colors

[Liz P]

I've been reading some posts, including the ones about breeding for color. On another list some of us were theorizing about how and why color bias developed in the breed when they have so many colors in their genome.

 

I've read over and over again that people don't want unusual colors because the sheep will react to them differently than to a black dog. My theory is based on this idea and the fact that the breeds used to develop BCs came in many different colors.

 

My theory... When the breed was being developed farmers didn't care what color the dog was as long as it made their life easier by moving the sheep for them. Since the same dog was used to move the same sheep every day color didn't matter. As trials began to shape them into the modern BC and winning them became even more important to prove a dog was worthy of breeding, a color bias developed because the sheep used at a trial may not have ever seen a colored dog before. (Because black was the most common color trial sheep were more likely to have been worked by a black dog.) It would therefore take an exceptional dog of color to win trials. So, wanting to win and not waste their time on dogs that the sheep might react differently too, farmers culled the odd colors.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Even though I don't own any unusual colors myself I love to admire them. Just the other day I saw pics of chinchilla gray pups out of black parents.

[juliepoudrier]

But sheep also react to *any* strange dog, even a mostly black one, so I think it's a bit of a stretch to state that color was bred *away* from for the purpose of winning trials because farmers thought the colored dogs would have a harder time controlling sheep.

 

The colors do exist in the breed, but many are recessive and so wouldn't appear often unless deliberately bred for. If farmer A had a nice working dog and bred it to farmer B's nice bitch, statistically they would get most or all pups of the more standard colors (B&W and tri). If a merle or other odd color (say, red) pup popped up, they may simply have disregarded that dog (maybe even culling it), thereby selecting against the color simply because the dog would never have had the opportunity to work and spread its genetics. But I doubt they consciously chose mostly black dogs because they'd have a better chance of winning trials.

 

More likely B&W and tris were what they were most familiar with and so those are the pups they'd choose from the litters and the ones that would then be used and bred from. We all are more comfortable with the familiar after all.

 

Anyway, that's my theory, FWIW.

 

J.

[Howdyjabo]

I'd say that in the beginning farmers had all kinds of colored dogs-- When trialing began and people were selectively improving their dogs- most of the key dogs were not "colored"-- Since the "colored gene" is recessive it dropped into the background. And since the "key dogs" were better dogs and happened to be B/W and tri it probably soaked in that uncolored dogs were less reliable instinct wise. Which may or may not be true-- but what is true is that there is no reason to concentrate the genes back to those original "colored" dogs who were just used as the base to create the breed on.

[airbear]

My pet theory, based on nothing but my own opinion, is that the only reason that the plain looking ones were bred was because they could work. Else, why perpetuate the sausage-shaped, the bat-eared, the mostly black, etc.?

 

BTW, those are my favourite kind of dogs.

[Liz P]

So why, then, do people claim there was a bias because sheep reacted differently to the colored dogs? Are they just making up a story to rationalize culling colored pups?

 

I have only seen one colored BC on sheep that had only been worked by blacks and reds(chocolates). The sheep did seem to treat him like any other BC, but he was a very nice Open trial winning dog with loads of experience.

[Dixie_Girl]

The question I have about all this color debate is, does any one know if sheep can see color? If so, has anyone tried different colored strange dogs on the same sheep to see? Like a scientific experiment. That would really put the whole debate to rest. Personally I don't feel sheep care what color a dog is, only that it is a dog. That is what they react to, not the color. If you found, somewhere, a rough collie(lassie type) that could herd, I believe the sheep would still go like if a b/w BC were herding. JMO

[Liz P]

The consensus right now is that they do see limited colors. They can certainly tell the difference between a black dog and a chocolate dog. For prey animals patterns and contrast are much more important than color.

 

When I work my dogs around twilight it's hard for me to see my chocolate male but my black dogs stand right out.

 

There is a sable BC who is so pale he almost looks ee red (like Lassie) in New England who does very well at trials. The sheep react to him like any other dog.

 

Liz

[Howdyjabo]

No I don't think they are making it up---

but I think they are reacting differently to just an unimpressive dog-- the same they would with an unimpressive black dog. Its just that they stand out in the perception because there are less of them and I think that theres a good chance that the % of colored dogs that are unimpressive is higher than the % of traditional colored dogs.

 

Again having a trend to concentrating the genes back to the base dogs instead of the exceptional dogs.And I think its getting more obvious with people purposely breeding for color.

 

And no I am not saying that colored dogs cannot be good or exceptional-- I just think the ODDS are better for good or exceptional with a traditonal colored dog.

I think that is the same thing that the original breeders thought too and is why they bred away from colors.

Then the farmers said-- so and so doesn't like colors must be cause they ain't as good-- so I won't like colors.

 

I personally think that alot of red dogs have a wire or two loose

[SoloRiver]

I personally think that alot of red dogs have a wire or two loose

 

Hey! Solo resembles that remark!

 

I think the prejudice is a combination of sampling error (not very many colored dogs, and therefore the odds of getting a great one are lower, in addition the ones that are not great will be more likely to be remembered) and self-fulfilling prophecy (once people already think the colored dogs won't work as well, they don't put the same amount of effort into them).

 

There are also no fashion colors in Border Collies that you can get with elevated frequency without purposefully selecting for them, and that's not what we select for, so the colors stay at low frequency in the population.

 

The red dog hypothesis is something I plan to test down the road. Actually, if I had the time right now I could go through the sample we have and see if the red dogs are more likely to report behavior problems than the black or tri dogs, but since what we have right now is not a random sample that won't tell me much.

[Katelynn & Gang]

IMO Color has nothing to do with working ability if you are breeding correctly for working ability.

 

Katelynn

[wildairbc]

"There is a sable BC who is so pale he almost looks ee red (like Lassie) in New England who does very well at trials. The sheep react to him like any other dog."

 

Lassie is a sable, which is completely different from "ee red"(yellow). "ee red" can range from pale cream to Irish Setter red, depending on the rufous modifiers.

Which helps illustrate my theory on why there are more B&W BCs out there...

Recessive genes are very HARD to breed out. Most "colors" and "patterns" are recessive, and would naturally continue to show up in litters from black parents. I believe that these "colored" pups were culled at birth because of ignorance. Perhaps the "breeder" believed that another dog had gotten to the bitch. Perhaps they weren't "marketable" due to the "can't work" prejudice and who knows where that came from. Perhaps THAT came from the egos of those farmers who were not secure enough to work a "dog of a different color" at a trial because of ridicule.

Merle is a dominant pattern gene. You can't get merles without at least one merle parent. Which leads me to believe that there were a few enlightened folks who did not have a color predjudice, since the color survived, abeit, barely.

Preferring a color is not the same thing as breeding for that color. Or, more precisely, breeding for ONE THING.

Whether you emphasize working ability or something else, the WHOLE dog must be bred for. I don't understand why so many of you think that "show" breeders are fixated on ears, or coat, or color. Because you are just wrong. It is the WHOLE dog, not just a trapping or two.

Bonnie

[ccnnc]

As an East Tennessee farm boy told me a few years ago...

 

"I don't care what they look like, all I want is for them to WORK right!!"

 

And, I agree.

 

We've got everything but merle -- well, the merle is actually a blue tick coon hound/Great Dane (we think) cross.

 

And that's the difference between us and y'all. We firmly believe the WORK defines the breed. Some may prefer one "look" or another, but it's the work that counts.

 

Breeding for ANYTHING else is, by definition, not in the best interest of ANY Border Collie.

 

Colin

[SoloRiver]

Bonnie,

 

Colored pups don't need to be culled at birth for color recessives to remain at low frequencies in the population. They just need to not be bred from. Of course, that doesn't sound quite as bloodthirsty.

 

Yeah, it's hard to get rid of recessives, but not difficult for them to remain at low frequencies. I think they're less common primarily due to founder effect.

 

Color prejudice is hardly limited to working dog breeders. Actually, color breeding is one thing that I don't accuse most conformation breeders of, since as far as I can tell there is very little tolerance for odd colors in the breed ring. The folks who are most into fashion colors seem to be the sports people.

 

I was at the Golden Gate Kennel Club dog show last month (one of the last benched shows in the country) and had a fun discussion with the (very pleasant) exhibitors there about the relative merits of red vs. black dogs. The conversation was started by the large, gorgeous portrait of Solo that I had up at our booth (he does have a rather nice head). It seems that the same red dog stereotype exists among Barbie Collie breeders as among Border Collie breeders, and also that red is highly not favored in the ring. The Border Collie entry at GGKC was unusually large this year and there wasn't a single red dog competing. There was one blue, and one blue merle, but if I remember correctly neither placed. The rest of the dogs were all black and white, all with traditional Irish markings. Someone joked that Solo was a very nice looking dog, except for his color.

 

On the other hand, agility people tend to LOVE Solo's redness, and he was propositioned at one agility trial partly for this reason (the other was his structure). At dog sports events you will see a color distribution that is highly unrepresentative, at least compared to either the working Border Collie or Barbie Collie populations.

[wildairbc]

Well, I mostly agree, Melanie.

However, if those pups weren't "bucketed", where are they? Even today, most farmers don't sell puppies with a neuter contract. Even back in the day, if they were out and about, people would have seen them.

The only way to keep a low incidence is to remove the "colors" from the breeding pool. I only conjecture why this was done, as it obviously was, by whatever method.

I don't know much about "sport" breeders or their selection criteria, so I can't speak to it. I do know that "chocolate"(red) is currently well represented in the breed ring and the dilute black(blue) is very common. The "other" colors become more so, as they occur naturally and are seen to be superior specimens. (look, I KNOW you have a different perspective on "superior", so let it go here) One show, albeit, a big one, is not enough to make assumptions on.

Personally, I do NOT like the chocolate(called this to differentiate from the ee red). Doesn't mean I would avoid a breeding that might produce them or cull a puppy just for color. I don't believe they are inherently "less"-I just don't like the look of them, and I have to look at my dogs all of the time.

Bonnie

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by wildairbc:

I don't understand why so many of you think that "show" breeders are fixated on ears, or coat, or color. Because you are just wrong. It is the WHOLE dog, not just a trapping or two.

Bonnie

Bonnie,

Maybe the reason we think show breeders are fixated on ears and the like is because we have seen firsthand the number of pups with ears turned under and glued (for that perfect tipped look) and ears tied up with yarn (so they sit higher on the head) and have been told that we should do this or that to our dogs' coats (e.g., trimming the "rasta" hairs behind the ears) that we can't help but think that. If show folks are not fixated on ears then why all the effort to alter the ears? If they are not fixated on coat, then why don't you see smooth coats in the ring? We aren't just pulling these ideas out of the blue after all....

 

As for looks, many of us have our preferences, but it goes without saying, though I'll say it anyway, that working ability TAKES PRECEDENCE. If I have a choice of two equally talented dogs and one has the look I prefer, then I'd certainly take that one. But if the one whose looks I like is an inferior worker, then it would be quite easy for me to decide to take the other dog, *in spite of its looks.* That's the difference between this culture and the show culture.

 

As for the topic of pups being "bucketed" (I assume you mean drowned?), no one can say for sure. But even if the farmer didn't cull in that way, if the dogs weren't used for work then they weren't as likely to be bred from, so it would be easy enough to have diminishing numbers of odd colors even if the pups weren't killed. After all, there was no real "border collie culture" outside of the farmers and shepherds who were using the dogs, so it's entirely possible that the odd colors were around but not bred from, at least not with the goal of obtaining a superior working dog. Most farmers and shepherds *still don't* breed for the odd colors (with some notable exceptions). They have become popular among the non-stockworking folks only recently and are now being bred for. But you still don't see many, if any, at trials because the folks breeding working dogs aren't putting odd color first.

 

J.

[mike goracke]

At our house we strictly go by working ability...

 

We have (Pulfer's) Tweed (one of the top open dogs in his day) who appears to be blue because he is white factor with heavy, heavy ticking.

 

Then there is his half brother Gringo, who has a coat similar to a dalmantion or springer spaniel, mostly white with ticking that looks like spots.

 

We have several tri colors, a red tri color, and just recently parted with a slate blue (black dilute) to a friend.

 

Oh yea, we do have 2 plain old black and whites...All of these dogs come from working lines.

 

And did I mention these also cover the gamet from rough coated to slick coated as well...

 

We obviously do not care what color they are, just how the perform while on stock.

 

We do breed occasionally, most pups go to top USBCHA handlers, we try really hard to put them in working homes. The ones that we are breeding will have been proven trial winners, had their eyes and hips checked, etc.

[Liz P]

I do know the difference between ee red and sable, and this dog in New England is a sable. He has black tips on his fur, but just barely, and his overall color is quite pale to begin with. He is purebred, but tall and funny looking. If he was at the pound I would even dare to call him a BC x Collie because his head looks elongated. His breeder/handler was pretty shocked when he was born, but he doesn't care what he looks like because he works like a BC should. If you look through trial photos from New England you could probably find a photo of Russ.

 

Reds crazy? Maybe. My red has some behavioral issues, but so do many of his close relatives (puppymill breeding). I can say he is the most honest, hard working, fair and loving dog I have ever owned. His body fails him (HD) when his heart tells him to keep on going.

 

I happen to love merles but I can't find one I would want to pay money for. If I ever do find a quality working merle with the traits I want in a herding dog I will buy it in a heartbeat. I did see one run at a trial and she had some pups on the ground sired by a dog I like. She had nice bloodlines too but came from a breeder with a really bad reputation :mad: I guess that's why merles get a bad name.

[zenotri]

Originally posted by Liz P:

I've read over and over again that people don't want unusual colors because the sheep will react to them differently than to a black dog. My theory is based on this idea and the fact that the breeds used to develop BCs came in many different colors.

I have encountered sheep "reacting" to my merle b/c she is different. I went to a friends place who has all B&W dogs. As we walked down to the field the first time, all her sheep came to "look" at my dog. It didn't take long before the sheep were backing up away from her & she certainly had no trouble moving them. So while they did react initially, once she started to work them they got over it pretty damn quick.

 

We haven't trialled yet, but have helped with the exhaust & certainly none of those sheep reacted to her, but then they had never been worked by dogs before either, so were not used to B&W's.

 

A reasonable % of our farm dogs over here are red kelpies and our top trialler has lines of mostly white dogs.

[Denise Wall]

I can't say about red and merle, etc., but I've had a couple of nearly all black dogs (Mick and his grandmother Micki) and they do seem to scare some sheep initially.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I had a red merle ACD come work my sheep and they definitely noticed something different. They turned right around and faced her and several walked up to "meet and greet". They'd seen plenty of dogs like her before, light and dark dogs, big and small, many different breeds, badly bred dogs and well bred dogs. So the only thing I can imagine they noticed different was her color. She had to really lay into them to get some respect, though after that they worked fine for her.

 

Sheep do see color. I forget what ranges. They also have an extremely good memory for faces, both sheepy and non-sheepy, including dogs. They are surprisingly facially oriented and can read expressions on familiar faces - something sort of interesting to think of when you are bringing your dog to new sheep. They'll want a chance to get the gauge of both your dog and you. A calm interaction allows them to evaluate both of your intentions.

[Pipedream Farm]

I've noticed that our sheep react differently to dogs they don't know based upon the dog's color.

 

Jasper is fawn and when we first brought him home they came over to the fence to sniff him.

 

Puppies too young to show interest in sheep that are mostly B&W or tri receive a more aggressive/protective reaction from some sheep and from others the puppies are given a wide berth. This occurs with a fence between the sheep and dogs.

 

When Starr was young and still learning and Renee was running Moss (both have a similar look), Mary's sheep would run from Starr as soon as they saw her come on the field (their reaction to young dogs) and would be relaxed when Moss came on the field and would wait for him to collect them. One day Renee went out with Starr and they stayed relaxed and waited till Starr got closer then they realized it was Starr and panicked.

 

Sheep remember and I suspect they react to unknown dogs based upon the dog's visual cues (color, size, and posture). I believe they learn and remember that some colors go along with animals that show no interest in them while other colors go with animals to be wary of.

 

Mary had a large furry mostly black dog (Ron) and whenever they came to the post (Open) you could see the sheep start to get nervous. If you where holding it was very obvious the sheep were reacting to the presence of Ron at the post. So did Ron have that much power/presence or were the sheep reacting to Ron's color and size?

 

Mark

[Wendy V]

The theory put out by Alasdair and others is that sheep will turn and face an odd colored dog, creating a weaker dog over time. Black is more intimidating and sheep will turn off them faster.

 

Although I resisted this inference for a long time, I have found it to be true, at least for my off-colored dogs. My red dog and overly white dog can work lighter sheep just fine, but when it comes to tough range sheep, the black one is the one to move them without hesitation. It is disheartening to learn that after years and years of training, that the other two cannot move tough sheep effectively, if at all. For that reason, I will not keep a red or white dog again, much less other fancy colors. But then, my ambitions are to compete at the national level.

 

Regards,

 

Wendy V

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Oh, I have another couple stories about sheep being attuned to the looks of a dog. I've had guard dogs almost as long as I've had sheep - predator pressure is pretty high in this neighborhood and the sheep learn early on to not only trust, but look to the guard dogs for guidance.

 

First, several years ago I rented some pasture. There was a mobile home on it and it was rented to someone with Irish Wolfhounds. She didn't think the sheep would be a problem but she took her dogs over on leash to see, just in case. She was right, the dogs weren't interested in the sheep, but boy was she surprised when the sheep came over, very friendly, and started following her dog around! In fact they wouldn't give her dog any peace and tried to follow him right out of the pasture!

 

I had someone bring a Terv over and she was having a bit of trouble because the sheep were working really oddly for him. And the guard dogs were coming over and kept disciplining him - which they never do in general once I've "told" them a dog is OK. But it was odd how they were disciplining him - they'd go over and posture but not attempt to stop him interacting with the sheep.

 

I finally told Mary that what they were doing was trying to assert their authority over a perceived fellow guard dog.

 

Mary didn't want me to move the guard dogs because they were correcting him exactly when she would correct him. But the longer all those dogs interacted, the more the Terv started ACTING like a guard dog. After several sessions, Ren actually drew the sheep if he walked out without being in "working mode." He COULD turn on a little eye and get them to move away but mostly the sheep seem to think that he's a very odd, pushy guard dog. After the first day, my guard dogs thought so too.

 

So it's a little more complex than simply color or size or shape.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

So it's a little more complex than simply color or size or shape.

Yes, but in your example the sheep learned to trust the Terv and then remembered. What I am talking about is first exposure.

 

Mark

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

That's a pretty small sample to generalize from, isn't it? I have three adult, fully trained dogs, all so similar in color (mostly black) that sheep could not possibly tell them apart on that basis. (Which is not to say they couldn't tell them apart -- they do.) Two of them can move heavy stock, one cannot. If that one happened to be red, I might attribute its inability to its color, but I would be wrong.

 

I do believe sheep will turn and look at a light-colored dog if they've never seen a light-colored dog, but once the dog gets close enough for them to see it acting like a sheepdog, they will normally move right off, and I don't think that degree of hesitation is enough to make the dog lose confidence. At least, I've seen a lot of light-colored dogs who work just fine. I agree with Julie, and I think Melanie really nailed it.

 

 

Jasper is fawn and when we first brought him home they came over to the fence to sniff him. >>

 

Mark, that's a joke, right?