List of dogs Deregistered?

[Katelynn & Gang]

Hey,

 

Just wondering . . .

 

How does the public find out which dogs and breeders have had dogs deregistered with the ABCA because of Conformation Championships?

 

Katelynn

[wildairbc]

Why do you care?

[Katelynn & Gang]

If there were such a list of deregistered dogs with their sire's names (ABCA/and AKC if any), dam's names (ABCA/and AKC if any), breeder's name/s and owner's name/s available to the public (being either requested or posted), maybe it would make breeders of working ABCA dogs think twice about doing conformation with their own dogs, out crossing to conformation dogs, and/or about allowing their puppies to go into homes where they would possibly be shown in conformation events.

 

I believe that it is owed to the ranchers and farmers of America to help ensure they are indeed buying what the ABCA registry promotes as a working dog. To ensure this, I believe that such a list (being either requested or posted) of dogs, sires, dams, breeders, and owners that support conformation events and have had dogs deregistered with the ABCA because so, would be helpful to these ranchers and farms that look to the ABCA registry (and not to the AKC) for guidance in what is and is not a working dog.

 

Just a thought or maybe a idea.

 

I was just wondering, so I thought I'd ask if there was any such information available to the public.

 

Katelynn

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's a legitimate question Katelynn.

 

J.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Thanks Julie,

 

I also think it is also a legitimate question because as of now, there is no solid proof to the public that dogs are being deregistered because of conformation.

 

I believe such a list as I described above would be a highly valuable asset to the ABCA and the future of the Border Collie as a working dog/breed.

 

After all, seeing IS believing.

 

Katelynn

[Sue R]

Makes sense to me. Why should it bother any one if such a list is available to the "public"?

 

So, I wonder what the answer is, and where the information is available.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Doesn't the ABCA pulish this information in its newsletters - not a cumulative list, just an announcement?

 

It would be easy enough to go to back issues and compile a list if this is the case.

 

I'm not sure how useful this would be to your average farm dog breeder, and how often the situation Katelynn describes comes up. Most AKC breeders looking to get workings lines into their breeding, look to trial dogs and "crossover" dogs - in these cases the breedings are done with eyes wide open on both sides.

 

It's just a fact that there's been no clear line drawn up to now - anything goes. It's hard to explain to the owners of stud dogs why it makes a difference what registry the pups sired by their dogs are going to end up in.

[Eileen Stein]

A total of 21 dogs have been de-registered by the ABCA as a result of becoming conformation champions since January 1, 2004 (17 of them got their championships in 2004, and only 4 of them since then). In the following list, the dogs' names given are AKC names, with the ABCA name in parentheses:

 

Quail Creek's Quantum Leap (Beckette)

Owner: Kathy Ferruzza

Breeders: Joan Fouty & Doug Fouty

Sire: Rio Run Gill

Dam: Chic

 

D And K's Tuff E Nuff (D & K Tuff E Nuff)

Owners: Megan Preuit & Kyle Preuit

Breeder: Jay Mannon

Sire: CH D And K's Grizzly Bear

Dam: Tio's Shilo

 

Domino Diego II (DominoDiego II)

Owners: Tom Wolan & Susan Wolan

Breeder: Richard Swafford

Sire: Ben

Dam: Pebbles

 

Dooly (Dooly)

Owners: Amy Andrews & Sandra Lindenmuth (Amy Andrews)

Breeder: Linda Baron

Sire: WW-Zippitydodah

Dam: O'Brae Lyric

 

Hieyeq Ewe PS (HiEyeQ Ewe PS)

Owners: Barbara Palmer & Kelly J. Whiteman

Breeder: Rodney Cotton

Sire: CH Spot VIII

Dam: Mist

 

Hob Nob Perfect Plan (Hobnobprfctplan)

Owners: Gail L. Smith & Janice DeMello (Jan DeMello)

Breeder: W.D. Oliver

Sire: Bill

Dam: Molly

 

K And G's Golden Kai-Tastrophy (Kai-Tastrophe)

Owners: Kathy Sedeyn & Glenn Sedeyn

Breeders: Kathy Sedeyn & Glenn Sedeyn

Sire: Timberwood's Indigo

Dam: Holly II

 

Lock-Eye Perfect Cut (LockeyeDiamond)

Owner: Debbie Willoughby

Breeder: Michelle Weese

Sire: Lock-Eye Lazer

Dam: Fa Sheena

 

Lock-Eye Bedazzled (Lock-Eye Jewel)

Owners: Beverly Schulz & Debbie Willoughby

Breeder: Michelle Weese

Sire: Rockin G Colt

Dam: Lock-Eye Dazzel

 

Marley's Ghost (Marley's Ghost)

Owner: Barbara J. Hooper

Breeder: Darrell S. Gibson

Sire: Jim

Dam: Callee

 

Max (Max)

Owner: Janet Ribeiro

Breeder: Karen Robinson

Sire: Imp Indam Moss

Dam: Fortora's Sierra

 

On The Lamb Jet (On the Lamb Jet)

Owner: Kathie Woods

Breeder: Robin Penland

Sire: Legends Black Shadow

Dam: On The Lamb Spil

 

Onthelamb Ruff (Onthe lamb Ruff)

Owner: Debra Tabor (Robin Penland)

Breeder: Robin L. Penland

Sire: Cap VII

Dam: Tess XIX

 

Peg (Peg)

Owner: Dr. Emily Czapek

Breeder: Russell McCord

Sire: Stetson

Dam: Panna

 

Quid Pro Quo (Quid Pro Quo)

Owner: Pamela R. Sturtz

Breeder: Cheryl Jagger Williams

Sire: Tide

Dam: Scotia Dot

 

Riverstone Jen (Riverstone Jen)

Owner: Patricia Whitley

Breeder: Lisa Webb

Sire: Gel

Dam: Abbie

 

Sheepy Corner Bet On Two (SC Duce)

Owner: Susane C. Joura-Hoffman & Inger Joura (Susane C. Hoffman)

Breeder: Susane Hoffman

Sire: Dice

Dam: Ris'nsun Wisper

 

Setnsun Storm Rider (SetNSun Rider)

Owners: Duane A. Loomis & Cheryl L. Loomis

Breeders: Duane A. Loomis & Cheryl L. Loomis

Sire: CH Ranger

Dam: Autumn Winds

 

Sharin's Anna (Sharin's Anna)

Owner: Sharon Bauer

Breeder: Cheryl Jagger Williams

Sire: Andy

Dam: Dot

 

WW Keep N Bizzie (WW Keep N Bizze)

Owners: Laura O. Wright & Sandra Lindenmuth (Alan & Laura Wright)

Breeder: Sandra Lindenmuth

Sire: CH Wynsota's One Over Par

Dam: WW Splash Dash

 

XP Strait (XP Strait)

Owner: Lacey Herbel

Breeder: Carolyn A. Herbel

Sire: CH Skeet

Dam: Sadie

 

*****EDITED TO ADD LATER DE-REGISTRATIONS:

 

Blackwood Sport (Blackwoodsport) 4/06

Owner: Holley Grooms

Breeder: Sarah E. Blackwood

Sire: Tell

Dam: Blackwood Babe

 

Oxfords Race For The Roses (Oxford's Race) 8/06

Owner: Kirsten Cole-MacMurray & Gayle Oxford

Breeder: Gayle Oxford & Shannon Oxford

Sire: Oxford's Bailey

Dam: Belle

 

Colters Skylar (Colters Skylar) 9/06

Owner: Mary Thompson

Breeder: Edie Weimer

Sire: NJ Colter

Dam: Kowkutter Kate

 

Buddy (Buddy) 1/07

Owner: Suzy Walker

Breeder: George H Martin

Sire: Dally IV

Dam: Mattie III

 

Astonclan's Owen Glendower (Poe) 4/07

Owner: Michael Aston & Joyce Aston (Joyce Aston)

Breeder: Michael G Aston

Sire: Chub

Dam: Maggie Whye

 

Lock-Eye Solar Ember (Lock Eye Ember) 4/07

Owner: Karen Clymer

Breeder: Michelle Weese

Sire: Lock-Eye Lazer

Dam: Lock-Eye Smooch

 

Skyland Ricochet (Skyland Rick) 9/07

Owner: Gerianne F Darnell

Breeder: Gerianne F Darnell & Sheryl K Day

Sire: CH Ettrick On Edge

Dam: Cyd's Sheba

 

Billabong Noah (Billabong Noah) 10/09

Owner: Tracy Miller

Breeder: Tracy Miller

Sire: CH Moss

Dam: Flit

 

Tess XXVI (Tess) 2/11

Owner: Rochelle Fugate

Breeder: Diana Henderson

Sire: Taff

Dam: Kelly III

[jdarling]

Eileen - were there many dogs de-registered since the last update?

[stockdogranch]

Eileen--thanks for the list. Makes for really interesting reading. There are some folks on there, shown as breeders of the sire or dam, who I'm sure are NOT pleased. Kinda makes ya not want to sell a dog--ever,

 

A

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Eileen--thanks for the list. Makes for really interesting reading. There are some folks on there, shown as breeders of the sire or dam, who I'm sure are NOT pleased. Kinda makes ya not want to sell a dog--ever,

 

A

 

 

Wow there is a dog realted to my dog Dally on there. He was named after George Martins dog.

[Lewie'sMom]

I'm really ignorant about what's being discussed here. Could somebody give me the layman's explaination please?

 

And thanks.

[juliepoudrier]

Patty,

The ABCA decided to deregister any dual-registered dogs who earned their KC conformation chanpionship. The dogs on Eileen's list (and their progeny) cannot be ABCA registered. Here's the exact wording from the ABCA website:

 

Concerned with the dangers of conformation breeding to the Border Collie, the ABCA Directors have voted to clarify our registration policy.

"The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently the ABCA will only register dogs or bitches whose ancestors are registered with the working registries with the same strict working goals as the International Sheepdog Society and the American Border Collie Association.

Dogs or bitches registered with any registry that promotes conformation showing of Border Collies (American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, the Kennel Club (UK), Federacion Cynologique Internationale, Australian, or New Zealand Kennel Clubs, etc) will not be registered unless they are also registered by an acceptable working registry.

The ABCA will deregister any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a 'Conformation Champion' by a conformation registry."

 

Also note that ABCA has stated in its Registration on Merit rules that no dog can be ROMed if it has been previously deregistered.

 

J.

[Lewie'sMom]

Thanks for the explanation, Julie. It makes sense and speaks highly of the ABCA's integrity and dedication to keep the BC a healthy working breed.

 

Now, if I could just find a trial/demonstration close enough to my neck of the woods to witness it first hand.

[PennyT]

I read somewhere recently that progeny of deregistered dogs have come back in through the ROM program. Is that correct?

 

Penny

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Wow...one of the dogs de-registered is a full sibling (same litter?) to one of my dogs. My dog has never been AKC registered. I doubt mine could win in the conformation ring though. Look at what happens when people don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

[Northof49]

A total of 21 dogs have been de-registered by the ABCA as a result of becoming conformation champions since January 1, 2004 (17 of them got their championships in 2004, and only 4 of them since then). In the following list, the dogs' names given are AKC names, with the ABCA name in parentheses:

 

Skyland Ricochet (Skyland Rick) 9/07

Owner: Gerianne F Darnell

Breeder: Gerianne F Darnell & Sheryl K Day

Sire: CH Ettrick On Edge

Dam: Cyd's Sheba

 

 

Should CH Ettrick On Edge not be de-registered as well?

[Laurae]

Not if he got his Ch before the rule went into effect in 2004.

[sea4th]

I read somewhere recently that progeny of deregistered dogs have come back in through the ROM program. Is that correct?

 

Penny

 

If you've got the dog, the time and money, the ROM is still no cake walk, so if the progeny of a deregistered dog can successfully complete the requirements to be ROM'd, as long as they don't have the "CH" moniker, then what would be wrong with that? Should they get that CH later on down the road, then they'd also be deregistered.

[PennyT]

If you've got the dog, the time and money, the ROM is still no cake walk, so if the progeny of a deregistered dog can successfully complete the requirements to be ROM'd, as long as they don't have the "CH" moniker, then what would be wrong with that? Should they get that CH later on down the road, then they'd also be deregistered.

 

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. In fact, I approve. I wish to know if it is a fact that progeny of deregistered dogs can be registered via ROM.

[Eileen Stein]

Jodi,

 

The above list is up to date as far as AKC Champions are concerned. There have been two additional de-registrations:

 

Name:

Red-Dawn's I Love Lucy

(FCI conformation championship)

Owner: Alicia Ward, Sandy Blundell & Katie Blundell

Breeder: Alicia Ward

Sire: Red Dawn Paris

Dam: Red Hot Ember

 

Name:

Red Dawns Bree

(UKC conformation championship)

Owner: Alicia Ward

Breeder: John T Wilson

Sire: Imp Sam

Dam: Imp Floss

 

*****EDITED TO ADD LATER DE-REGISTRATIONS

 

Name:

Old Oaks Fuego

(UKC conformation championship)

Owner: Robin/Mike Abbott

Breeder: Robin/Mike Abbott

Sire: SM Stink

Dam: Rockin G Flo

 

Name:

Old Oaks Chica

(UKC conformation champion)

Owner: Robin/Mike Abbott

Breeder: Robin/Mike Abbott

Sire: SM Stink

Dam: Rockin G Flo

 

Penny,

 

The offspring of conformation champions are eligible for ROM if they are not themselves conformation champions. To date, no offspring of a de-registered dog has been registered via ROM.

[jdarling]

Thank you, Eileen. What is FCI? Also, what do you attibute to the virtual disappearance of AKC de-registrations? Do you think that the "We have dual registered dogs!" breeders that show in conformation have dropped their ABCA registrations and went strictly AKC? Or are there dogs out there who may have become AKC champions, but their names are so vastly different, and the ABCA doesn't have the manpower to enforce it? Has their been a significant decrease in overall registrations since the rule went into effect, and if so, would you attribute that to the implementation of the new rule? When the rule initially went into effect, I thought I remember hearing grumblings about a lawsuit by a conformation handler. Did that ever happen, and if so, what was the outcome?

[KathyF]

Penny,

 

The offspring of conformation champions are eligible for ROM if they are not themselves conformation champions. To date, no offspring of a de-registered dog has been registered via ROM.

 

 

I thought that there was one in Michigan who gained her ROM?

 

Kathy

[Eileen Stein]

Just wanted to add this fuller explanation, taken from a previous thread, of why the ABCA de-registers conformation champions:

 

The kennel club model for breeding -- adopting an appearance standard for the breed, breeding to conform to it, and judging and rewarding the dogs who conform best -- is contrary to the development of a good working breed. Working breeds which have been taken into kennel clubs and subjected to this reward system for conformation breeding have all, over time, suffered loss of their inbred working ability. We simply do not want that to happen to our dogs.

 

Entering a border collie in conformation shows, competing for a conformation title, and advertising a border collie as a conformation champion all lend legitimacy to the idea that an appearance standard is an appropriate measure by which to judge a border collie. That is a destructive idea, and one that we cannot allow to take hold in our gene pool. The more firmly the idea takes hold that the conformation ring is a valid measure of quality, the more breeders will buy into this notion and will breed to conform to the appearance standard that is rewarded there, and the more our breed's working ability will deteriorate over time. If working ability is to be preserved in our breed, the border collie must be judged by a working standard

and by no other

. The working standard must be our only standard of excellence.

 

Dogs shown to their championship are excluded from ABCA registration not because it's impossible today for an individual dog to possess working ability as well as an appearance that is rewarded in the breed ring, but because of the impact that conformation showing, breeding and judging of border collies will have on the descendants of those dogs in the long run. When border collies are shown in conformation they are placed on a different path, one which will make not them but their descendants a different kind of dog. Once a dog is placed on that path, and shown to a conformation championship, we believe that in the interests of preserving herding excellence in the breed he should not remain in the working registry.

[Eileen Stein]

Thank you, Eileen. What is FCI?

 

Federation Cynologique Internationale. It's an international kennel club, based in Europe. It runs or coordinates worldwide KC-type competitions (like the world agility trials, I believe).

 

Also, what do you attibute to the virtual disappearance of AKC de-registrations? Do you think that the "We have dual registered dogs!" breeders that show in conformation have dropped their ABCA registrations and went strictly AKC? Or are there dogs out there who may have become AKC champions, but their names are so vastly different, and the ABCA doesn't have the manpower to enforce it?

 

I think that everyone now knows that they will lose their ABCA registration if their dog gets a CH, so people who value ABCA registration are no longer showing in conformation. Those people tended to be the obedience/agility core of the BCSA, with dual-registered dogs, who were keen on proving their dogs' "versatility." (Those people may also not be showing in conformation so much anymore for a separate unrelated reason -- unhappiness with the way conformation is playing out for the breed.) The dedicated conformation people who had dual-registered dogs never cared much about having an ABCA registration, so they just stopped registering with ABCA. The number of conformation championships awarded to Border Collies has not diminished at all -- it is slowly increasing. But the championships are going to non dual-registered dogs. So I guess in a way the rule did make people choose, according to where their priorities lay. As you know, I wish we had forced that kind of choice with regard to dual registration, but we didn't.

 

I don't think it's an enforcement issue -- I think the ABCA has missed few, if any, AKC championships awarded to ABCA dogs.

 

Has their been a significant decrease in overall registrations since the rule went into effect, and if so, would you attribute that to the implementation of the new rule?

 

There has been a recent decrease in overall registrations, but there were other contemporaneous factors (e.g., investigations and expulsions of several puppy millers, which not only resulted in the loss of those millers' future registrations but also registrations from apprehensive colleagues of theirs; the rule requiring that pups be registered by their breeder; dogs dual registering with AKC who later are bred, and whose breeders see no need to register their offspring anywhere but AKC; the declining economy, etc.) which makes it hard to attribute the decrease to this particular rule. I actually think very little of the decrease is attributable to the policy of de-registering conformation champions.

 

When the rule initially went into effect, I thought I remember hearing grumblings about a lawsuit by a conformation handler. Did that ever happen, and if so, what was the outcome?

 

Never happened. There're always more threats of lawsuits than there are lawsuits, fortunately for society.