Yeah thats right I said it!!

[Dixie_Girl]

Here is the real crux of it all. For every backyard, puppy mill type breeder, etc. out there, there are many more breeding responsibly. For every AKC breeder, breeding for conformation, there are none breeding for working. And while things like agility, flyball, etc. are GREAT for proper bred BCs that don't cut it at herding, or just because that's what the owner wants to do, it is also the reason for dogs in rescue. These events are being televised more and more. People watch these amazing dogs winning and looking good doing it, and they rush out to get one. Just like when Disney's 101 Dalmations came out, everyone was buying dalmations. Not knowing ANYTHING about the breed at all. Then you had them overflowing rescues. They have so many with health issues etc.. Because they became "POPULAR" with the impulsive public. People who trial and have working ranches would NEVER buy from one of those backyard/puppy mill breeders. So who is doing the demand part of their existense? People who say wow look at that dog! I gotta get one and go to the agility shows and teach it to play frisby and wow it will be so cool, I gotta get one! Where's the newspaper? Ahh, there we go. Then the pup comes home, and gee this is a lot of work, and gee this dog is weird, and gee something is wrong with this stupid dog, and gee, I really DON'T want to do agility.......whats the number to the pound? They always find good homes........

 

To say that ABCA could do something is pie in the sky. Educating the public is the only way to stop this. And when you get people in the mind set of wanting one no matter what, it is hard. AKC breeders will breed FOR ONE REASON ONLY! And that is to win in the shows. Otherwise there is no reason to breed.

 

Like I said, people who love the breed and work their dogs will never buy from these dispicable breeders. And you will find that if the rush to get the amazing dog that wins in agility tapers off, these puppy mills will be breeding the next fad to come along. Which is why it IS so important that rescues are spade/neutered. It is the only way we have at the time to STOP the bad breeding resulting traits from continueing. And even if the rescue dogs can't do herding, they still have so much to offer and can still have a rich and fulfilling life.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I've seen that, and I've seen worse. We are in accord in feeling awful about it.

 

""You've got no business criticizing the AKC when there are bad breeders registering with the ABCA!" Statements like that make no sense to me, but there are lots of people who don't seem to see the illogic in them. "

 

That is not at all what I said, you can criticize the AKC all you like, justifiably even, my point was that bad breeding extended beyond JUST the AKC when a poster above laid the blame of BC's in rescue at only the AKC's door. >>

 

I didn't attribute that statement to you (although I do think you were objecting to criticism of the AKC on the ground that the ABCA has bad breeders whose dogs end up in rescue) -- it's something that's said over and over again by lots of people.

 

The "poster above" did not "lay the blame of BCs in rescue at only the AKC's door." She said "most," not "all." And by following that up with "Out of sight, out of mind. That is how breeds are kept safe," she made it clear that her point was not that AKC breeders produce most of the dogs in rescue, but that AKC popularization of the breed is responsible for most (in her opinion) of the dogs in rescue.

[Kyrasmom]

I stand corrected, she said most, not all, and at the moment it's still not accurate and some is debatable. I will never oppose criticism of the AKC, after my first puppymill raid of AKC registered dogs, I realized that their bottom line is only money.

 

The bottom line for me are the dogs and the ethics and integrity behind the breeders that make them, that's really all it is about for me.

[Journey]

For example, the little bitch I talked about earlier that is bred at every heat, is proudly touted as ABCA, as is the stud dog and the puppies. If you could see her, worn, older than her years, and kept in barely humane conditions (but she has fresh water and food so animal control can't do anything) maybe you would better understand what I'm trying to say. And of course, none of the kept pups are ever spayed and neutered so who knows what's next.

There is a possible way to help in this case. We had a guy here in our area, 8 bitches 2 stud dogs. At $350 a pup he was raking in the money (bred every heat) only problem was that he wasn't reporting it to the IRS and we got them involved. We had about 10 of his "pups" in rescue at one point, got to where you could recognise where they came from...he was way more than your average BYB. He no longer has Border Collies.

 

Karen

[lrayburn]

The biggest threat that the AKC poses to the border collie is clearly illustrated by a conversation that I had with a woman who breeds Weimeraners and shows AKC conformation and obedience.

 

She said that she would like to have a border collie at some point but had been specifically told by members of the AKC obedience club to look for a dog that was several generations away from being bred for work. The assumption was that the conformation-bred dog would not be as highstrung as a "working" border collie.

 

I hope that my response disabused her of this notion but the fact that the AKC or members of the AKC are actively pushing the philosophy of breeding and seeking border collies for non-working purposes is detrimental to the breed in the longrun. With that mindset, we will see more of those dogs winding up in rescue down the road.

Lisa

[Katelynn & Gang]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I don't know that they're registered, but I do know they're from working stock.

This shocked me a bit.

 

You've stated you own three Barbie Collies and that none have been tested or trained on stock. From this, I am guessing you've never done stock work with any dog or breed, otherwise it'd be highly unlikely that you would own Barbie Collies.

 

So, how did you come to determine that these dogs in the shelters near you are indeed from "working stock?" And not from flyball, agility, conformation, puppy mill, or back yard breeders, all of which would more then likely be AKC registered or even dualed AKC/ABCA registered for sells?

 

Just because dogs in shelters do not fit the AKC "breed standard" does not mean they are from the ABCA or working stock.

 

Just because dogs in shelters have blazes, white legs, and collars of any extent does not mean they are Border Collies either, which, in many cases, they are not.

 

I know coat and color means all to you AKC folk but it doesn't make any dog without "cookie cutter" markings "of working stock."

 

When I talk of working breeders, IMO, that is a limited number of breeders that only breed the best of the breed for sheer instinct, intelligence, and soundness. These breeders that fit into this limited number would never allow or let their dogs go to places where they'd end up in any of the above situations or AKC registered for that matter.

 

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

The bottom line for me are the dogs and the ethics and integrity behind the breeders that make them, that's really all it is about for me .

And you have AKC Barbie Collies because?

 

The ethics and integrity of any Border Collie breeder should be to keep the breed as it was when it fisrt worked the hills in the United Kingdom! If not, what is the worth of ethics and integrity in breeding Border Collies?

 

Katelynn

[Kyrasmom]

So, how did you come to determine that these dogs in the shelters near you are indeed from "working stock?"

Because in the specific case of these pups (as stated above) I knew who the parents were, when the mom had given birth, how many puppies she had and how many went missing when they later ended up at the pound, a kill facility by the way. Quite simple really. And yes, working stock. I doubt these pups were registered as they were slated for death, but the parents are.

 

Our community, rural and small that it is, is not of the kennel club type mentatility. Unfortunately, it's not of the best type of dog ownership type mentality either. Again, stated above, we have lots of cattle farms and lots of real working dogs kept in abismal conditions that breed at will.

 

Just because dogs in shelters do not fit the AKC "breed standard" does not mean they are from the ABCA or working stock.

No, of course not, and there are plenty of AKC registered dogs that are American type BC's versus the Aussie type that are in shelters BUT the dogs I see in our shelter are for the most part from working stock, i.e. the parents or siblings reside on a farm and work cattle or sheep. Then of course you have the giveaways from said litters that go on to procreate because nobody bothers to spay and neuter...so

 

When I talk of working breeders, IMO, that is a limited number of breeders that only breed the best of the breed for sheer instinct, intelligence, and soundness. These breeders that fit into this limited number would never allow or let their dogs go to places where they'd end up in any of the above situations or AKC registered for that matter.

In an ideal world, this would be it, but unfortunately, the term breeder is applicable to anyone who breeds a dog, thus you have good breeders and you have bad breeders. And bad breeders register with both the AKC and ABCA and whatever else there may be.

 

I have Barbie Collie's because I probably did too little research into the breed, I come from Italy where the Barbie Collie is most of what is available. Most working shepherd dogs are mixes, often fluffy actually, but rarely have I seen a Border Collie of any kind herd sheep in Italy...and believe me, I rode for weeks with a herd of sheep every summer and the shepherd dogs looked more like wolves than they did anything I've seen around here.

 

Having said that, I love my pups, duh, and respect them for what they bring to my life. I wouldn't breed them but I also wouldn't buy a pup from the farmer down the road that has ABCA registered working dogs. To me, and I know that many here will disagree, the ethics and integrity of breeding should also protect the individual dogs that come into the world and not ONLY the working capability. The little bitch down the road seems to do her job just fine, it's a shame that she's fear aggressive, twitchy and nervous all the time, and has no faith in humans...then again given her owners...who can blame her.

 

I'm sorry but I will never agree that the AKC is the sole or most pressing reason that Border Collie's end up in rescue, or let me rephrase, accuse the AKC all you like, but don't ignore that there are ABCA dogs that end up in rescue because there are bad ABCA breeders. May the AKC be an accentuating factor down the road, of course, I've actually agreed to that various times (if you actually read my posts versus just take exception to what you could and accuse me of thinking that any dog with white socks is a BC) but the truth is that Border Collie's have been in rescue (or abandoned, or drowned, or whatever other fate their "breeder" sent them to) before the AKC began registering them.

 

If you can prove to me that ABCA breeders are all ethical and conform to the ideals you listed above, I'll happily eat crow and grovel for forgiveness. It would really make me happy. Truly.

[kajarrel]

The problem with this conversation is that it's confounding seperate issues. AKC unashamedly and actively promotes conformation breeding. Neither ABCA nor AKC, to my knowledge, condone puppy mills or BYB.

 

The fact that the AKC affiliates mention "the large number of BC's that end up in rescue and explains why" doesn't ameliorate what the harm they're doing to the breed in terms of the first point. I'm not ready to give them a pat on the back - "talk's" easy.

 

Kim

[Smokjbc]

I have 3 Barbie Collies and 2 B BC mixes plus one in foster. I've had the opportunity to meet some working BC's and was very impressed with the dogs themselves but not so impressed with the owners who use them to work cattle...and breed the bitch at every heat.

>>Kyrasmom

 

I am sorry if I mis-understood this- but what is your objection to Border Collies working cattle?

 

I do, OTOH, understand being upset about the breeding on every heat.

[Dixie_Girl]

I don't think she meant she didn't approve of them BECAUSE they used the dogs to work cattle. She didn't approve of their breeding ethics, in spite of them being a "working ranch". JMO I think,,,,,,,,,,

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Smokjbc:

I have 3 Barbie Collies and 2 B BC mixes plus one in foster. I've had the opportunity to meet some working BC's and was very impressed with the dogs themselves but not so impressed with the owners who use them to work cattle...and breed the bitch at every heat.

>>Kyrasmom

 

I am sorry if I mis-understood this- but what is your objection to Border Collies working cattle?

 

I do, OTOH, understand being upset about the breeding on every heat.

I have none, I was referring to how I felt about the owners and their poor breeding practices.

 

Maria

[Katelynn & Gang]

I thought I was being clear but I guess not.

 

I'll try and make this easier for you to understand because I believe you are more then capabile of understanding but maybe, just not willing to.

 

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

One litter that I fostered came from a local ranch, they wanted/needed new pups to train, bred their own dogs, kept the winners, and left the losers behind a supermarket dump in freezing weather. Given that it's a small community, it wasn't hard to find out where the pups came from.

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

Because in the specific case of these pups (as stated above) I knew who the parents were, when the mom had given birth, how many puppies she had and how many went missing when they later ended up at the pound, a kill facility by the way. Quite simple really.

This seems fishy to me when compared. I feel as though I cannot directly reflect to either quotes because they seem to vary from one another.

 

What you described in both quotes above would be considered a "Back Yard Breeder" and nothing more by most but I thought for sure by a experienced rescuer of Border Collies.

 

What rescue are a apart of? Or is it just a private rescue you run?

 

Katelynn

[Kyrasmom]

No, I think you're not willing to concede that there are working farms with working dogs that breed irresponsibly. That is ALL that I am disputing. I'm more or less in agreement with your ideals but not that every ABCA breeder out there lives up to the standards you wrote about.

 

Call it backyard breeder with a big back yard, call it anything you like, but it doesn't change that the bitch is an ABCA registered dog, she works on a cattle farm, and her pups, twice yearly, end up in the pound, or given away at the supermarket, or worse. It's not even a matter of greed to these particular people, just ignorance. Plain and simple. Whether you like the term or not, they are a breeder.

 

The bottom line is that you can have BYB, you can have puppymills, you can have working dog breeders, Barbie Dog breeders, and any other defintion that you feel comfortable with, but the seperation is between responisible breeders and irresponsible breeders, because like it or not, once they breed, they're a breeder.

 

And I really feel that I owe you no explanation as to what I do, however I'm part of an all-breed rescue, I foster, I spay/neuter, I train, I rehabilitate, I place. We pull our dogs from the local kill facility as it's small, understaffed, and overworked and puts to sleep about 10 dogs a day. We place about 250 dogs per year. Sometimes I have cattle dog puppies running around, and sometimes I have pit bulls. It doesn't much matter to me, they all deserve a second chance.

 

So answer this if you will, why is it so hard for you to fathom that there are ABCA members with working farms and working dogs that are irresponsible with their breeding practices?

[Sue R]

Katelynn - I think your recent comments are becoming accusatory and inappropriate. There is nothing contradictory about the two quotes you reference. You seem to be looking for an argument with Maria, and I don't believe you are justified. This is a very emotional issue for all of us, and I don't think we need to be divided on it.

 

The sad truth is that there are people from both the kennel club world and the working dog world who take advantage and exploit the dogs, and it is a shame for all concerned.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

No, I think you're not willing to concede that there are working farms with working dogs that breed irresponsibly.

I'm willing to concede this.

 

But you should be aware that the terms "working bred", "from working parents", "working dogs", etc are subjective and we sould be careful how these terms are used. They can be used just like the conformation and sport breeders say their pups are from "working lines".

 

There is this farmer in the next town over from us. Before he retired, he had sheep and "working" border collies. He'd walk out to the field and tell his dogs to go get them and that's how he trained them.

 

These dogs lived on a sheep farm and did gather the sheep. If you bought a pup from him he could say they were from working parents and he could show you.

 

Would you consider these working border collies and working bred pups?

 

Mark

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Actually, right now, Mark, that's a pretty good example of one of the kinds of person I think SHOULD be breeding. If they went and got the sheep correctly, of course. Better that then breeding them because they only take 3.5 sec to run a flyball course or throw pups that are world beaters in agility. I think that's a terrific example of Denise's "yellow" or "orange" genetics.

 

Actual breeding practices are another story. I hate it when this debate richochets in a messy manner among BYBs, millers, conformation breeders, and sportie breeders. Exploitation, as Sue said so well, can happen at every level. I could even name some top trialers that I'd consider to be over the line in their breeding and placement practices.

 

If the AKC continues to be successful at promoting the Border collie as just another pretty dog, then there will be more Border collies bred and placed inappropriately.

 

Most of the Border collies in the US are ABCA registered, so it will be a long time before the bulk of the pet breeders, millers, and BYB end up under the AKC banner. I have hopes that perhaps there will be some future action on the part of the ABCA to hasten that progress, but I don't think the ABCA is doing less than its mission dictates right now by bascially ignoring these people.

[Kyrasmom]

Oh a trick question! Well, when I tell my dog to go get me his ball he brings it, but I don't call him a retriever or a flyball dog. My parents used to send our standard collie out to get me when I was little, but we didn't label him SAR.

 

I said straight up that I don't work stock, I rode with sheep for the sheer joy of riding my horse but I was not involved in any of the herding, having read the board, I would think the answer would be no, as there seems to be more to it given all the trials and tribulations that I read about.

 

And I really do wish that the true definition of working dog or working bred would resemble Kate's take on it.

 

But what do you call the pup who comes out of parents who both work stock, reside on a working ranch or farm, and are more or less kept solely for that purpose? They're not pets. They're not Barbie Collies. And while they've got temperament issues galore, they seem to get the job done and I said at the beginning, I was very impressed with that working side of them that I had not been exposed to before. But then it's not the dogs I have an issue with.

 

We can play with words all we want, and if you want to label some working dogs with a different label because their training is different, go for it, it doesn't change the problem, at least, that's my opinion.

 

Guys, really, I've got no beef with anyone, I'm as proud of my fluff butts as I am of my bc mixes as I am of my pitt mix. I respect that you want to preserve the working instinct in a breed you love THAT much. I applaud it. But this thread was about BC's in rescue and like it or not, there are dogs from both registries behind bars because they were irresponsibly bred.

 

I see two seperate issues here, one is the issue of breed seperation and the wrongness of breeding for conformation, sport or however you want to label it. You want to preserve the working abilities of the Border Collie because a well bred working dog from a responsible breeder can be both pet and partner. I get it, really I do. You can all put down your baseball bats.

 

Second is the more individual issue of dogs in rescue, the AKC promotion is definitely a concern and one that shouold not be taken lightly, but just as concerning is the multitude of small private farms or ranches out in the boonies (as I refer to our area) that use dogs for work, put little effort into their health, well-being and training, and breed them simply because they can. Let's not even consider the trickle down effect from all these breedings because I might just hit myself over the head with a baseball bat when I realize that what I do sometimes seems for nothing.

[Sue R]

Maria - Your rescue work does matter, and I think everyone on the boards knows and appreciates that. It is a matter of life and death for every single dog you save and rehome, or the difference between a life full of misery and a life full of love and contentment.

 

You can't save them all, and you can't rid the world of all its evils, but you can make a world of difference for just one dog at a time. I thank God for people who care like you do.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

Actually, right now, Mark, that's a pretty good example of one of the kinds of person I think SHOULD be breeding.

Rebecca, I should have been clearer as to my assessment of these dogs. The farmer could refer to them as working border collies; but at best they would be considered "yellow" dogs. Without the understanding of how to train and what was possible from a working border collie; how can these breedings (yellow x yellow) be improving the quality of the breed in general?

 

Worse still, this breeder can say his pups are from working parents, not just that the breeding pair is from "working lines". It will be easier to educate puppy buyers about the difference between "from working lines" and from "working parents" or "working bred" that it will be to educate about red vs orange vs yellow dogs.

 

Mark

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

Actually, right now, Mark, that's a pretty good example of one of the kinds of person I think SHOULD be breeding.

Rebecca, I should have been clearer as to my assessment of these dogs. The farmer could refer to them as working border collies; but at best they would be considered "yellow" dogs. Without the understanding of how to train and what was possible from a working border collie; how can these breedings (yellow x yellow) be improving the quality of the breed in general?...Mark This is even bigger in my mind because we don't know what "band of color" these dogs are really in; they haven't been trained to a level that can prove them - either quality-wise or health-wise. And the farmer obviously is only on the fringes of the "working border collie culture" because he is sub-par in his training methods and expectations for his dogs. This guy is probably selling these "working bred puppies" complete with all their reproductive organs to whoever comes along with cash. He probably doesn't check eyes or hips, and with the little bit of work his dogs actually do, he probably doesn't even notice whether they are actually genetically sound enough to hold up to the rigors of real work (many dogs can work moderately with deafness, overheating issues, epilepsy and hip dysplasia). He probably is not concerned at all with what happens down the road, and whether his pups or their progeny are sold to an amish puppy miller, a BYB or end up in the shelter for behavioral issues from being "working bred with no job to do". He probably doesn't take back puppies that "don't work out" for the new owners, and he may even tell the buyers that they can make their initial investment back by breeding their pup somewhere down the road. To me, this scenario is a far, far scarier threat to the working Border Collie than someone who breeds for "whatever reason" regardless of registration, but takes lifetime responsibility for the pups they produce; sells on spay/neuter or limited registration and takes the time to weed out and educate their buyers.

 

Edited to say - I should have added that I don't agree that Border Collies SHOULD be bred for anything other than their original purpose. I think the "Farmer Browns" and BYB's in this country breeding anything with reproductional qualities far out number the responsible breeders in any venue. These irresponsible breeders may be capitalizing on the Border Collie's perceived reputation, which may be fueled by AKC's recognition of the breed; but whatever their motive (and it is most likely money), they are actually degrading the breed every time they put another litter of cr** puppies on the ground who then go on and have their own puppies, and so on, and so on...

[juliepoudrier]

Not to speak for Rebecca, since she's perfectly capable of speaking for herself, but I understand the point she is making is that these dogs may well have decent working genetics that would put them perhaps in the orange circle if anyone actually bothered to train them. Or even if they are truly yellow dogs, they are valuable because they *actually exhibit* working ability. I'm not defending the farmer, his breeding practices, or anything else along those lines, but if his dogs will gather sheep in a satisfactory manner (and we don't know how they do the job from Mark's post), with little more training or instruction from the owner than "go git 'em" then at least they retain some useful genetics, which is more than can be said for dogs being bred from working lines that have never even seen anything resembling livestock, let alone actually worked it.

 

You can abhor the man, make assumptions about how and where he sells his pups and what claims he makes, but at least if you went to his place and asked to see the parents do something, he'd be able to walk out into the pasture and get the dog(s) to gather the sheep. That says something that agility/flyball/conformation titles don't. (And before anyone gets offended by that last comment, the point is that his dogs are apparently useful on stock with little or no training, not a claim that folks breeding from "working lines" but with other purposes in mind can necessarily make.) [edited to add: The point of these comments is that the standards of your average farmer who needs help from a dog may well be quite different from the standards of the person who wants to win the national finals, but in the greater scheme of things, the farmer's needs (standards) are important too--after all, in my mind there are lots more farmers out there who could benefit from a dog with useful working genetics than there are folks who have the time and inclination to trial, trial, trial.]

 

Hmmmm...wonder if I should get out the flame-retardant suit now....

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

Where is the post with Denise's orange and yellow genetic refrence? Sounds interesting.

Kristen

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What Julie said.

 

And the farmer obviously is only on the fringes of the "working border collie culture" because he is sub-par in his training methods and expectations for his dogs.

I definitely don't think the majoirty of Border collies should be bred from this sort of background. But I guess I focused immediately on the fact that these dogs work in SPITE of this felow's "sub-par" training methods.

 

Which pup is going to be more useful to a farmer, one that comes from these parents and gathers stock naturally, or one that comes from well-trained parents, but needs careful guidance by an experienced hand, to learn to work sensibly?

 

I realize that's a false dilemna and we're likely to get either type of pup from either type of breeding. But in this specific example I wanted us to consider carefully how we are judging the farmer who doesn't bother to train his useful dogs any higher than what he needs them trained.

 

I'd like to keep the issue of whether his dogs are "worthy" seperate from the consideration of whether he does clinical testing, sells to puppymillers, or whether his pups would rather bite a child than look at them. Clearly he's substandard in all those respects, but I DON'T think this farmer should be lumped in with the BYB and millers and non-working breeders. That's going too far, in my opinion.

 

Now, if we can educate the public about proper breeding practices, perhaps people like him will be pressured into better practices. I can remember a time when people like him wouldn't even have sold a pup with its shots up to date.

 

If we make our community a little more welcoming to such as him, maybe he'd even be persuaded to "upgrade" by breeding to a stud he sees at a trial, or buying in a pup. After all, that was part of the original intent of the trials - to demonstrate to farmers the higher grade of work that was possible with a little attention to breeding and training.

 

I wonder if we're getting to be a wee bit clique-ish, starting to see the trials as an end unto themselves rather than just ONE tool to develop a useful farmer's dog?

[juliepoudrier]

Kristen,

Here's the most recent thread in which Denise expains her target theory of working genetics:

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...c;f=10;t=000450

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

I wonder if we're getting to be a wee bit clique-ish, starting to see the trials as an end unto themselves rather than just ONE tool to develop a useful farmer's dog?

Rebecca, first off let me say that I don?t view success on the trial fields as THE standard for breeding; I do see success on many different trial fields and different sheep as a good tool. I don?t see success on straight forward fields with the same type of ?trial sheep? as a good tool. But let me ?flip the coin over?, ability on one farm on the same flock should be considered ONE tool to develop a useful farmer?s dog. Clearly, a useful farm dog for gathering off the same 20 acre fenced field with sheep that routinely go to the barn for feeding will not likely be a useful farm dog for gathering range ewes out west. If the standard to breed to is usefulness on one farm on one flock; what will happen to the breed as a whole? This is the same argument that your rightly pose about setting success on the trial field as the breeding standard.

 

In the case of the farmer I gave as an example, should usefulness on one farm/flock be considered an appropriate breeding standard? Should this person really be someone we want breeding for improving the breed (and not just ?he?s better than those people for breeding?)?

 

Mark