List of dogs Deregistered?

[Eileen Stein]

I thought that there was one in Michigan who gained her ROM?

 

Kathy, I'm virtually 100% sure there hasn't been one. If you want to PM me with info, I'll follow up on it and correct myself if I'm wrong.

[jdarling]

Thanks for the response, Eileen. Yes, taking the leap into a full ban on dual registration would be nice, but I understand the issues with it. Hopefully, one day it will come to be.

 

Oh, I'm not surprised that lawsuit didn't happen. I laughed when I heard it.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Eileen can a person ROM their dog if it had belonged to MH? My friends Daughter is getting married and she will have time and money to devote to her dog training and trialing. Would that dog be allowed to be registered that way? I fell really bad she was taken by that woman.

[bcpon]

Oh well...why not! Ziiiiiip...flame suit is on and fireproofing has been applied. I am Laura Wright and I was blessed and incredibly lucky to own deregistered WW Keep N Bizzie. Bizzie was a small 18.38" almost smooth rough coat, with gigantic prick ears, and a split face to boot. She was also incredibly cute. She was my first border collie and was game for any bizarre activity I could think of. We played at some herding (she never ran in open), got her CD, did some agility, danced (never competed), played around in rally, and yes, I finished her AKC championship. For the record, her breeder said she didn't care if I showed her or not...it was my decision. My 1st breed was lhasa apsos and I have showed a few other breeds. Conformation was FAR removed from my mind when I got her. I was more interested in owning/training a dog that wanted to please me. After years of lhasas, it was a welcome breath of fresh air.

 

There is a woman down my neck of the woods who has imports and I ran into her frequently at shows. We debated working vs. conformation a few times....and quite frankly, I got tired of her and her dogs. Seriously...she was showing and finishing 16-17 inch bitches. She embodied all that I hated about conformation. I didn't have any more lhasas to show at the time and finally got to looking at Bizzie. Hmmm.....cute face....nice front.....little straight in the rear but not too bad....all those were positives. Now, she also was amazingly hairless on a good day, a split face, white factored with white spots in her hips and high white up her rear legs....not what you commonly see on show bred borders. However, I would have never changed a thing. I loved what was inside her head. I then read the AKC standard, such as it is, and figured why the hell not? At 6 I started showing her. We got dumped ALOT and certainly stood out....at 18" she was often the biggest bitch in the ring...BLECH!!! We did find some judges that liked her and put her up. The expressions on the other competitors faces when we won, was to me, worth all the deregistration in the world. One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.

 

We didn't change the world, nobody remembers when we were showing, but for the year or so we did it we had a blast. I spent HOURS at shows talking to the public and explaining why she didn't look like the others. People were really curious. I referred many people to rescues and working dog breeders. She finished her career with a Group 3...and loved every minute of it. She showed off, did tricks, ate in the ring and strutted her stuff a few weekends and spent the other part of the year racing around my field like a mad dog, going on sheep and ducks (loved ducks), doing agility, and being my best canine friend.

 

I very seldom post here and pondered whether or not to even write this. But then I figured why not? Why not say why I did it? In one word it was plain spite. I got so tired of hearing that woman brag brag brag. Would I have shown her if Bizzie wasn't having fun? Nope. Did I spend oodles of time grooming her? Nope. In fact, at one show I realized I hadn't washed her in about 2 mos. Oops.

 

Do I expect people to read this and go "wow...what you did is ok!" Absolutely not. I understand the position of people on this board and respect it. I also understood from the beginning what would happen if I finished her. I am proud of her offspring. One of her daughters did get her ABC registration via ROM. I have 3 bcs now...a Bizzie son and two granddaughters. Will I show them in conformation? Nah...once was enough. My youngest little girl is mighty cute and would probably finish...but I know the owners of her mom and dad would not like me to do it and I respect their wishes.

[bcpon]

Here are a couple of pictures of the girl. Lordy how I miss her.

 

Laura Wright

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eileen Stein]

Kathy, I'm virtually 100% sure there hasn't been one. If you want to PM me with info, I'll follow up on it and correct myself if I'm wrong.

 

Good thing I didn't say I was totally certain. There has been one offspring of a de-registered bitch registered via ROM, as Laura Wright just posted.

 

Eileen can a person ROM their dog if it had belonged to MH? My friends Daughter is getting married and she will have time and money to devote to her dog training and trialing. Would that dog be allowed to be registered that way? I fell really bad she was taken by that woman.

 

That probably depends on the particular facts. Feel free to PM me the details--dog's name, sire and dam, registration and ownership history; how, when and from whom your daughter got it--and I'll tell you what I can.

[sea4th]

Oh well...why not! Ziiiiiip...flame suit is on and fireproofing has been applied.

 

We did find some judges that liked her and put her up. The expressions on the other competitors faces when we won, was to me, worth all the deregistration in the world. One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.

 

No flames here and it sounds like Bizzie was one special dog for you. I haven't been in any sort of AKC venue in years. When I was, I couldn't stand by the ring where border collies were shown. It was pathetic, but I would have loved to have been by ringside to see what you described. I love the visual.

 

A person's first border collie brings about a whole new way of looking at things. It's when I got my Pete that I really, I mean really started to look, really see, and so I left the world of AKC and their conformation propaganda.

 

Thank you for sharing your story here.

[bcnewe2]

Ya know, I remember one of my first working dogs, before Mick, before any real working dog I had and the fact that I was so in love with this working breed, I wanted to do the same thing, How dare anyone say my dogs wasn't beautiful, I was sure if they saw him they would all change their minds. So glad I didn't choose to try and do that, but in a way, I'm glad to hear you did. Sorry it didn't make any long term difference to the oposition.

 

BTW, I've never spoken about that dog, as he was way to much dog for greener than green me, I was going about things all wrong and turning him into a killer bc. And I mean killer. I returned him to the breeder and waited till the right dog came along. Last I heard, the breeder trained him up and he lives on a large working cattle farm (guess he might be retired now). Right where he needed to be. He wasn't born a killer, but with my help he was on his way. I don't regret returning him ever, but now that I have a little experience behind me I find myself day dreaming about "what if", he was an awesome dog.

Thanks for sharing your story. it must have been bitter sweet.

[sea4th]

One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.

 

I betcha that judge wasn't asked to judge border collies again. G-d forbid that anything that looked like your dog should rock the boat of these insecure, narcissistic, ill informed fools.

[jdarling]

One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.

 

And therein lies the hypocrisy.

 

Would it be better if conformation folks were breeding to a standard that called for taller, shorter bodied dogs with less bone? Would it be better if what was being pranced around the ring actually looked like it could do the work? What is the difference between the conformation crowd claiming that their dogs look like they could work judging solely on their appearance ... and throwing a working bred dog in the ring and claiming that this (generic) dog could work judging solely on its appearance?

[sea4th]

And therein lies the hypocrisy.

 

Would it be better if conformation folks were breeding to a standard that called for taller, shorter bodied dogs with less bone? Would it be better if what was being pranced around the ring actually looked like it could do the work? What is the difference between the conformation crowd claiming that their dogs look like they could work judging solely on their appearance ... and throwing a working bred dog in the ring and claiming that this (generic) dog could work judging solely on its appearance?

 

 

Well, it's like someone mentioned before --- they (the confo culture) have it back - a$$wards. It's much easier that way --- ummm -- when you don't have to put your money where your mouth is.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.<<

 

Well, I would have said NEVER in a million years, that I agreed with an AKC judge.....but I guess it is the million year mark. Now they just need to toss in a herding test...aka PN level......

[ThunderHill]

I'll put on my asbestos undies, too.

 

I have one of Bizzie's grand-daughters. Joss is ABC registered. She's out of the Michigan bitch who was ROM after her mother (Laura's Bizzie) had been deregistered.

 

I'm pretty new to Border Collies. I had no idea of the story behind the registration issue (and not much notion of the whole political background) when I asked about one of these pups. The breeder didn't conceal anything from me, I just didn't think to inquire about registration status first. When I was told about the bitch's ROM, I actually kind of liked the idea, because to me it meant both parents were themselves considered competitive at the Open level. From what I can tell, ROM isn't handed out lightly, it has to be individually earned the hard way. The registration itself didn't matter that much to me. Livestock is interested in other things about your dog, not whether it comes with a specific piece of paper attached. I don't do conformation. I don't breed. I can compete in any non-AKC venue I'm interested in without any pre-existing registration number at all. So registration status wasn't a deciding factor for me.

 

I had spent time with several of the mother's close kin, liked their (work) style and temperaments; I'd seen the mother (and another relative, I think an aunt) in action in Open; and the stud dog was well qualified at the top working level too, as far as I'm capable of evaluating. All the health testing had been done, all my kennel- and nurture-related questions were answered in ways I found satisfying. So I got one of the pups.

 

Joss is an absolute delight to be around in general. No conformation dog, with her narrow head, turned out rear toes, and long but wispy coat. She's very sweet and charming (in fact, rather manipulative sometimes), very determined, and very steady. Very focused when she's on the job, but a good team player. At this early stage, she's turning out quite nice on sheep, both at home and when I've been able to work her elsewhere. I have 13 acres and 25 mixed-breed-mostly-hair sheep, with lambs on the way in early April. Just a "hobby farm" but the chores my dogs help me with are real, even if they're small scale. I don't know if Joss could do a free-standing pen on a trial field right now (she hasn't seen one yet) but she's helped me stuff a bunch of unwilling, panicky lambs into a dark barn through a narrow door after nightfall in nasty ice storms a couple of times already. I can stand in the yard and send her off straight across two paddocks with their gates open, and trust her to bend out and go around the sheep to fetch them, after she gets through the final gate and there's room to go wide. I've asked her to go into the barn when the wrong door got left open, and she's driven hungry, obstinate ewes out from among the haybales in extremely close quarters without losing her head or using her teeth. She'll go round in a pen without blowing up. She can push my flock through the deep bog they don't like to cross, out in the open. She's been butted (lightly) and taken note without losing her confidence. She's just a beginner and her work is far from perfect, and there are plenty of chores I still prefer to get my older dog out for. But those are the kind of things that make me very happy about any new partnership. We're signed up to work at a couple of clinics (Lyle Lad, Kathy Knox) in the months ahead. I plan to run her in some novice trials later this year, depending on my time and finances. My crystal ball doesn't see any farther ahead than that.

 

I understand the Read This First for the BC Boards, and I'm not here to pick any quarrels. The AKC conformation world makes me sad, and not just on behalf of Border Collies. I didn't get a dog with a partial AKC background on purpose to try to make any statements or prove any points. I just thought I'd speak up about the existence of this (ABC registered) dog and my particular situation.

 

Liz Sharpe

Gift & Joss

 

* * * * *

 

 

Oh well...why not! Ziiiiiip...flame suit is on and fireproofing has been applied. I am Laura Wright and I was blessed and incredibly lucky to own deregistered WW Keep N Bizzie. Bizzie was a small 18.38" almost smooth rough coat, with gigantic prick ears, and a split face to boot. She was also incredibly cute. She was my first border collie and was game for any bizarre activity I could think of. We played at some herding (she never ran in open), got her CD, did some agility, danced (never competed), played around in rally, and yes, I finished her AKC championship. For the record, her breeder said she didn't care if I showed her or not...it was my decision. My 1st breed was lhasa apsos and I have showed a few other breeds. Conformation was FAR removed from my mind when I got her. I was more interested in owning/training a dog that wanted to please me. After years of lhasas, it was a welcome breath of fresh air.

 

There is a woman down my neck of the woods who has imports and I ran into her frequently at shows. We debated working vs. conformation a few times....and quite frankly, I got tired of her and her dogs. Seriously...she was showing and finishing 16-17 inch bitches. She embodied all that I hated about conformation. I didn't have any more lhasas to show at the time and finally got to looking at Bizzie. Hmmm.....cute face....nice front.....little straight in the rear but not too bad....all those were positives. Now, she also was amazingly hairless on a good day, a split face, white factored with white spots in her hips and high white up her rear legs....not what you commonly see on show bred borders. However, I would have never changed a thing. I loved what was inside her head. I then read the AKC standard, such as it is, and figured why the hell not? At 6 I started showing her. We got dumped ALOT and certainly stood out....at 18" she was often the biggest bitch in the ring...BLECH!!! We did find some judges that liked her and put her up. The expressions on the other competitors faces when we won, was to me, worth all the deregistration in the world. One person actually asked the judge why they put her up and the judge, bless him, said that she was the only dog in the ring that looked like she could physically do the work she was supposed to. He said their bitches were too short, too long, and had too much bone. I just stood and grinned.

 

We didn't change the world, nobody remembers when we were showing, but for the year or so we did it we had a blast. I spent HOURS at shows talking to the public and explaining why she didn't look like the others. People were really curious. I referred many people to rescues and working dog breeders. She finished her career with a Group 3...and loved every minute of it. She showed off, did tricks, ate in the ring and strutted her stuff a few weekends and spent the other part of the year racing around my field like a mad dog, going on sheep and ducks (loved ducks), doing agility, and being my best canine friend.

 

I very seldom post here and pondered whether or not to even write this. But then I figured why not? Why not say why I did it? In one word it was plain spite. I got so tired of hearing that woman brag brag brag. Would I have shown her if Bizzie wasn't having fun? Nope. Did I spend oodles of time grooming her? Nope. In fact, at one show I realized I hadn't washed her in about 2 mos. Oops.

 

Do I expect people to read this and go "wow...what you did is ok!" Absolutely not. I understand the position of people on this board and respect it. I also understood from the beginning what would happen if I finished her. I am proud of her offspring. One of her daughters did get her ABC registration via ROM. I have 3 bcs now...a Bizzie son and two granddaughters. Will I show them in conformation? Nah...once was enough. My youngest little girl is mighty cute and would probably finish...but I know the owners of her mom and dad would not like me to do it and I respect their wishes.

[SoloRiver]

To put this into perspective, let's use an even better example of breed ring inanity: the conformation greyhound. OK, so you breed a dog so that it looks like it's fast. To "look as though" it could run fast, in theory, if it were actually to run.

 

???

 

Does this make any sense? It's not like this is difficult to test -- why not take them out there and see how fast they actually run and select based on that? Oh yeah, that's right. There are these other greyhound breeders (not that I am supporting dog racing) who actually do that!

 

And running fast is a skill that requires such a specialized morphology that it is possible to know it when you see it, at least in a general sense (i.e., "greyhound-shaped"). Working livestock is an entirely different matter -- so how would you select a dog to "look as though" it could herd sheep, in theory, if it were to herd sheep?

 

What on earth does it mean to say one dog "looks like it could do the job" in this context, and another does not? Doesn't the range of variation found in working Border Collies argue against this? There are plenty of excellent working dogs out there who could walk into a conformation ring without getting laughed out of it, just as there are dogs who look like my Jett and resemble a slick black jackal on stilts. (Jett is gorgeous, by the way.)

 

I find some satisfaction in the mental image of snooty dog fanciers getting their noses put out of joint by a working-bred dog beating their Barbies in the ring, but I don't think it really makes any larger point (and I think that Laura knows that too). You can't recognize working ability in the show ring, and that's that.

 

You could pick the ugliest dog in the ring every single time and it wouldn't make you any more likely to be selecting the best working dog.

 

If you lined five of the all-time greats up in a show ring would you be able to pick on the basis of looks? Which one of them "looked as though" he could do the work? Would you be able to pick between Wisp and Wilson's Spot? (Both extremely handsome dogs, by the way.) OK, what about Spot vs. Thomas' Don? Wasn't Don real ugly or something? Does that mean he was the better working dog?

 

What algorithm would you use? "Least coat" = "best working dog?" "Weediest" = "best working dog?"

 

See the problem here?

 

I am not saying that I think Laura did an evil thing by putting Bizzie in the ring. I can totally understand the motivation and in her position with her experiences I could easily see myself doing exactly the same thing. But playing by those rules tells you nothing about how to judge the true worth of a working dog. There's only one way to do that, and that is to work it.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

OK, I have a few questions....is Bizzie from working line or show lines?

 

Is she a working bred Border Collie that went into the show ring?

 

Or is she from the show lines?

 

Diane~

[bcpon]

Well, let's see. Hopefully I can answer the questions. First of all, in pointing out what the judge said, I certainly didn't mean to say that working ability can be assessed by looks. You can't judge working ability based on looks. When I decided to enter Bizzie in conformation I knew she was going to be judged against a written standard and that I was basically paying for one person's opinion on a given day. Honestly, the opinion didn't mean much to me in the end. I didn't expect to change the big picture but we had fun. My opinion and personal value of Bizzie didn't change at all whether she was a breed champion or not. I have to admit, also, that after years of showing grumpy lhasas, it was fun to show a dog that was SO MUCH FUN. It's not rocket science, but she free stacked, baited, moved around the ring on a loose lead (actually would have done it without one), and barked on command. There were many judges that enjoyed seeing her in the ring because she was actually animated and enjoying herself. Most show border collies look really flat in the ring.

 

Bizzie's dam's side is all working lines. Her father was a Wynsota dog (old obedience lines) and some working lines. Bogey had his breed championship but wasn't bred for conformation. I think his owner just decided to put him the ring when bcs got full breed recognition. He was an obedience dog. While there were other dogs on her sire's side with obedience titles, none had breed championships. Bizzie was sort of the anti-glamorous show dog. Many judges weren't quite sure what do to because they knew she wasn't a smooth but she certainly had no hair. One well respected judge gave us the class and said she was a lovely bitch, too bad she was out of coat. I smiled, thanked her for my bookmark...oops...ribbon, and said that's as much hair as she ever had....with border collies it didn't matter.

 

I'm the 1st to agree that with border collies it's what's between their ears that counts. You shouldn't breed for looks...long legs...short legs...whatever. But I thought it might interest people as to why I chose to do it.

[Eileen Stein]

I appreciate your posting, but I guess it doesn't help me understand why you pursued a conformation title. When a judge put up your dog over the braggart's dog, what did it prove? When another judge put up the braggart's dog over your dog, what did it prove? The standard is meaningless, nearly all the judges are ignorant about border collies, and the ring doesn't permit anything worthwhile to be demonstrated. All I can see that you did was to submit to the jurisdiction of a court that is incompetent to judge, and thereby give it a little more status and a little more money. Aren't there a zillion other ways to have fun with your dog, without lending your little bit of support to a system with so much potential to harm our breed?

[herdcentral]

I understand the whole conformation thing but if a dual registered dog has already proven its ability to work and just happens to do well in conformation why is it deregistered?. I know that it goes against the grain on principle, but if the dog is a good worker, does it really matter?, Isnt it the working genes that really matter.

 

I dont understand why they just dont split the registers and allow and either or registration.

[Eileen Stein]

I understand the whole conformation thing but if a dual registered dog has already proven its ability to work and just happens to do well in conformation why is it deregistered?. I know that it goes against the grain on principle, but if the dog is a good worker, does it really matter?, Isnt it the working genes that really matter.

 

In Post #24 in this thread, I tried to explain that. It may be harder to understand if you're in a country where the show Border Collie has already become so dominant.

 

I dont understand why they just dont split the registers and allow and either or registration.

 

The ABCA is a working registry and has no interest in registering conformation dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register. The AKC, on the other hand, wants to pretend there is no difference between working-bred dogs and conformation-bred dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register either. As far as I'm concerned the best we can hope for is the kind of "split register" where the conformation dogs register only with the AKC and the working dogs register only with the ABCA.

[herdcentral]

In Post #24 in this thread, I tried to explain that. It may be harder to understand if you're in a country where the show Border Collie has already become so dominant.

The ABCA is a working registry and has no interest in registering conformation dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register. The AKC, on the other hand, wants to pretend there is no difference between working-bred dogs and conformation-bred dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register either. As far as I'm concerned the best we can hope for is the kind of "split register" where the conformation dogs register only with the AKC and the working dogs register only with the ABCA.

 

Yes I see, I went back and had another read.

 

I am puzzled as to why anyone would want to be registered on both registers. Where I live it seems that dogs registered on working bred registers are allowed to compete in sporting events such as agility and obedience run by our ANKC with out having to be dual registered as long as their owners are members and the dog is already on a recognised register, such as a working breed register.

 

I myself have a show bred BC (my first BC) and had a go at showing when she was a baby but found the whole notion rather pointless for all the reasons explained on this board. The judge thought she was too lean, long in the face and well muscled anyway. It is all a learning experience for me having never owned a BC before.

 

The more I have come to know about the BC I actually find the working bred dogs more attractive to look at than than the show breds. I never actually wanted a BC and came upon mine accidentally and have come to love the breed, but I do love to watch the working bred dogs.

[Journey]

Laura, great post and thanks for sharing!

 

I think with what she has explained and told us it actually helps the cause for de-registering and shows the importance of the working lines. Too many times I've heard "what a shame the ABCA will loose out on this magnificent breed specimen..." and in Laura's case, the offspring had the prove themselves. Not only did one prove them-self it brought that line "back" into the ABCA, working lines where they belong.

 

Karen

[bcpon]

I appreciate your posting, but guess I still can't understand why you pursued a conformation title. When a judge put up your dog over the braggart's dog, what did it prove? When another judge put up the braggart's dog over your dog, what did it prove? The standard is meaningless, nearly all the judges are ignorant about border collies, and the ring doesn't permit anything worthwhile to be demonstrated. All I can see you did was submit to the jurisdiction of a court that is incompetent to judge, and thereby give it a little more status and a little more money. Aren't there a zillion other ways to have fun with your dog, without lending your little bit of support to a system with so much potential to harm our breed?

 

I posted because I was reading a thread where deregistered dogs were listed and there were various theories put forth as to why people would do this. I figured I would tell why. Not to justify what I did....not to say "I'm not a bad person," but simply to say why I made the decision I did. What did I prove by showing? Not a darn thing! I never intended to prove a darn thing...well, maybe just one thing, to one person, and I did that. I didn't prove anything to judges...I didn't prove anything to other exhibitors. Maybe I had an impact on some of the spectators I spoke to ringside....maybe not....I don't know. You're right....the standard is rubbish....and by looking at my current bc pack, it's obvious that I'm not obtaining borders in an effort to fit that standard.

 

I had a border collie that I competed with in events sponsored by different organizations...some of which were AKC. I'm actually rather neutral on the AKC and place the blame for many breeds' demise on the breeders and exhibitors. The AKC really doesn't give a damn what people show...they want money. I knew that going in. Why did I attend AKC conformation events? It has nothing to do with border collies, but I don't mind sharing. I married into a family that showed dogs...lhasa apsos. I always liked dogs so I figured why not do it, too. In the years that I showed lhasas I met some not so nice people (as you find everywhere), and I also met some amazing people. These are friends (many 20-30 years older than me) that I traveled with, gossiped with, and shared many a happy moment with. I was never enamored with AKC...I never thought a breed championship made my dogs "better," I just liked hanging out with my dogs. I did some obedience with my lhasas, but let's face it....there aren't nearly as many venues available to compete with when you own lhasas as there are with border collies. (Although one of my lhasas did get to go on sheep.) My tastes started to turn from conformation to performance venues and I got Bizzie. My lhasas grew older and passed away. I still went to shows so I could see friends and keep up with them. I figured I'd show Bizzie since I was at the shows anyway (conformation shows are pretty boring and I liked having Biz along for company). I also got a chance to visit with my mother-in-law at shows. And, well, to be honest, if we visited at shows, she didn't have to come to my house and I didn't have to go to hers. Like many an alpha bitch, we got a long much better on neutral territory! Realistically, my $28.00 a day didn't make a difference to the vast and glorious AKC one way or another. I did get to see people that had been incredibly kind to me, that lived far away from me, and were unlikely to come to USDAA agility trials or sheep trials. From the 85 year old woman who wore flip flops in the ring and lived her life the way she darn well wanted to (whether you liked it or not!!) to the gentleman in Texas, an Apache Indian, who made me laugh so hard at dinner I almost fell out of chair, my lhasa friends were wonderful people. Sadly, many of them are no longer here, and their passing, like the passing of Bizzie, has left a huge hole in my heart. On the positive side I've also met some incredible people through border collies, agility, and herding....and life moves on!

 

Whew...long posts....I apologize. Again, bottom line...I'm not soliciting approval for what I did, and I don't know the reasoning others had for finishing dogs....but I figured I could tell you my story. The story behind one dog and owner on the "Deregistration List."

 

Ok...and it was SO much fun to beat that woman's dogs. I guess we all have our petty moments.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think one point that should be made. I certainly can't speak for every judge, and nothing is certain in this world, but it's much less likely that today a dog like Bizzie would get finished, shown in that way, casually, and in total defiance of what's now accepted as "showable" in today's ring. We're talking a few years ago, right? Back then there was also a smooth coat that was shown quite often (Dice?), and when was the last time anyone saw a smooth put up?

 

Even half a dozen years has changed the expectations of judges - and this will continue in favor of "showy" qualities and discouraging anything else.

 

What if someone had a dog like Bizzie, and was just a little more serious about showing, and meet's today's expectations that there should be more coat, more symmetry of markings, nicer head, smaller build, etc? That bitch fails to achieve her championship, but she has someone approach her owner - "We could breed her to X dog and I bet that dog would correct some of her failings - she's so close after all!"

 

Hey, why not? So our bitch has a litter and they are capable of winning shows. But why were these pups bred? With optimum working ability in mind? No, of course not, we introduced several other factors.

 

That's what Eileen means by "going down the road." Today's standards are quite a bit more rigorous and will get more so, and will pull the entire AKC breed along with it. Just as we've said many times about the working breed, the more specific and rigorous the standard at the top is, the more the entire breed will be influenced by it. And since there's no line between working and non-working bred dogs, the whole thing gets very mushy between conformation and working.

[Pearse]

In Post #24 in this thread, I tried to explain that. It may be harder to understand if you're in a country where the show Border Collie has already become so dominant.

The ABCA is a working registry and has no interest in registering conformation dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register. The AKC, on the other hand, wants to pretend there is no difference between working-bred dogs and conformation-bred dogs, so they would not want to maintain a split register either. As far as I'm concerned the best we can hope for is the kind of "split register" where the conformation dogs register only with the AKC and the working dogs register only with the ABCA.

 

Eileen, I disagree. The ABCA is not a working registry. The ABCA is a registry that supports the idea of the Border Collie as a working breed, and manifests that support through educational activities and providing money to the National Finals but it is not a registry of working dogs.

 

There is no requirement for registry with the ABCA that a dog be "working bred". Simply that its parents were ABCA registered or registered with a registry with which the ABCA has reciprocation (ISDS, CBCA).

 

The ABCA permits dual registration. Therefore, I could breed and show for conformation all I want and still register my dogs with the ABCA. The only time a dog will be deregistered is if it happens to win a conformation championship. Or, I could breed my dogs for agility, or color, or flyball, and still register ABCA.

 

I understand all of the reasons why "working tests" are untenable and, in the main, I agree with that position. I also understand the difficulties in preventing dual registration (although I believe that were the will to do so there, it could be done).

 

But it is misleading to say that the ABCA today is a working registry since there is absolutely no requirement that a dog registered there have any demonstrated working ability, or that its parents or grandparents have any documented working ability.

 

Pearse

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, I disagree. The ABCA is not a working registry. The ABCA is a registry that supports the idea of the Border Collie as a working breed, and manifests that support through educational activities and providing money to the National Finals but it is not a registry of working dogs.

 

You apparently are using a different definition of "working registry" than I am. The ABCA exists to register, support and promote the working border collie, advocates breeding border collies only for working ability, and in conjunction with the USBCHA supports a system for assessing and demonstrating working ability. It accords recognition for working achievement, and for no other kind of canine achievement. In my opinion (and in the ABCA's opinion) that makes it a working registry. I consider the ISDS a working registry, for the same reason. You apparently feel that unless it could somehow ensure that all its members were breeding only for working ability and/or it required the passing of a working test by all dogs it registered, it is not a working registry. That would be one definition of a working registry, but IMO that is not the only definition of a working registry.

 

Would you agree that the AKC is a conformation registry? I guess not, because they can't ensure that all their breeders breed for the standard they advocate, and they will register dogs without imposing a test for whether they meet the breed standard. But I have no hesitation in calling them a conformation registry, because conformation is their supreme value and raison d'etre, as working ability is ours.

 

I also understand the difficulties in preventing dual registration (although I believe that were the will to do so there, it could be done).

 

There I am in fervent agreement with you. But it sounds as if banning dual registration would not get ABCA any closer to being a working registry in your conception of what that means.