So sad,,,,

[Jodi]

Dita -

 

As all dogs will herd, the basic instinct cannot be lost.

And you're a breeder? How very very sad.

 

Jodi

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

God does not pay his debts with money. Be thankful for the fact your dogs do not know how evil you are.

God? Evil? Are you sure you aren't under the impression that you are on the human cloning forum? And yet you all are accusing us of being hysterically emotional?

 

We are discussing the future of the dogs we have a responsibility for here (we are the USBCC). We are trying to show the dangers of breeding for appearance - the easiest way to show that to newbies is to compare the extremes of show types to the dogs we are familiar with. We have the right to do that - and if we have a bit of fun with it it [edited] - well, sorry, but like you've never gone down that road (I've been on your list in the past and left in disgust at the vulgar and cruel discussions).

 

They are dogs, for Pete's sake. If you are confident that you are doing the right thing by them, why should is bother you if people who think the exact opposite, have a discussion that reflects those views?

 

You can't MAKE us like how your dogs, dead or alive, look. You can't MAKE us believe that what you are doing is anything less than a tragedy. So what's the point of coming over here and exposing yourselves in such a petty way?

[Carson Crazies]

I am for the most part a pet home. I am learning to work sheep with my dog, but at the moment I don't have the sheep farm that I want. Even once I do have it, it probably won't be to the scale I wish it could be. However, any Border Collie I have for the remainder of my years will come from a good working breeding.

 

I don't have to be a rancher or a farmer to cognitively and yes even emotionally recognize what the Border Collie is facing in the US today. If anything the writings from our conformation friends this week highlight even more of what we're up against. Being a pet home or even a hobby farm owner doesn't make it any less real.

 

I'll repeat it because I think it bears repetition: Its not what one does with their dog. Its what those who breed are breeding for and what said breeder does with their dogs (ie livestock work) that matters most to this discussion. I think its an important discussion, and it NEEDS to be had. I think in the US we are at a critical point, and I think we would be unwise to turn a blind eye to our breed and the challenges facing it. We've seen every other breed go the way of working ability (the entire package) extinction after acceptance into the AKC.

 

I don't want to see that happen to the Border Collie. I DO feel a responsibility for seeing that information is given to those who will listen, so that they too will understand what needs to be done in keeping our working Border Collies - Border Collies. I don't think we can sit back complacently and "live and let live". That doesn't mean I'm going to go marching down to a conformation oriented board and shove it down their throats, but I think it needs to be discussed here - SHOULD BE discussed here. That's part of what this board is about.

[bc friend]

Anyne who thinks all dogs will herd should meet my bc/springer Katie! She could change anyone's mind - but I still love her all the same!

[airbear]

Or my Wicked. I love the little minx, but she can't work a lick.

[Guest tamarsh]

Originally posted by Jodi:

Dita -

 

quote:

---

As all dogs will herd, the basic instinct cannot be lost.

And you're a breeder? How very very sad.

 

Jodi

Yes all dogs do have some instinct to herd, as part of the age old instinct to hunt. Do you really believe that when man wanted to domesticate the wolf he only chose the ones who were already trained as sheep dogs LOL thanks you gave me a good giggle

 

Some of you seem to miss the point, that basic dog instinct cannot be lost, it hasn't been lost in thousands of years of domestic dogs. There is a wide enough gene pool worldwide of good sheep dogs the working Border collie is not going to be lost just because there are a lot of quote Barbie dogs about.

 

In a perfect world I'm sure we'd all love to work our dogs, but sadly that world only exists for a lucky few. I'm not going to say live and let live because it's obvious here that many of you cannot.

 

But perhaps this board could be put to better use by searching out new working lines that you all do like, instead of trashing the show dogs lines you don't like.

[Kyrasmom]

"although her face doesn't have that blank, vacant look"

 

And it was going so well....why not stick to critiquing/abhoring the breeders and breeding practices of those who select for looks only instead of critiquing and or attacking any dog based on looks alone.

 

There's nothing vacant or blank about any of my dogs, even my airhead is more intense then most dogs and probably smarter than most people.

 

Maria

[Smokjbc]

Yes all dogs do have some instinct to herd, as part of the age old instinct to hunt. >>

 

Any person who has spent a modicum of time around dogs that actually do herd and dogs that are being evaluated for any kind of herding instinct would understand the difference between that and prey drive.

 

Do you really believe that when man wanted to domesticate the wolf he only chose the ones who were already trained as sheep dogs LOL thanks you gave me a good giggle>>>

 

I'm glad you are enjoying yourself at the expense of the breed. Do you really believe that the modern dog has the ability to herd livestock by default? You are the person who said the basic instinct could not be lost- yet it's been pointed out to you that the ability to herd livestock has been lost in the majority of breeds. The Border Collie is one of the few breeds that retains a consistent ability- yet you discount it as a simple drive that they inherited simply by being descended from wolves?

 

Some of you seem to miss the point, that basic dog instinct cannot be lost, it hasn't been lost in thousands of years of domestic dogs. >>

 

Again, spoken as someone with little experience with working dogs. You think it has not been lost because you don't understand the full value of what it is.

 

There is a wide enough gene pool worldwide of good sheep dogs the working Border collie is not going to be lost just because there are a lot of quote Barbie dogs about.>>

 

I agree with Eileen, whether or not this is true- it is no excuse to take a "wait and see" approach. Maybe there are enough working dogs to off-set any damage the Barbie Collies do- but I think the potential for losing the true character of the breed requires more watchfullness, not less.

 

In a perfect world I'm sure we'd all love to work our dogs, but sadly that world only exists for a lucky few. I'm not going to say live and let live because it's obvious here that many of you cannot.>>

 

This is one of my favorite excuses on why people breed dogs that have not been properly proven out. "It's too hard to work dogs", "Its too expensive", "I don't know anyone with sheep"...blah blah blah. If I can manage to find a way to work dogs in the agricultural wasteland of Las Vegas- I can't really see that anyone can use that excuse to not do what is right by the breed. If you cannot do this, don't breed. God will make more dogs without every other person putting out a poor quality litter.

 

But perhaps this board could be put to better use by searching out new working lines that you all do like, instead of trashing the show dogs lines you don't like. >>

 

I agree with others that say this is an important conversation to have. It keeps the discussion alive and introduces newcomers to a concept that is sadly lacking in other breeds. That concept is maintaining a breed in its original function and continuing to improve that function. We have a unique quality in our breed that is critical to its preservation and improvement. Who wants to have an "ordinary" AKC/KC breed when you can have an exceptional breed that is like no other?

 

Then Maria (Kyrasmom) said...

"although her face doesn't have that blank, vacant look"

 

And it was going so well....why not stick to critiquing/abhoring the breeders and breeding practices of those who select for looks only instead of critiquing and or attacking any dog based on looks alone. >>

 

I wasn't attacking any individual dog, nor was I attacking your dogs- who I have not seen.

 

There's nothing vacant or blank about any of my dogs, even my airhead is more intense then most dogs.>>

 

I am not talking about intensity here- I'm talking about character. I don't know if your dogs have it or not- but I have the feeling a show ring won't bring it out.

[Guest tamarsh]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

[QB] Dita, since your post had some content to it (unlike Kirsten's, which was pure insults devoid of substance), I will leave it up and reply to it. Next time you put up a post containing personal insults, however, I will remove it and you from the Boards.

 

 

And I will lose sleep over that because ??????????????

 

Do it now Eileen I've seen and heard more that enough.

[AK dog doc]

Dita, all dogs do NOT have the instinct to herd. I'm sorry if that fact offends you, but it IS a fact, and you repeating that it is not so doesn't change anything.

 

An example: Curious to find out if my bc/whippet had any instinct, I went to a herding instinct test run by a local all-breed herding club. While there, I saw 5 GSDs worked - remember, originally a herding breed. Of those five, one had some ability - she showed interest, and had enough on the ball to try to circle and drive, and moreover, was interacting with the handler and trying to take cues (though this was her first exposure so she didn't know the cues yet). One seemed to have a vague glimmer that maybe he should follow those sheep around. Two barely even glanced at the sheep and only paid attention to them when the handler drove the sheep toward them, at which time they moved out of the way of the sheep and continued their efforts to find and eat sheep manure. One jumped out of the pen in terror and ran away.

 

Two Icelandic shepherds were tested. Both of them wandered happily around in the sun, barking randomly and smiling with delight - charming, handsome dogs and quite adorable, but in no way herding - and really showing as much interest in the abundant dragonflies and the distant spectators as the sheep. Those dogs were just happy and liked everything, and hey, those sheep are just fine with THEM - but they were in no way herding.

 

Of the Aussies tested, about half wanted to herd (this does not denote good ability per se, since of those interested only 2/3 showed talent); the others were either bewildered as to why they were there, or intimidated by the sheep. [i will point out here that of the ones who wanted to work, a majority came from a local breeder who does like to work her dogs, breeds from her best workers, and is involved in the herding club - so that may skew the results.] Of the ACDs tested, about three quarters were interested. The others either shut down (one of those might have given it a go but for the owner, who was pressuring the dog too much, so he shut down, laid down and refused to move until the owner leashed him and took him out of the pen), or tried to get away from the sheep.

 

This is just a single example of a single instinct test - and while we all agree that an instinct test is a poor yardstick by which to measure the working ability of a dog, it is obvious that some dogs can't even achieve THAT miniscule mark of achievement or ability, let alone anything more challenging, such as actual WORK.

 

In addition, let me point out that HERDING and CHASING are NOT THE SAME THING. So if by saying "all dogs have the instinct to herd" you mean "all dogs will chase something that's moving" then I have two objections: One, NOT all dogs will chase things that move, as illustrated above. Two, CHASING IS NOT HERDING. Prey drive certainly does play into the herding ability - but it is not in any way the SAME as herding ability. My cat has prey drive. That doesn't mean she's out there herding mice. (Note: If you DO understand that chasing and herding are not the same and that herding is leagues beyond chasing or following moving animals, then the fact that some dogs won't even chase/follow would seem to much further undermine your contention that "all dogs retain the instinct to herd".)

 

I don't know why you persist in saying that we can't see past the ends of our noses when it is not US who can't see the difference between chasing and herding, it is not US who contends that the only good BC is a BC working stock, it is not US who can't seem to get it that we are thrilled to death that BCs who lack either the opportunity or the talent/instinct/drive to work stock have good, active, loving homes where they are given other things to do, such as SAR, therapy, assistance, obedience, sports, or just plain family companionship. I further do not understand how it is that you don't see (no matter how often we repeat it) that our objection is to BCs being bred for anything other than stock-working ability, not to BCs being in non-working homes or used for things other than work. If you cannot see that, then either you are too emotionally invested in your stance that we're all too "evil" to see the truth, or it is perhaps you who cannot see past the end of your nose.

 

Eileen, if I'm being too harsh let me know and I'll retract or edit.

[Carson Crazies]

"Basic Dog Instinct" isn't good enough. Even basic "herding instinct" just isn't good enough. The ability to control livestock is FAR more than that. Sure all of my dogs have SOME level of prey drive, or even the desire to chase. That is not the same thing as livestock working.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

If "that basic dog instinct" is all that matters, then is it just coincidence that your farmers and shepherds choose to train and use border collies? I guess they'd be just as well off with Airedales, Malemutes, Basenjis -- any other breed or mix -- since all of them have "that basic dog instinct"? How strange that they don't seem to understand that. You'd think just by the law of averages SOME shepherd would be out there with an Akita. Maybe you should tell them.

 

>

 

I never said you'd lose sleep over it, and I have no reason to think you will. But you seem to keep wanting to post here (albeit insisting in most of your posts that you don't, this will be your last, etc.), so I thought I should give you fair warning of the consequences of posting further insults.

 

>

 

Okay. You have been removed at your request.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Oh Maria, why can't you just stick to praising your dogs without denigrating comments about "most people" that can only make them feel bad?

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

<< my airhead is more intense then most dogs and probably smarter than most people. >>

 

Oh Maria, why can't you just stick to praising your dogs without denigrating comments about "most people" that can only make them feel bad?

Maybe because I'm not half as smart or generous as my dogs. Why can't a conversation be about the ethics of breeding without attacking the "look" of a dog.

 

You always talk about walking the walk instead of talking the talk, and yet these topics never fail to include generalizations such as "vacant - blank - disgusting - bug-eyed - stupid - etc etc.

 

Just because a show dog may or may not herd (and I'll throw my hat in with those who say that it probably won't herd to any great capacity) does not mean that it lacks character or intensity. And even if it does...can you really judge that from a photo? Most likely a profile at that.

 

I'm not the one being hurtful to "most people" here.

 

Maria

 

and just to avoid any confusion, my dogs have never seen, nor will ever see, the inside of a show ring

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Well, my comment was meant to be jocular, and I don't want to take away from that, but I guess the answer to this question is "Because in a conversation other people get to express THEIR views and feelings -- you don't get to dictate what they think or what they say." If you did, it wouldn't be much of a conversation.

[Jodi]

Maria -

 

Just out of curiosity, are you saying that the only difference between a working bred dog and a show bred dog is whether or not they work?

 

Jodi

[Sue R]

Sorry to have missed keeping up on this thread today - there have been some wonderful posts that clearly and intelligently point out why Border Collies should be bred for "the work".

 

I couldn't check on this thread as my two and I have been working cattle all day - gathering the herd of cows, heifers, calves, and the bull and bringing them from a neighboring pasture; pushing through a new pasture to the barnyard and into the barn, into the crowding pen (cows, calves, bull), into the chute (the calves); and then gathering them all up again from two different fields and moving them back to the original pasture.

 

I'd sure hate to have had to try all this with just any two dogs with "basic dog instinct" that haven't lost their "ability that all dogs have to herd" (to paraphrase because I'm too tired to cut and paste and quote).

 

Thank goodness, also, that some years ago when a cow tried to kill my husband that our farm/working-bred old dog Rocket had the stock sense it took to save his life by driving off that angry mother cow.

 

Maybe I just need to buy a few of those good-looking conformation/show-bred dogs that "can do it all" and rely on them to work the stock instead of these working-bred dogs that don't even "look good" doing it (although I think a dog that's working well is beautiful no matter what it "looks" like).

 

And, when they aren't working, my dogs can play fetch, frisbee, do agility and obedience (just for fun), jump in the tank, whatever - well, my goodness, they DO do it all except "look pretty". And they look beautiful to me...

[PennyT]

Let's see if these are the main problems in terms of a dictionary of

disagreement. Four is the most important, I think.

 

1) We (used loosely) point out that what people do with their dogs is not an

issue. Have fun.

Within humane constraints, do what you will...just don't breed on any other

basis than working ability so long as health issues are a given.

 

Cathy and friends (used loosely) want to breed border collies for other

qualities

regardless of working ability and talent or with working ability and talent

as a background consideration only.

 

2) Cathy and friends (again used loosely) like to pose this as

simply having or using the dogs for purposes other than working livestock.

 

We (again used loosely) have no quarrel with doggy activities. It's breeding

for those activities outside of livestock work that we take issue with.

 

3) We (again used loosely) think that breeding for qualities other than

livestock working will have a deleterious effect on border collies'

livestock working skills and abilities over time.

 

Cathy and friends (again used loosely) think that all dogs or maybe all

border collies have livestock working ability and therefore these skills and

abilities cannot be lost over time. For example, breeding for a better front in

terms of a defined appearance standard front

will improve the breed as a whole; ignoring livestock skills and abilities

does not matter because unlike better fronts in terms of a kennel club

standard front those livestock working qualities cannot be lost an dneed not be bred for.

 

4) Cathy and friends want to breed border collies without

proving them because Cathy and her friends do not all have the resources to work their dogs on livestock.

 

We say if you can't work your untrained on livestock border collies on livestock enough to get the dogs trained up, then don't breed them. Have fun...just don't breed them. If you don't have the resources to arrange your life so that your border collies can work livestock, you don't have the resources to breed those border collies.

[Bill Fosher]

Hello all,

 

What an odd thread. It's hard to believe that this ground needs to be plowed again.

 

Bo Beep said there aren't enough farmers and ranchers who use dogs to make a difference anymore. I think that's incorrect. We do it with a lot less fuss and bother than most sports participants, and I am unusual in the fact that I have a penchant for expressing my opinions fairly bluntly and openly. I don't assume -- as many farmers do -- that there will always be good working dogs to choose from. I see too much evidence to the contrary, and I even see some important facets of working ability slipping away within working lines. And I talk about them. And write about them on Internet forums and mailing lists from time to time.

 

I use dogs to manage sheep, which are a substantial part of my living. Not full time at the moment, but they have been in the past, and probably will be again in the future. Without good dogs, much of what I do would be impossible, or at least impractical or economically unrealistic. So this isn't an armchair interest for me -- I'm not sipping white wine and eating brie on imported crackers and waxing poetic about saving a noble breed for posterity. I want to get my work done and get to bed at a reasonable hour. I plan to be at this at least another 30-odd years, which means I will probably select, train, work with, love, and bury at least 10 more border collies before I quit.

 

I have seen what happens when Border collies are bred for obedience competition, agility, and flyball. After about two generations, they no longer are producing offspring that would be useful to me. I can't say that I've studied show-bred dogs, but I don't see any reason to believe that they would be any different. If you take selection pressure off herding ability (as opposed to instinct, or any of the components of ability such as eye, intensity, etc. -- I'm talking about the whole package) it goes away very quickly.

 

I couldn't care less if a dog passes a herding instinct test, or crouches stylishly and eyes his frisbee. What I need is a dog that wants nothing more than to bound up the side of a capped landfill, parts of which are steep enough that you can lean out and touch the ground in front of you, through grass that is well over his head, gather up a couple hundred western range ewes fresh off the truck, and put them into an electronet enclosure.

 

Then climb into my truck and ride off to the next field, where we are tending to ewes with lambs, and help me catch the three-week old lamb that has developed a joint infection so that we can complete his course of antibiotics.

 

If that same dog can compete in a few trials a year and not make a fool of himself, that's okay with me too. If he brings a smile to my face with playful nonsense every now and then, that's good too. But I'd give up either of these qualities if it meant getting a dog that could get the work done with a minimum of stress on the stock and shepherd.

 

No one is going to convince me that you're going to be able to produce that kind of dog based on his parents' ability to walk over teeter-totters. The only way to produce that kind of dog is to breed parents who do that kind of work -- who read sheep and situations, respond to commands at a distance, have excellent stamina, and hearts as big as all outdoors.

 

There is no other way. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know biscuits from shinola. Or -- and I would say this is probably more likely -- is betting that the people who buy puppies from them don't.

 

Note the fact that I have never said you shouldn't take part in agility, flyball, competitive obedience, freestyle dance, dock diving, search and rescue, tracking, canine stargazing, or whatever activity strikes your fancy and that your dog enjoys or at least will tolerate.

 

Just don't tell me that you can breed based on performance in those activities and expect to maintain -- let alone improve -- the breed as a livestock working breed. And don't expect me to sit idly by while you change the gene pool.

[muddy bob]

I have stock handled for some AKC trials. The conformation BCs were in no way like my BCs in terms of presence, ability or appearance. If one of those dogs were required to do a REAL outrun he'd probably pass out! Just so you know, I am always on my best behaviour at these events but I seem to be eyed with suspicion by some of the competitors. At one of these events we had a visitor from Oz who just happened to be a breeder of conformation BCs. She apparantly felt the need to make a comment on one of my dog's looks. Not too bad-just said he was a bit weedy. This surprised me because otherwise she seemed an awfully nice lady. I just acted pleasantly in return. But in a while she admitted to me that she'd recently been bitten by the bug to work stock with her dogs and since then saw the need for my type of dog.

What she ended up doing is anyone's guess and I'm not about to say who she was. But my point is if someone never works stock (I mean really works stock and not just plays with the sheep) and never gets bitten by the bug, we can repeat all this 'til we are blue in the face and most will never get it. Because they don't WANT to get it. But I guess it never hurts to try.

 

Muddy

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Jodi:

Maria -

 

Just out of curiosity, are you saying that the only difference between a working bred dog and a show bred dog is whether or not they work?

 

Jodi

Not at all. I just said that being show bred does not necessarily warrant the "blank vacant" discriptives even if the dog does not work (herd) to any level. Any level at all.

 

Maria

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

<< Why can't a conversation be about the ethics of breeding without attacking the "look" of a dog. >>

 

Well, my comment was meant to be jocular, and I don't want to take away from that, but I guess the answer to this question is "Because in a conversation other people get to express THEIR views and feelings -- you don't get to dictate what they think or what they say." If you did, it wouldn't be much of a conversation.

And in keeping with the levity, it's a darn good thing that other people get to express their views or else I'd have to be muzzled. Sorry for misinterpreting even if it still irks me to have dogs "attacked" when it's the owners/breeders who are fair game.

 

Maria

[northborderrookie]

Hi everyone I have been reading these boards for a while but I?ll admit I am mostly a reader / lurker. I have some questions regarding this thread.

 

The boards promote and advocate the breeding of Border collies based solely on their capabilities / ability to work but I can not for the life of me find anywhere outside of personal preference a definition of what level of work is acceptable when considering breeding a dog or bitch. If any one can point me to something in a club that registers that has any perimeters to follow i.e. a minimum requirement based on when dog and shepherds were plentiful and it was the only thing that border collies did I would appreciate it. I personally would find it helpful as things are not as they were when BC?s were breed in that area for the work. I know that when breeding it is a combination of what the dam and sire will bring to the mix and the hopeful outcome of what the pups will be as they mature better then their parents. a combination of the only the best qualities of their parents. To better the breed, able to achieve higher then the parents did.

 

Bill I?m sorry that the ground needs to be plowed again, I know that for those who have chosen their path to walk that others would consider another path and question the path you have chosen can be frustrating to say the least. but there are other people like myself who have questions. Fields are plowed every year for the next harvest based on what is needed at the time, what is best for the field, to keep it healthy and producing etc. The Farmer does it with out even thinking it is a part of their lives they have chosen their path for that time. Then there are those of us who ask why? Why did you choose to plant this and at this time and after planting this the year before? Those of us who need definition for various reasons to learn why and consider the reasons. In the case of BC?s it could be the number of dogs we see in rescue, heath problems, temperament problems etc that in some area?s are abundant (and yes likely not from reputable breeders) but it is what we see so we ask the questions.

 

Bill you make a very good point in my mind regarding what you have seen in BC?s breed for obedience, agility and flyball. I must ask the question if you could stop the breeders breeding ONLY for looks are these ?performance breeders? the next threat, and if yes why are they not a threat now?

 

I agree with you if I could get my 4 year old to work sheep like he works a tennis ball he? d be an even more amazing dog then I already think he is! Ps I don?t have sheep not till hopefully this fall anyway

 

Right now in my mind registries are registry they register dogs based on pedigree?s that are submitted to them. I hold no bones against any of them.

 

 

Can anyone tell me why the ABCA will sponsor funds (I think it was prize money for trials?) Do they host /hold/sanction herding events? If not why?

 

It seems that many more dogs are ABCA registered each year then AKC registered. I looked at the ABCA site and to get your dog (if eligible) an ROM there is a fair list of ability to be shown (to me the newbie anyway). Is there any criteria like this required for registering any dogs or pups? If the mandate is a ?working dog? why would you not have a criteria for registration based on what you want to promote? (I think it is because they are just a registry

Is there any working stock dog clubs that require proven workability other then a pedigree as criteria for registry?

 

Any who these are just some questions on this thread. I was leery of posting at all but I needed to ask my questions.

 

 

Thanks for reading

 

Kara & the BC brats in Canada.

[Bill Fosher]

Kara,

 

Working ability is a little too complex to be defined in writing. It's usually readily apparent, even when a dog is being handled poorly. That's one of the reasons why the ABCA ROM program requires knowledgable people (directors) to see the dog working either in person on on video.

 

As far as I know, there is no registry in the US that has a working test for Border collies. I think that perhaps the North American Stock Dog Association used to have one, but it is either defunct or moribund at this point.

 

You asked: "if you could stop the breeders breeding ONLY for looks are these ?performance breeders? the next threat, and if yes why are they not a threat now?"

 

I actually think that people who are breeding Border collies for sports are perhaps a bigger threat to the breed than the strict conformation breeders. They are much more likely to make the claim that their dogs retain working instinct. Conformation people have a standard that they are breeding to, and it has nothing to do with working ability.

[kelpiegirl]

All very interesting cud to chew I agree with points just about everyone has made. I do believe there is much waxing poetic by those who have BC's, regarding their working ability- when utilized in the trial arena, and to a lesser extent the farmers themselves. 99% of the farmers I know have never used dogs to help them with the farm. Seems a shame, but I know LOTS of farmers. My own grandparents who had a LOT of stock raised Aussie Sheps in the 70's, but they were never used to work the stock. I don't see the numbers of farms increasing. I see the number of folks trialing increasing (and the subsequent purchasing of sheep for that purpose- like I did).

There are lots of references to the working ability of BC's being in mortal danger, but I have yet to hear one real life example of lines being degraded- probably because if a dog washes up as a working dog, it goes on to be someone's beloved pet, or sports dog. There is a lot of culling going on (and by culling I mean weeding out- not necessarily killing). I suspect this has gone on for time immemorial. If a dog ain't gonna do the work you need, you get another- it is how agriculture is. I give a whole lot more credit to the working breeders out there, than to believe the working ability will slip away to oblivion. Again, if there are some real examples of lines being degraded, and this is documented, I will re-asess my stance. All of the henny pennyism isn't getting anything accomplished. It just further polarizes each camp. Those of you who breed working dogs keep up the good work, and remember to keep your friends close and your enemies closer

Julie