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Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

quote:
Originally posted by laurie etc:

Hypothetical Question- (not knowing the working attributes of either dog or whether they would be a viable working cross) So Julie- if Kat was bred to Scott Glen's Pleat and happened to have a lilac-tri pup - would you cull it, sell it to a pet home, or give it a chance to prove itself as working dog? ...

If I did a breeding that resulted in something like a lilac tri...To be honest, though, I'd probably choose the (female) puppy who looked the most like Kat or maybe the sire. And that kind of means that the lilac tri wouldn't be the pup I'd choose (since I'd be choosing a pup that looked the most like Kat or Pleat in the hypothetical situation above)... I wouldn't go out of my way to try and prove that such a pup would be a great worker--unless it met the other criteria already listed above.

J.

Thanks! I think your paraphrased (hope I didn't butcher it too much) response would be typical for an informed breeder(farmer/shepherd/trialer) who is doing a specific breeding to produce working dogs. Keeping a pup that looked most like one of the parents is understandable, and other working dog buyers would probably choose similarly. Many people wouldn't take a chance on something different, when what they are familiar with or what is "traditional" is a known entity. So that would leave the odd-balls for the pet buyers or hobby/small farmers (or sports buyers, now). I'd bet this method and logic of choice explains to some extent how the odd colors became so scarce in the working/trialing culture - Especially in the UK. Not from inferior genetics, not from being culled puppies (although that's also possible); just from NOT being "the chosen puppies" for working people.
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HI,

Amanda's Craig was white factored and someone in Canada bred to him twice, same bitch, and some of her pups were deaf. This was written up in the Ontario BC club newsletter. Diane Pagel's blue pup was from Ellen Skilling's Midge and Joni Swanke's Chip.No one knows where it came from!!

Joan

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A sample size of one doesn't really tell me anything. We bred two white-factored dogs 6 1/2 years ago, got seven pups, none of which were deaf, and two of which were themselves white-factored.

 

I recall reading an article on these genetics but can't lay my hands on it at the moment.

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>>Am I mistaken, or didn't Diane Pagel get a blue pup from Tess/Pleat?<<

 

I got reds from that litter. Tess's sire was red and there must have been some red in PLeat's line. Both litters from Tess/Pleat had red pups. The red male from the first litter went to Cowdog Nursery's last yr and then I got hmn qualified for the Sheepdog Nurseries. In the last litter, I kept a white bitch with huge red spots...a real tough bitch.

 

The Blue pups that I have that you are thinking of are from Joni Swanke's Chip and Ellen Skillings Midge. Both parents were b/w. The blue male is a awesome dog, holds pressure and tons of stock sense. The bitch is fast and still a puppy in manners. I'll post a pix when I get home.

 

When I ordered the pups, I was surprised about the blues, asked for a black, all gone so I got the two blues. They have yellow wolf eyes and took me a bit to get used to the color but they are really nice dogs.

 

Diane

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Originally posted by laurie etc:

I'd bet this method and logic of choice explains to some extent how the odd colors became so scarce in the working/trialing culture - Especially in the UK. Not from inferior genetics, not from being culled puppies (although that's also possible); just from NOT being "the chosen puppies" for working people.

Yep, exactly. I think I said something much like that before, but maybe I said it in the poor breeding thread and not this one. I was basically stating that farmers/shepherds would likely choose colors they were familiar with and so any odd colored pups in a litter would end up not being worked and therefore not bred from, which just further reduced the incidence of those colors in the general working population ....

 

Oh, I went back and looked and here's what I said--my first post to this thread (second post in the thread):

 

The colors do exist in the breed, but many are recessive and so wouldn't appear often unless deliberately bred for. If farmer A had a nice working dog and bred it to farmer B's nice bitch, statistically they would get most or all pups of the more standard colors (B&W and tri). If a merle or other odd color (say, red) pup popped up, they may simply have disregarded that dog (maybe even culling it), thereby selecting against the color simply because the dog would never have had the opportunity to work and spread its genetics. But I doubt they consciously chose mostly black dogs because they'd have a better chance of winning trials.

 

More likely B&W and tris were what they were most familiar with and so those are the pups they'd choose from the litters and the ones that would then be used and bred from. We all are more comfortable with the familiar after all.

 

Anyway, that's my theory, FWIW.

J.
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Originally posted by amc:

A sample size of one doesn't really tell me anything. We bred two white-factored dogs 6 1/2 years ago, got seven pups, none of which were deaf, and two of which were themselves white-factored.

 

I recall reading an article on these genetics but can't lay my hands on it at the moment.

Amy,

My concern with crossing two white factored dogs is that there's a greater *chance* of getting a pup with an all white head (no pigment in the ears). Maybe the disconnect here is that some white-factored dogs don't have a lot of white on them, comparatively speaking, and some do (like my bitch). Since there is a belief that pigmentation cells, or more specifically *lack* of pigmentation cells in the ears could be the reason for deafness in white dogs (not just border collies) and presumably (and I haven't researched the genetics so am just going on gut feeling and anecdotal evidence of a few white-factored crosses that did produce white-headed deaf pups) crossing two white-factored dogs could increase the chances of getting a completely white headed/white eared pup, I see no reason to deliberately take that risk if there are other suitable crosses that don't involve doubling up on white factors. Again, I mean white factored to the point of piebald, and not just, say, white up the inside of the hind leg. That's the reasoning behind my statement that I wouldn't choose to breed my white-factored (nearly piebald) bitch to a white-factored dog. I imagine such crosses have been made without incident, especially with white-factored dogs who don't have a lot of white (piebald) themselves, but personally I wouldn't want to take that risk with a litter I'm breeding from my piebald bitch. That's all.

 

J.

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Hi Amy,

 

I'm sort of on the run right now but quickly:

 

Lack of pigment, especially around the ears, is associated with congenital deafness in all animals, not just dogs. Not all dogs with white ears or white heads will be affected, and the percentage varies from dog breed to dog breed, suggesting perhaps some protective factors are involved depending on the breed?

 

Here are some scientific refs:

 

web page

 

web page

 

web page

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Re dilution:

 

Any pup off a blue parent will carry the dilute gene, because that parent is dd and therefore has only the dilute allele to contribute to its offspring.

 

>

 

Perfectly true -- lilac is dd operating on bb, while blue is dd operating on BB or Bb. So it's POSSIBLE to get a lilac from two (red-factored, dilute-factored) black parents, but the dilution factor is so uncommon, that it is very, very rare for a dd to get matched up with a bb. Therefore you will get very, very few lilacs unless you consciously breed for them.

 

Re white factor:

 

Double merle is "lethal white" -- the odds of deaf and/or blind puppies from a breeding of two merles is VERY high. That is known for sure.

 

The risk of deafness from breeding two white-factored border collies together, however, has not been studied. White factor is associated with deafness in a few breeds, notably the Dalmatian. Denise feels the evidence is sufficient to conclude that the risk of deafness is increased in a white-factor to white-factor border collie breeding. I disagree. But I think both of us would say that the increased risk, if it exists, is very, very small. The overwhelming majority of white-factor to white-factor border collie breedings produce nothing but dogs with perfectly normal hearing.

 

(Note: I'm presuming to speak for Denise only in case she doesn't see this thread. Also, while this is a big interest of mine, and I've done my best to study it, Denise is far better qualified by education, and I would therefore expect anyone to give more weight to her opinion than mine.)

 

A couple of other random points. While deafness related to white factor is very complex and not well understood, it would occur--if at all--by the time a pup was 8-10 weeks old; it is not a continuing risk after that. Denise would say, I think, that the risk is not limited to mostly white pups of the litter, but extends also to mostly-black "normally-marked" pups. It is my belief, and that of many others (not sure about Denise), based on breeding patterns, that white on the head is governed by a different gene than the white-factor (Sp or Sw) gene. (For example, my Spot, who has a "normal-colored" head and is not white-factored, bred to my Meg, who had a "normal-colored" head and was not white-factored, produced the Tuff dog that Jeanne Weaver ran in last year's nursery finals, who is mostly white-headed with one nearly-all-white ear. None of the seven pups, including that one, were white-factored.) That is significant, in that the theory is often stated that it's white on the ears that is related to deafness. Also, it seems likely that there are modifier or "protective" genes also operating on the S series of genes, and their presence, absence, or relative frequency or infrequency could account for white-factoring being found to increase the risk of deafness in some breeds and not in others.

 

So much of this is anecdote and inference -- I would love to see a study done in border collies, but perhaps work on the dog genome will race ahead so fast that we'll get an explanation before we get a study. In any case, I did not hesitate to get a white border collie recently from a breeding I greatly liked the looks of (knowing both parents were white-factored and that a white dog or two would be likely to result). His hearing is great, as was my previous white BC's.

 

A good site for learning more about color genetics is http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

 

Edit: Ooops I see that Denise posted during the time it took me to write this, but I guess I'll leave this up anyway. Speaking of anecdotes, I can say that I know of one breeding of a color-headed white female to a white-factored male which produced four pups: one was white, all were white-factored, and none were deaf. I also recall a litter of ten pups whelped in VA many years ago, all of them white, and none of them deaf.

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<< My vet asked me recently if I'd ever heard the rumor that "the white stripe down a border collie's face has something to do with herding ability." >>

 

 

No No No - the true way of telling whether or not a puppy is going to be good working dog is that it crosses its front paws when it lies down. :rolleyes:

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I know of a recent litter of two white-factored dogs that yielded unilaterally deaf pups. One was tested another was showing the same symptoms (and may even have been tested, I can't remember).

 

I wonder how many unilaterally deaf pups from white-factor crosses go undiagnosed?

 

I believe there is a link between white-factored crosses and deafness; I just don't know what the prevalence is.

 

Mark

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Well, but prevalence is really crucial if you're going to give it weight in making breeding decisions, it seems to me. The number of white-factor to white-factor breedings is enormous. The number of extreme white border collies is pretty great too, and growing (not in sheepdog trial dogs, but in cattle dogs and sports dogs and pets). Yet there are very, very few deaf ones. Yes, undetected unilateral deafness is a possibility, but one hears of it in non-white-factored dogs as well. Sensorineural deafness may well be associated with lack of melanocytes (pigment-producing cells) in the strial bed in the inner ear, I accept that, but how closely associated is white factor -- or white on the external part of the ear, for that matter -- with absence of melanocytes in the strial bed? We don't know.

 

Only one of the border collies I have had has been BAER tested (not because I was suspicious, but because she was present where a BAER test was being offered), and she (Grace) tested normal. (She is white-factored, but not piebald.) But all of them have been trained for sheep work, and I associate with them a lot, and do a lot of things with them, and observe them closely. Coincidentally -- and I'm sure it's only a coincidence -- the ones I would rank first and second in hearing ability based on observation would be the white ones, and third would come the red one (white-factored also). I don't believe there's any defect in the others, but empirically they don't seem to hear as acutely. I mention this only because I think it rules out the possibility of their being unilaterally deaf, not because I think white dogs hear better.

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Well, but prevalence is really crucial if you're going to give it weight in making breeding decisions, it seems to me.
Lesser things (those with no suspected sources of health defects) are given weight in breeding decisions when working characteristics are equal (i.e. smooth-coat x smooth-coat vs. smooth-coat x rough-coat vs. rough-coat x rough-coat).

 

I do agree, Eileen, without unbiased-hard data this will continue to be a discussion of opinion not fact.

 

Mark

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Originally posted by Wendy V:

Liz writes:

 

"I do hope that more serious working people keep the odd colored pups."

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I truly hope to see more people, hats of all sizes, come to the handlers post with dogs of all colors. I need all the help I can get. :rolleyes:

 

But, Liz, I don't understand why this is important to you. Why is color so important?

 

Wendy V

It's not important, I just think it's neat there is so much variety in the breed. If I ended up with a dilute I would never try to breed for more dilutes on purpose.

 

I used to own a smooth coat red bitch with green eyes. I bought her because I was madly in love with her dam (black and white). I asked for the female pup who acted the most like the dam and it happened to be a red. She was, in my opinion, one of the most stiking BCs I had ever met. Sadly, we were like oil and water and I ended up selling her. If color or looks were a priority for me I would have kept her.

 

Alasdair MacRae sold a bitch to a farmer who pruduced blue with two different studs. The bitch and the two studs were black and white.

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White headed and white factored are not the same thing. A dog can be white headed and have classic markings on its body. A dog can be heavily white factored but have a colored head. To get a 100% white BC from non merle dogs you would breed dogs who are both white headed and heavily white factored together.

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Hi there everyone! I am doing some catching up on reading and replying and this discussion has brought a few questions and comments to mind for me.

 

Starting from the beginning~

 

Just the other day I saw pics of chinchilla gray pups out of black parents.

Liz, I am completely interested in these pictures. I have never seen a ?chinchilla? colored Border Collie, and I didn?t even know that it existed in the breed. I have seen a LOT of colors, but not this one.

 

Color prejudice is hardly limited to working dog breeders. Actually, color breeding is one thing that I don't accuse most conformation breeders of, since as far as I can tell there is very little tolerance for odd colors in the breed ring.
Melanie, I have to agree and disagree with you on this one. There are not many conformation breeders who breed solely for color that is right. However, many conformation breeders like this color or that and do try to get that color, while continuing to breed for other things they believe are important. And many conformation breeders prefer black and white. I have seen a couple of ?AKC? breeders who breed for color, but they are not what I would call ?show? breeders, or responsible breeders either. As far as tolerance in the ring for color, it really just does depend. Some judges won?t put up a colored dog to save their life (and this is not just for Border Collies) and some will. I have merle dogs, just by accident that I started breeding them, and a few years after that I was kind of considered a ?merle? breeder, however, that was in no way what I was breeding for. And I have seen prejudice in the ring toward merles, but I have also won over many black and white dogs. Again, it really just depends on the judge.

 

Maybe the reason we think show breeders are fixated on ears and the like is because we have seen firsthand the number of pups with ears turned under and glued (for that perfect tipped look) and ears tied up with yarn (so they sit higher on the head) and have been told that we should do this or that to our dogs' coats (e.g., trimming the "rasta" hairs behind the ears) that we can't help but think that. If show folks are not fixated on ears then why all the effort to alter the ears? If they are not fixated on coat, then why don't you see smooth coats in the ring? We aren't just pulling these ideas out of the blue after all....
Julie, yes many ?show? breeders do glue ears. And what you have seen is a ?sample? of breeders. The reason this is done is for expression. Remember, in a show ring the dog only has a few minutes to make his presence known, and so expression is sometimes helpful. Personally, I gave up trying to change ears quite a while back, because I don?t have the time, patience or will to do it. It also really never worked very well for me! And I also realized that if I ?fix? ears, then I don?t know what I have. So I just gave up. Ears are just not that important to me. As far as being told you should ?trim? your dog, here or there, I would hope that whoever told you this was thinking you were going to show the dog. Again, we are talking about a show ring, and a nicely groomed dog looks better in two minutes, than an untrimmed one. Having said that, I have trimmed ears and done grooming before I have shown my dogs, but? if you were to stop by unannounced, OH MY. You would find ungroomed, probably muddy, definitely smelling of good ole Virginia earth dogs. I kind of treat my dogs like I did my children, and figure they are happier when they are dirty! Most ?conformation? people I know don?t keep up grooming on dogs they are not currently showing. And actually the thoughts about not seeing many smooths in the ring are right now being considered by many show people.

 

 

Don't forget.....3 white whiskers! You need 3 white whiskers AND a black mouth
Elizabeth, okay I have heard the black mouth thing, but not the whiskers thing, are you kidding?

 

All of my dogs, good and bad, have had black-roofed mouths, except for the red one, who had a dark-brown roof.
Eileen, Okay I looked in the mouth of my 10 ? year old, love of my life, I might add, who is a fluffy show dog and he has a completely black palette. Now, He saw sheep for the first time at 5, and ummm, unless you are looking for a sheltie to bark the sheep around and around in circles, I would have to say he showed absolutely NO instinct or ability at all! It was funny, because he never barks otherwise. He does have children and grandchildren that are herding, but I will be honest and say that I never bred him for his working ability, and his offspring have not yet been tested to the degree that you would consider real working ability.

 

Lack of pigment, especially around the ears, is associated with congenital deafness in all animals, not just dogs. Not all dogs with white ears or white heads will be affected, and the percentage varies from dog breed to dog breed, suggesting perhaps some protective factors are involved depending on the breed?
I have seen the data and I tend to agree with you on this Denise.

 

No No No - the true way of telling whether or not a puppy is going to be good working dog is that it crosses its front paws when it lies down.
Northof49, I am assuming you are kidding on this one as well. However? out of all the Border Collie?s I have owned, the one who showed the most ability on sheep (and no I am not even sort of trying to say she was in league with real working dogs!) crossed her paws when she laid down and that is a genetic factor she has thrown off to her children and grandchildren. They all do it and I find that genetic trait very interesting. (The crossing of paws) So I guess that just goes to show that all of these myths are just that; myths.

 

I wonder how many unilaterally deaf pups from white-factor crosses go undiagnosed?
Mark, I wonder this as well. A few years back there was a very well used obedience stud dog that was not diagnosed with unilateral deafness until he was much older and had produced many children. If I remember correctly, there were offspring from him that had the same problem, and that is why he was tested. He was a top winning obedience dog, and most people recognized that he was so willing to work for his owner that he overcame his ?disability? and no one ever knew. Do any of you guys BEAR test? I do not and I know that most conformation breeders here don?t either. It is expensive and hard to find. I do also know that most show breeders in the UK DO BEAR test. And maybe I will try and ask them if they have any sort of statistics on that.

 

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion, thanks for all who posted. And let me say I put my two cents in about the ?conformation? thing, not to start an argument, but to give you a point of view from ?the other side?.

 

I guess I prefer black and white, but I do like all colors. I guess I just like all Border Collies!

 

Tonya

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I don't have permission to share pics of the chinchilla gray pups. They are the exact color of a gray husky. I'll include a link to a husky that is the same color. The parents were classic black and whites. So far I have not found a single person who has ever seen this color in BCs before. I did look up the genetics of the color. In order for the pups to be that color you need to have 4 recessive alleles, which are rare to begin with, come together in the right way in the same pup (better odds playing Powerball). I doubt I will ever see another chinchilla gray BC in my lifetime.

 

http://www.huskycolors.com/black.html#Dilute%20Black

 

This color is essentially sable but with complete restriction of any shades of yellow/tan/brown.

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"A few years back there was a very well used obedience stud dog that was not diagnosed with unilateral deafness until he was much older and had produced many children. If I remember correctly, there were offspring from him that had the same problem, and that is why he was tested."

 

I know the dog you are speaking of, and he produced a few other problems as well, not just deafness. He was very popular for producing agility dogs, due to his small size. He wasn't all that old when he was tested, and once it was found out that he was unilaterally deaf, his owner continued to breed him. I actually had discussions about three years ago at an agility trial in California with some people who stated that they didn't care that this dog produced deafness, they wanted an agility pup from him because he threw small, fast dogs and the unilateral deafness wouldn't be a problem - good attitude eh?.

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Tonya,

I had one of my dogs Baer tested here in Durham at Colony Park Animal Hospital by Dr. Susanne Hughes, and I think it cost something around $40-50. I didn't have her tested because I was suspicious of anything, but I did note that a cross further back in her pedigree might have produced deaf dogs, so I went ahead and had her tested just for my own edification. I wouldn't automatically test every dog I had, but if I thought there was a reason to, I would.

 

Oh, and the comment about trimming behind the ears was from someone who shows in conformation. The hair wasn't matted or anything, just a little Einsteinish. In response the next time I knew she was going to be at the farm where I worked my dogs, I turned those crinkly hairs into little rasta braids and had a good laugh.... :rolleyes:

 

J.

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Hey Liz,

 

Here are a few pictures of my Dice. She isn't gray but I think maybe she is sort of what you are talking about?

 

Her color pattern is somewhat like the Husky's but black, gray, and red in color. She is not a tri color and the coloring isn't bleached from the sun. In her last litter she had one pup of the same color which could/was noticed at birth.

 

If I get a chance, I'll post some more pictures.

 

Katelynn

 

Dicestacked.jpg

 

DiceColor.jpg

 

DiceBack.jpg

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