I may get toasted for this but, here I go

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

What I'm having a hard time understanding from a rescue point of view is if say for example Dal was at your rescue would you be promoting his perfect behavior, house training and willingness to learn or talking up the fact he may have been from an accidental poor breeding? That's he's ugly by BC standards.

 

I didnt purchase Dal initially I took him home on an extended trail with everything supplied. I made the decision to keep him he's a perfect fit here. It's like my 12 year old BC mix never left.

 

Everyone keeps saying a quality breeder I went to sheepy hollow /culleymont to look at pups they are being raised in the barn.

 

I've looked at Lock eye BC who has losts of champions in all aspects but, I didnt want someone to mail me a dog.

 

I went to a place who was a true BYB who I handed us pups over a fence and said dont put them down they will run off??? It was us that ran off.

 

My neighbor down the street has 2 well selected Bc's they plan to breed once or twice should that not be allowed?

 

The whole topic makes my head spin as a new comer here so can someone explain it to me?

[Kyrasmom]

I'm not sure I understand the question so forgive me if my answer is incorrect. With any dog I have in rescue, I promote all that is good about him, if it's true of course, and explain why dogs end up in rescue to begin with.

 

I never tire of saying the same thing over and over, at adoption events, on the phone, on the street, whenever I'm given the opportunity.

 

I've had some incredible dogs pass through my hands (and a few that stayed) but I never lose sight of the fact that they never should have been bred to begin with. That doesn't change that they're good dogs, it just drives home that they're breeders were irresponsible.

 

Maria

[juliepoudrier]

Sheryl,

It could be that you're getting hung up on "after the fact" vs. "before the fact." Dally was already here in this world when you got him, through no fault of his own. If he were in rescue, of course the rescue would be touting his good qualities--after all, they would want him to find a forever home. But I don't think it would hurt if that same rescue then used him as an educational tool to help explain why poor breeding practices are what they are.

 

Everyone keeps saying a quality breeder I went to sheepy hollow /culleymont to look at pups they are being raised in the barn.

I missed the whole "raised in a barn" thing on the deleted thread, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with pups being raised in a barn. The important issue is *how* they are being raised in that barn. If the pups are left to their own devices 24/7--never handled--then of course that's not a good situation. But if the pups and their mom are cared for, handled, worked (the mom), then being raised in a barn is really no different then being raised in, say, the laundry room. In the latter situation, the pups could be just as ignored, mistreated, whatever, as they could if they were being raised in any other location.

 

I went to a place who was a true BYB who I handed us pups over a fence and said dont put them down they will run off??? It was us that ran off.

Good for you for recognizing that "breeder" for what s/he was.

 

My neighbor down the street has 2 well selected Bc's they plan to breed once or twice should that not be allowed?

I guess the question would be what the/your definition of "well selected" is. What many of us consider to be the steps needed to make a good breeding choice have been repeated many times on these boards, so I won't waste my time or yours repeating them.

 

It is my opinion that if your neighbors down the street have nice dogs that don't exhibit superior stock working ability, then no they shouldn't be bred. Of course, my opinion probably won't matter a whole lot to them, but unless they can explain what producing a litter from those dogs would do toward improving the breed for what it's meant to be--that is, improving the stock working ability--then I don't think they should be allowed to breed. (Of course "allowed" is probably not the best term, since clearly they can do whatever they want. You, as an educated consumer, can decide if you want to support a breeding practice that is not in keeping with the practices that made this breed what it is--and what makes it attractive to so many people.)

 

Just my two cents.

 

J.

 

P.S. Where do you get the idea that Dally is ugly "by BC standards"? If you take nothing else from the working folks on this forum, you should understand that we don't judge dogs by their looks--that's the *other* organization's purview.

[Pipedream Farm]

I've had some incredible dogs pass through my hands (and a few that stayed) but I never lose sight of the fact that they never should have been bred to begin with. That doesn't change that they're good dogs, it just drives home that they're breeders were irresponsible.

 

Maria

The previous owner was blameless?

 

Please don't loose sight of the fact that like breeders, owners have responsibilites too.

 

Mark

[Liz P]

"What I'm having a hard time understanding from a rescue point of view is if say for example Dal was at your rescue would you be promoting his perfect behavior, house training and willingness to learn or talking up the fact he may have been from an accidental poor breeding? That's he's ugly by BC standards."

 

If he was a rescue I would use him as an educational oppertunity to show the public what poor breeding practices do. He would be an example of what not to buy and why buying from people like that supports a market that dumps thousands of rescues a year into the system. I'm tired of seeing BCs put down becuase the breeders used a sire and dam with temperament problems or sold the pup to an ill prepared home. One of my fosters was euthanized because he was a serious biter. One I pulled from the HS after his owner tried to beat him to death with a metal pipe. He claimed the dog was not obedient and didn't understand why since his parents were so nice.

 

Why don't you rescue for a few years? It shows you just how big of a problem stupid breeders can be.

 

"Everyone keeps saying a quality breeder I went to sheepy hollow /culleymont to look at pups they are being raised in the barn. "

 

What is wrong with that as long as they are clean, well cared for and socialized? They work their dogs to a high level, prove them on the trial field, take care in researching bloodlines and matching the right dogs for breeding. They care about what they produce and who they sell to. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a pup from them. All of my BCs were born in a barn and they are perfectly socialized and trained.

 

"I've looked at Lock eye BC who has losts of champions in all aspects but, I didnt want someone to mail me a dog."

 

Champions?

 

If not being able to meet the parents is the only thing you found wrong about that situation you need to take a closer look.

 

"My neighbor down the street has 2 well selected Bc's they plan to breed once or twice should that not be allowed?"

 

What do you consider to be well selected? Why are they breeding their dogs together? If it's because they want to show their kids the miracle of life or want a little piece of Rover and Fido remaining after they die I would not support that by purchasing one of their pups.

 

If you really don't understand these issues you should be a foster parent for BCR for a few years. It's an eye opening experience and it will answer all of the questions you just asked in a very graphic way.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I've had some incredible dogs pass through my hands (and a few that stayed) but I never lose sight of the fact that they never should have been bred to begin with. That doesn't change that they're good dogs, it just drives home that they're breeders were irresponsible.

 

I've seen pics of the litter though and only poor Dal got beat with the ugly stick 6 of his siblings are enrolled in a goose program 1 is a pet and 2 are learing to work some sort of animals.

 

Dal's breeder takes back and rehomes she keeps in touch with the people who have her dogs and assists rescues.

 

I just dont see how eveyone should be painted with a broad brush.

[Pipedream Farm]

Sherly, I looked into buying a working dog nick-named Ugly; I chose not to buy her for reasons other than looks. While I had her, I only saw her personality and her work on the field. Looks may sell (to some) but it doesn't get the job done.

 

Dally doesn't care one bit about your looks; why do you care about his?

 

Mark

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Dally doesn't care one bit about your looks; why do you care about his?

 

Your right he doesnt he actually had to be put in his crate last night because he kept crashing the bedroom door trying to see me after my surgery.

Right now he looks extra special.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

quote:

---

I've had some incredible dogs pass through my hands (and a few that stayed) but I never lose sight of the fact that they never should have been bred to begin with. That doesn't change that they're good dogs, it just drives home that they're breeders were irresponsible.

 

Maria

The previous owner was blameless?

 

Please don't loose sight of the fact that like breeders, owners have responsibilites too.

 

Mark

You are absolutely correct, owners do have responsibilities. I foster a lot of puppies, complete litters actually, so my judgment is colored. But even for adults, much goes back to a litter being bred for the wrong reasons and given to the wrong people with no concern for the future.

 

I'm not disputing that sometimes, even in rescue, you make the best possible decision based on what the potential family tells you, you cross all your t's and dot all your i's and the dog still comes back to you. It happens. But I take the dog back...and his original breeder doesn't.

[Kyrasmom]

Dal's breeder takes back and rehomes she keeps in touch with the people who have her dogs and assists rescues.

 

I just dont see how eveyone should be painted with a broad brush.

Again, maybe I'm obtuse, but your question was how Dal would be promoted if he were in rescue. If he were in rescue, I would not think highly of his breeder. Looks are irrelevant.

[juliepoudrier]

This is unrelated to the topic and maybe I should post it as a topic of its own, but it sure would help the folks reading these threads if everyone would either use the quote function ("") or, if copying and pasting from another post, put the quoted material in quoatation marks so that the reader doesn't have to try and figure out what are the quoted parts and what are the current poster's actual comments. Thanks.

 

Back to the discussion....

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Kyra's mom,

Dally's mom is objecting to anyone referring to Dally's breeder as a bad breeder--we are using a broad brush to paint her as a bad breeder. The fact that the breeder isn't breeding dogs that improve the breed overall apparently is not as important as the fact that she keeps in touch with previous buyers and helps with rescue....

 

J.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

Kyra's mom,

Dally's mom is objecting to anyone referring to Dally's breeder as a bad breeder--we are using a broad brush to paint her as a bad breeder. The fact that the breeder isn't breeding dogs that improve the breed overall apparently is not as important as the fact that she keeps in touch with previous buyers and helps with rescue....

 

J.

I get that, but it was presented as "if dal were in rescue" thus my response. It's hard to come to terms with the fact that the dog you love should not have been bred, I've dealt with it myself more than once, but it is a truth, regardless of how "nice" the breeder. There's more to it then that. A lot of BYB's are very nice.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

 

Possibly this this the topic I want define improving the breed?

 

For example a wise BC experienced friend told me that the Culleymont Bc would likely be much more BC than I would be able to handle.

 

They are buying a lock eye pup due to their biddability.?

 

I'm asking what's a happy medium? Cant there be pups suitable to be pets?

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by dallys mom:

For example a wise BC experienced friend told me that the Culleymont Bc would likely be much more BC than I would be able to handle.

It would really depend upon which of their dogs was the sire and dam; each have their own personality and, yes, there are working bred dogs that make great and layed back pets.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

All of my working bred dogs are fine as pets in the house, and that includes the current working dogs as well as the retirees. The most impossible dog I have is a BYB dog who has all sorts of nutty behaviors. The working dogs are fine as pets because I set limits and they understand what those limits are. At any rate, I don't really understand the concept that a working bred border collie would "be much more BC than I would be able to handle." In truth, you would be getting a border collie and all that entails, but you would also be getting a well-bred dog, whose parents were carefully considered, meaning you'd likely get a temperamentally stable dog that you could integrate into your life. Anyway, why not ask the folks at Culleymont if they think they might have a pup suitable for your situation?

 

J.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Maybe they meant for a new handler, as in sheepdog trialing/training?

 

Katelynn

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

"Define improving the breed"

 

"Improving the breed" is kind of an annoying term for me actually. It's a kennel-club oriented concept that focuses on the idea that you are constantly refining the looks of a dog and upgrading the breed's ability as a whole to shine in a show setting. That's fine for my Chinese Crested pup Zhi - it doesn't have much relation to the goals that drive breeders of working dogs.

 

There's a basic standard that sorts out the haves from the have nots - Open level work or the equivalent farm work. It's pretty straighforward. Either the dog you're considering breeding can do the work or not.

 

Then the "improvement" comes in when you stretch the dog's training level to the highest possible. Trial competitors face new challenges at each new field, every new day. What it takes to win is getting refined all the time - I can remember when even Open work could be fairly rough - now I'd be embarrased to go out in Open with a dog that wasn't fully trained and well-traveled.

 

And real fulltime farm work throws constant challenges at the dog all the time too. Ideally, you'll see a farm dog that works on and off the farm with equal applomb, has experience with a wide variety of stock, can execute his duties even in strange places with little handling, and demonstrate good manners in the worst of situations.

 

I can't say enough for the concept of getting to know the person you are buying a pup from, BEFORE you commit or hold a fuzzy puppums in your hand. Pups aren't widescreen TVs you can research online and then shop around for the cheapest bargain. You are buying into a life AND a breed when you purchase a purebred pup.

 

If the breed doesn't matter enough to do the research ahead of time and make the effort to get involved in the community, then there are LOTS of random bred pups in rescue and shelters literally dying for a nice family that doesn't care about the breed of their dog. If it doesn't matter that you are buying a life, then possibly a nice stuffed animal would be a better choice.

 

That's my opinion as a rescuer AND someone who cares passionately about supporting good breeders.

[Howdyjabo]

There are some homes that a working bred Border Collie pup is not a good choice.

 

But the other choices available are not to get a different version of the breed-- its to get a different breed. Or get an adult that you already can see the suitability.

[BC's Three]

I have three Border Collies:

 

1--a rescue--great dog

 

2 and 3--well bred working dogs that were born in barns and raised outside.

 

All three live in the house, are great dogs, biddable and a joy to live with and train.

 

I am happy your friend is getting a pup from lockeye--however I ask that you really talk to people privately about this and all breeders. Think about what you want in a dog and go with a breeder you trust.

 

If a breeder looks too good to be true--they normally are. Ask the breeder what the good and bad traits are on the dogs--if they only give good---well that is a red flag for me. There is NO perfect dog (ok all our dogs are perfect, but you know what I mean

 

Other red flags for me personally--obviously this is open to interpretation:

 

Breeding for color

Not working their dogs or working them very little

Amount of puppies produced

Breeding for other things besides herding--I don't care if the dogs do agility or whatever--but they MUST be working on stock--and that means to me trained

Trying to sell puppies by naming distant relatives (great great great grandmother was this)...is there nothing closer that this dog has?

If I cannot view the dogs and see them work

Who do they sell most of their puppies to? I want a breeder that sells to herding homes as the majority.

STRUCTURE--I am not talking conformation dogs..I am talking does this breeder know the structure of a WORKING dog?

Health clearances are wonderful---HOWEVER people can use health clearances as a cover for temperament flaws. "well the dog has OFA good hips"....when the dog is extremely shy/scared or aggressive...not my idea of a great dog

 

There are more but my fingers are getting tired

 

You will find that there are people that love or hate breeders for reasons--it is up to you to talk to as many people as you can and decide for yourself what you want and what you are willing to deal with.

 

Other things to ask:

 

Where dogs returned to this breeder? If so why and did they get their money back? If every dog that was returned was "Because of the Owner" that would be a HUGE reg flag. Not all dogs are returned because the owner is an idiot--some yes..but not all. Some dogs are not suited to the owner, some have horrible temperaments, etc. etc. If when you ask these questions the person gets mad/irritated I would go elsewhere as how will they respond if an issue happens with the pup you bought from them?

 

My opinion of course, but if I had a litter and someone wanted to return a dog from that litter I would give them their money back regardless of the reason behind it--why you ask? Because I CARE about the dog--and ultimately that is what matters to me.

 

My 2 youngest Border collies--one is a pistol, has a mechanical off switch (aka I tell her to settle) and is very very intense and pushy---I like the dog immensly--she is by far my favorite dog. The other is a great pup with a natural off switch that can settle easily--yet is very intense and driven when working. This pup is wonderful and very very easy to live with with little training on settling. The other dog required time and training to learn how to settle in the house.

 

Looking at each of their parents I was able to tell how the dogs would be.

 

Breeding to improve lines---simple...put 2 OUTSTANDING dogs together (working ability FIRST AND FOREMOST, structure, temperament etc. etc) that compliment each other, be objective about those dogs (aka don't get caught up in emotion and say that your pet dog is the "best Border collie ever" and breed her because you love her)--breed and cross your fingers that there are some nice pups that are born . Genetics cannot guarantee anything but if you start with outstanding dogs--then you have a much better chance.

 

Again..all my opinions

[Liz P]

I bought a pup from parents who were Open trial winners and moved livestock for movies. The breeder picked him out for me because he was much less intense and more suited as a pet than as a sheepdog. He was absolutely perfect for me. While he did require a lot more training and exercise than other breeds he was unusually mellow for a BC.

 

When I bought my next dog I asked for a working pup. He was so much more intense than the first and took a lot more effort and skill to train and raise.

 

For the next pup I asked for one who could take me to the top as an Open dog. She made the second BC look easy by comparison and the first like a smart Lab in a BC body.

 

It's all about finding a quality breeder who can help you find what you need and who is willing to pass up your money if they think none of the pups suite you.

[Liz P]

Someone just said this to me and I think it is so true I had to share it! I've taken out the breeder's name...

 

"The fact that people have to fawn all over ***** is clue enough that

one might wanna stay away from her. If the people that buy dogs from a breeder

seem like groupies----that should/would be a red flag for me.

 

A good breeders dogs sell themselves..ya know??"

 

I had never thought about this before but it is so true! I've asked for opinions about really well respected breeders and gotten very honest but mixed answers. People speak very highly about the good ones but are willing to talk about their faults without getting defensive.

 

I came so close to buying a pup from a "perfect" breeder. The pup I wanted didn't work out for me. Not long after I found a whole community of people who had been burned by that breeder. I realized with her there were two camps, those who worshipped the ground she walked on and those who knew the truth and would NEVER buy a pup from her or suggest her to anyone.