poor breeding thread

[Howdyjabo]

Ahhh-- you keep throwing me becasue of your wording. Rules and regulations means ABCA or USBCHA-- They are the only groups involved that can do any type of santioning or "punishing". Either by removing papers or ability to compete.

 

Thats not gonna happpen.

 

USBCC- doesn't control anything. They offer services and information to Border Collie owners.

One of these services that is being concidered is a Breeders Listing Put on their website.

More than that it will have information on "red flags" to help buyers pick out which breeders they want to support. There will be a few SET rules to be listed that go with USBCC philosopy ,that will focus the paramaters of breeders.Like no dual registering,no AKC breeders, and probably some kind of limit on dogs that are bred(this is supposed to help the little guy not the high volume well established breeders that breed for a living-- so a limit will float-- they just don't have to participate).

 

The goal is to give buyers an easy way to find working dogs over other dogs-- and makes sure at the same time that they have the information at hand to weed out and find exactly what they personally want to support-- and hopefully bring PRESSURE on breeders to create what informed buyers want to support.

 

Those breeders that don't like the service just don't participate-- and it doesn't effect their opperation in any way shape or means. Like messing with papers or trialing would.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks Tonya.

[juliepoudrier]

Nice post Tonya. Thank you.

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tonya

 

Is this the Tonya that I know? If so, WELCOME!!!

 

She loves her dogs as much as I love mine!!!

 

Diane

[Eileen Stein]

Tonya, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

Christi,

 

>

 

Germans are reputed to love regulations, no?

 

http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/appease I generally give the first entry the most importance. >>

 

Fair enough, but the first entry is "to bring to a state of peace or quiet." I couldn't see how that applied, because the good breeders are already in a state of peace or quiet, the ABCA does not need to bring them there. The one I quoted was the only one that I could fit to what you were saying.

 

>

 

I just have to assume you have no idea of what would be involved. It's on a par with saying "Just do something to bring about world peace. That should be possible? I don't know how it can be done, you tell me, you're the diplomats." If it was that easy, don't you think we'd be happy, HAPPY to do it? But if any of us who've wrestled ourselves dizzy for years trying to think of a way of doing it say it can't be done, you say something like

 

 

I'll stop asking questions now. >>

 

with the implication that we're naysayers who just don't care enough to try. That's why I keep begging for concrete proposals -- because when people start thinking about the gruesome details they begin to see what the problems are. If you can come up with something that is doable, I will bless your name. But just saying, "You could do something if you really wanted to" isn't all that helpful.

[Kyrasmom]

with the implication that we're naysayers who just don't care enough to try. That's why I keep begging for concrete proposals -- because when people start thinking about the gruesome details they begin to see what the problems are. If you can come up with something that is doable, I will bless your name. But just saying, "You could do something if you really wanted to" isn't all that helpful.

I don't believe that anyone here on the list is a naysayer or doesn't care but it's also not fair to not say that suggestions haven't been put forth in the past few days. Now, whether or not they're workable is another thing, but people are trying to help but so far most everything has been shot down and not always with reasons that make sense to all of us as we don't walk in your shoes.

 

But at least people are talking and thinking...and that's always a start.

[Maralynn]

First of all, very well put, Tonya!

 

Second, most of the ABCA folks who activly participate in this board are doing alot to try and remedy the BYB/puppymill/irresponsible breeder. How many folks on this board have had their opinions changed by information shared here?

I know that I once considered buying a pup from what I now consider a irresponsible/BYB. I wouldn't think of it now. Why? because I started lurking on these boards.

 

No these boards and the folks who participate aren't going to change the world when it comes to puppymills. But they are doing a great job in the corner they are in. I'm sure that there are dozens more like me who have been enlightend because the USBBC created this site and for that they, and the ABCA folks who add so much here, should be greatly commended.

[Tonya]

Originally posted by DeltaBluez Tess:

Tonya

 

Is this the Tonya that I know? If so, WELCOME!!!

 

She loves her dogs as much as I love mine!!!

 

Diane

Yes Diane, it's me! Long time no talk!

[Tonya]

Originally posted by Maralynn:

First of all, very well put, Tonya!

 

Second, most of the ABCA folks who activly participate in this board are doing alot to try and remedy the BYB/puppymill/irresponsible breeder. How many folks on this board have had their opinions changed by information shared here?

I know that I once considered buying a pup from what I now consider a irresponsible/BYB. I wouldn't think of it now. Why? because I started lurking on these boards.

 

No these boards and the folks who participate aren't going to change the world when it comes to puppymills. But they are doing a great job in the corner they are in. I'm sure that there are dozens more like me who have been enlightend because the USBBC created this site and for that they, and the ABCA folks who add so much here, should be greatly commended.

I hope that nobody thought I was putting these boards down, not at all! It is boards like these and the people who have websites and TRULY care enough about the breed to talk to other people that do educate people. This is a good thing! My point was, that I just don't think most people "want" to be educated. They don't care.

 

I once got a phone call from a lady who wanted a puppy. She told me from the start that she had young children and wanted to know if a Border Collie was right for her, I spent 30 minutes talking to her, explaining Border Collies and children and that it can be done, but you must know what you are doing, and then asked how many children she had. Four, says she. Okay fine, and their ages? Four says she. And I was like, no not how many, what ages? Four, says she, they are quadruplets. Well at this point I about fell out of my chair. Anybody who has 4 Four year olds and thinks they need a dog, let alone a puppy, let alone a Border Collie was just completely out of their mind. I told her to buy a goldfish!

 

Tonya

[Gary M]

Mark,

I do not disagree whith what you said about the attitude, however it was no less snide or filled with attitude than

" I get tired of every thread being hijacked by the folks who think rescue and their nonbreeding policies are the only ones to be considered." or "So, if pups aren't killed by hitting with a spanner or smacking against a wall but are drowned, is that okay? "

From Penny or

"END of STORY

I'm sorry SPotty dog felt like she was beating her head against a brick wall-- but she was. " or

"Buyers are STUPID about buying" or "Gary you really are pissing me off."

From KillerH

 

Now could you reference me to the post where you or anyone from the "other side of the fence" so to speak showed displeasure in those attitudes.

 

p.s. Yes I will admit I get short tempered at times, but when it has happened, I have apologized for my actions both publicly and privately (as you know).

[Gary M]

KillerH,

It is not that I am ignoring the USBCC references you gave, it is that I am reading through all of the various online references that are available on the website that relate to this issue.

 

For example:

BEWARE OF BREEDERS USING NEGATIVE ADVERTISING TO SUGGEST THAT ANYONE NOT A MEMBER OF THEIR ORGANIZATION, AND HENCE NOT A SUBSCRIBER TO THEIR CODE OF ETHICS, IS AN UNETHICAL BREEDER

 

I believe that sentence should be reworded in some way because it could be turned around by an uneducated buyer saying "But isn't that what YOU are doing with references to the AKC and BCSA?" so it looks like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Yes? No? (Not from your educated about BC's point of view, but try to look at it from the other POV)

[2 Devils]

I missed the other thread but will add my .02 cents.

 

I agree that in many ways it is a culture thing.

 

My dogs are pets first and competitors (flyball) last. My dogs will always stay with me but I can understand herding folks needing to rehome a dog that does not work out or someone needing to rehome a dog because the newest addition is causing major problems (aggression type things). I do not agree with putting dogs in rescue because the person did not think ahead about buying a dog and not doing research.

 

Breeders who do not take a dog back is in the wrong. If you breed you should take the dogs back and/or rehome yourself... The dog should not end up in rescue.

 

Registries do not have enough say in what happens with breeders and buyers. There is always a way around it. You have backyard breeders that advertise in the paper and buyers who buy from the paper and don't care about registry paperwork. If you set regulations, a breeder can change their phone they use for advertising - 1 litter home number, 1 litter cell phone, 1 number work number, etc... how can anyone research all the folks advertising in the paper. Who will pay for it?

 

When it comes to preaching about what you think is right or wrong - you need to remember pestering, nagging and harrassing will not go very far. That is like someone telling me I HAVE to do something instead of ASKING me to do something. Which do you think I will be more likely to listen to? I will usually do what is asked and will get pissed being told what to do.

 

Educating the general public would help as long as you don't TELL them what they should do or think. One or 2 breed registries will NOT have much say. For things to change the majority of breed registries needs to step up to educate.

 

Kim - Off My Soap Box

[Maralynn]

I hope that nobody thought I was putting these boards down, not at all! It is boards like these and the people who have websites and TRULY care enough about the breed to talk to other people that do educate people. This is a good thing! My point was, that I just don't think most people "want" to be educated. They don't care.

Not at all what I thought . I was just pointing out that educating folks on these boards was one effective way to combat irresponsible breeders. But, as you stated, there are lots of folks who just don't care.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

It's an awkward sentence and perhaps could use rewording, but no, I don't think that's what we are doing. If we said, "Anyone who isn't a member of the USBCC is an unethical breeder," or "Anyone who doesn't register with the ABCA is an unethical breeder," then you would have a point, but I've never heard anyone say something like that. I certainly have never said it. But there are quite a few websites of BCSA breeders which pretty much say that if you're not a member of the BCSA, or not a signatory to the BCSA Code of Ethics, then you're not an ethical breeder.

 

Mopping up:

 

>

 

I can't give you exact figures, Mike, but there are between 4,000 and 5,000 voting members of the ABCA (that's probably about half the total membership, but I figured voting members were what you cared about). I think there are 500-600 members of the HA, so even if you assume that nearly every member of the HA belongs to the ABCA (which I do assume), they are a small fraction of the ABCA's membership.

 

>

 

Jodi, we were talking about having a piece on the ABCA website directed at people who were interested in getting a border collie, in the hope of reaching them with useful information before they buy. We already have a paper pamphlet called "Choosing Your Border Collie" but since space is not a consideration on a website the way it is in a pamphlet, I had been hoping to beef up the pamphlet. Anyway, I invited anyone who is interested to send me your thoughts on what information you think should be in such a piece -- either ideas, or a complete draft, or anything in between. If you want to send me something (at eileen@bordercollie.org) by March 10, I will work on incorporating your suggestions with the existing pamphlet and my own ideas and try to come up with something by March 17 that I hope would be approved for posting.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

TONYA!!!

 

Welcome. I am so glad you have joined us.

 

Folks, I know Tonya from way back when. She will be stepping up to the post hopefully soon (she doesn't know this yet but I am sending vibes to her on that subject)....and she is working stock with her dogs.......and has a LOT to offer to this board!!

 

Welcome and please keep posting!!!

 

Diane

[Tonya]

But there are quite a few websites of BCSA breeders which pretty much say that if you're not a member of the BCSA, or not a signatory to the BCSA Code of Ethics, then you're not an ethical breeder.

Eileen,

 

Could you please send me a personal message with some of these websites? I could probably guess, but I am interested to know.

 

My website hasn't been updated in, oh; about 3 years, (bad Tonya) but I certainly don't say anything like that. And I am not a member of the BCSA either.

 

BTW, we have met Eileen, although I didn't introduce myself. I saw you run a nice little bitch; I think it was, a few years back at Monticello. When you had finished I said something like nice run or that. I do love going to see the trials!

 

Tonya

[Northof49]

"The reason I don't understand the logic behind "rules = registry falls apart" is because I've been a German shepherd "person" (working dogs, NOT AKC) for the past 15 years or so. Their breed club, the Verein f?r Deutsche Schaferhunde or SV, is the largest single breed club in the world. It's been around for nearly 100 years and how did it begin? The founder and his board layed down very strict breeding regulations- breeding dogs were and still are required to have Schutzhund titles (the GSDs temerament and working ability test) a passing conformation rating and eventually hip ratings"

 

But for every breeder that chooses to register with them and uphold its breeding rules and regulations, how many other breeders register their dogs elsewhere? I would imagine thousands of them. So the success of the registry is that is hasn't folded, because there are people that like its standards and want to register their dogs with it.

 

(As an aside, I have always wondered why GSDs and the Belgian Shepherds have not been transferred to the Working Group years ago with the Dobermans and Rotties, as their working abilty tests all deal with protection work and nothing to do with stock work.)

 

If, way back when, the rules of some of the Eurpoean countries were implemented when dog breeding first started in North America, restrictions on breeding would be the norm today and we would have to be dealing with puppy mills, byb, need shelters and rescues. I honestly don't know how you would ever reverse the norm now. Personally I don't think we can, except through education. Unfortunately there are only so many people that want to be educated, just like there are only so many people that want to get a handle on their drug addiction, etc.

 

Years and years ago (makes me think I need to order a walker for myself) NASDS had a requirement that every second generation of border collies had to be certified in order for the pups to be registered with them.

 

For example Lassie & Jed are registered iwth NASDS have a litter of pups. That litter can be registered with NASDS. I keep one pup out of the litter - Jess. I breed her. In order for her litter to be registered wiwth NASDS she and the stud have to be tested for working ability.

 

When I got our Keri in 1976, her parents were being "cerified" by a representative of NASDS the same day we went to see the pups. The dogs were required to perform all the tasks that were expected of them on a day to day bases. I think that was pretty much the last test that NASDS did, at least up here in Canada.

 

I don't remember how many years this certificatgion was in existence. I do know that it failed in the end because of not being able to have enough qualified people to be able to do the testing. This litter was just outside of Lloydminster, Alberta and the tester had come all the way up from Montana to do the testing. So he drove all the way up there, spent approximately 4 hours working both the dam and sire, then had a bite to eat and headed off back home. So it took this guy roughly 4 days to certify the working ability of those dogs, and while he was gone, he had to find someone to look after his farm in his absence. He did not get paid for it. The logistics just became too much and NASDS ended the certification. It simply couldn't be maintained because of lack of manpower.

[Northof49]

Originally posted by Northof49:

"The reason I don't understand the logic behind "rules = registry falls apart" is because I've been a German shepherd "person" (working dogs, NOT AKC) for the past 15 years or so. Their breed club, the Verein f?r Deutsche Schaferhunde or SV, is the largest single breed club in the world. It's been around for nearly 100 years and how did it begin? The founder and his board layed down very strict breeding regulations- breeding dogs were and still are required to have Schutzhund titles (the GSDs temerament and working ability test) a passing conformation rating and eventually hip ratings"

 

But for every breeder that chooses to register with them and uphold its breeding rules and regulations, how many other breeders register their dogs elsewhere? I would imagine thousands of them. So the success of the registry is that is hasn't folded, because there are people that like its standards and want to register their dogs with it.

 

(As an aside, I have always wondered why GSDs and the Belgian Shepherds have not been transferred to the Working Group years ago with the Dobermans and Rotties, as their working abilty tests all deal with protection work and nothing to do with stock work.)

 

If, way back when, the rules of some of the Eurpoean countries were implemented when dog breeding first started in North America, restrictions on breeding perhaps would be the norm today and we would not have to be dealing with puppy mills, byb, need shelters and rescues. I honestly don't know how you would ever reverse the norm now. Personally I don't think we can, except through education. Unfortunately there are only so many people that want to be educated, just like there are only so many people that want to get a handle on their drug addiction, etc.

 

Years and years ago (makes me think I need to order a walker for myself) NASDS had a requirement that every second generation of border collies had to be certified in order for the pups to be registered with them.

 

For example Lassie & Jed are registered iwth NASDS have a litter of pups. That litter can be registered with NASDS. I keep one pup out of the litter - Jess. I breed her. In order for her litter to be registered wiwth NASDS she and the stud have to be tested for working ability.

 

When I got our Keri in 1976, her parents were being "cerified" by a representative of NASDS the same day we went to see the pups. The dogs were required to perform all the tasks that were expected of them on a day to day bases. I think that was pretty much the last test that NASDS did, at least up here in Canada.

 

I don't remember how many years this certificatgion was in existence. I do know that it failed in the end because of not being able to have enough qualified people to be able to do the testing. This litter was just outside of Lloydminster, Alberta and the tester had come all the way up from Montana to do the testing. So he drove all the way up there, spent approximately 4 hours working both the dam and sire, then had a bite to eat and headed off back home. So it took this guy roughly 4 days to certify the working ability of those dogs, and while he was gone, he had to find someone to look after his farm in his absence. He did not get paid for it. The logistics just became too much and NASDS ended the certification. It simply couldn't be maintained because of lack of manpower.

[Denise Wall]

Tonya,

 

Since you live in Va and are interested in sheepdog trials, why don't you come out to Sam Furman's trial this weekend. A bunch of us from this board will be there. See this thread for the info:

 

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...ic;f=8;t=000269

 

Hope to see you there.

[Tonya]

Denise,

 

I wish I could, but I am up in Manassas, and that is too far for me to drive in one day. However, I am sure I will meet you sometime in the future and this time I will introduce myself!

 

My son is graduating this spring and then I am free to go wherever I want, which has not been decided yet, except that it won't be a city! Anybody got a room for rent? I have reproductive and regular vet tech experience and experience worming and herding up goats!

 

Tonya

[Denise Wall]

Tonya,

 

There's a good repro vet in Sanford, here in NC. Lota goats down that way too. Let me know if you need contact info.

 

And although I haven't moved, I sure understand about kids graduating and leaving. As my husband says, it's all about US now. Until grandkids...

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tonya,

 

Folks are always looking for help at a trial, scribing, setout, exhaust and so forth. The pay is lousy but you will have fun. Great way to get your feet wet, so to speak.

 

Next thing you know, you will heading to the post with a dog in tow and ALL OF US will be cheering you on!!!!

 

The Finals are my way this year and should you *happen* to be in the area, we sure could use your help too...plus you can swing by my place and work dogs. Didn't bring a dog?????....don't worry I have several who are more than willing to step out with you.

 

You will find that Eileen, Sam, Denise and company are great and warm people.....I know, I certainly did!!

 

Diane

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm selling my farm, Tonya, does that help?

 

The guy I'm renting from in Semora has little cabins on a 100 acre property for rent for $500, no prob with dogs. But they are RUSTIC. And it would be a long haul to Sanford - there might be another vet specialist clinic in the Triangle area you could work for, however.

[Pipedream Farm]

Tonya,

 

There will be a trial coming up soon (date tbd) in White Post VA. Keep en eye on the Trial and Clinic Announcements section.

 

Mark

[Guest blessedmom]

RMD-- USBCC could eaily list dogs that have gone thru rescue that the breeders refused to take back-- that way the buyers that cared about that would know not to support them. Not to mention a little public pressure might make them alot more concerned

 

 

Could you get into legal trouble for doing this? If not I can get a site put together!

 

Now that the AKC has a hold on the breed we will see more in rescue, One reason is more people breeding a working breed for looks thus selling them to people who dont know the history on them and 2 now the wonderful puppymills will be selling AKC dogs to the pet stores and such. I think we have a horrible road in front of us.