So sad,,,,

[Katelynn & Gang]

Originally posted by Little Bo Boop:

Hell in Betty's perfect world, my dog would have a perfect outrun in both directions, and I'd be able to teach her to get sheep of the fence in an orderly manner in about 5 min.

I thought these were traits the Border Collie is bred for???

 

Katelynn

[Little Bo Boop]

Has the price of trained dogs increased?

If so, why?

Perhaps due to supply and demand?

 

In my opinion it's not so much supply and demand as more people, with disposable income are getting into the sport. It has been suggested that a lot of horse people, cutting horse people for instance, who are used to dropping wads of cash on a horse, are getting into dogs, $ 10,000 for a trained dog is a pitance compared to the prices of a top cutting horse. JMHO

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Little Bo Boop:

In my opinion it's not so much supply and demand as more people, with disposable income are getting into the sport. It has been suggested that a lot of horse people, cutting horse people for instance, who are used to dropping wads of cash on a horse, are getting into dogs, $ 10,000 for a trained dog is a pitance compared to the prices of a top cutting horse. JMHO

Sounds like demand driven economics to me; but then it's been a few years since my college econ class.

 

Mark

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I can't answer yes or no. I don't know the answer. I didn't claim there was a shortage now -- I explained why whether or not there's a shortage now is not the issue. You're the one who made the claim that there are "fewer ranches and farms that actually utilize dogs," so I asked what you meant and whether you had any solid data to support whatever you meant. You didn't answer.

 

>

 

Are you really saying that the fact that there were more entries than slots available at the Bluegrass is evidence that there is no shortage of working dogs in this country? I can't see where an excess of entries at one trial (or many trials, for that matter) proves anything one way or another on the (irrelevant) question of whether there is a shortage of working dogs in this country.

 

>

 

No, I don't. I'd be delighted if you had a crystal ball. Then we could all know what's going to happen if this or if that. The fact is that no one has a crystal ball.

 

>

 

It's because what you said did carry that message that you felt the need to tack on the disclaimer. But there's no need to wrangle over it -- the words are there to be read, and anyone can read them and judge for themselves whether they carried that message or if I "twisted" them.

 

>

 

Not exactly, but close enough. I'm working toward improvement even though I know perfect is unattainable, just as you are working on improving your dog's outrun and her ability to get sheep off the fence in an orderly manner, even though perfect is unattainable.

 

It's human nature to do a lot of things that cause harm. I guess it's also human nature to try to prevent the harm, and work to change the misinformation and attitudes that lead to the harm. I have no problem with your efforts as you describe them. I'm sorry you have a problem with mine, but I don't see much point in prolonging a discussion about them. Consider me duly counseled, and accept the things you cannot change.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I've been reading this and can only look at it in my own context so here goes.

 

Dals Dad is beautiful he is a mix of real working lines and show pretend working lines. Bonnie admits he rarely helps on the farm because he is too pretty to get dirty. (her kids make fun of Casey)He's a good pet.

 

When Bonnie saw Dals mom She openly said she cried Dals mom is a real working dog. Most people dont even think she is a bc. She recently saved Bonnies life when a bull tired to crush her.

 

Frodo is from show lines People flock to pet him ask about him. Admittedly he is georgous but, he bites he has severe seperation anxiety and mom is now looking for a real working dog because he will never put in a hard days work in this lifetime.

 

I think the point of this board is to make the BC a better dog no matter what they look like. Breeding for looks lead to temperment problems and lets be honest if someone said to me who would you like to back you up today with herding animals I'd take jingles she is an all around good dog. She can get the job done and a pleasure to be around at the end of the day.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I forgot to add that penny has been disowned by a certain show pretend to be working breeder due to the scandal that surrounds her life. I wonder if she makes an honest showing in herding if the person will want to claim her then?

[Dixie_Girl]

I am new to BCs. I am new to the fight to keep them pure. I have never worked nor owned a sheep ranch. That said, I can still see where this is all going. Too many years ago for me to remember, I read that the poodle was first bred to RETRIEVE water fowl. Because I have an insatiable interest in knowledge, I found that the poodle stopped being used in hunting when AKC got hold of it, and people made it a fashion statement. Rich old women would, at one time, use a temporary dye on them to match their outfits! We are talking about a dog that at one time went into mucky water to retrieve a duck! I have asked this before. Can anyone, anywhere, at anytime, name ONE breed the AKC IMPROVED? Meaning, once the AKC accepted it, it was made better in its intended use? Why does anyone, for what ever reasons they have, think it will be different for the BC?

The bottom line is, if you breed two dogs that they themselves, not some distant grand, great, or great great sire, have not proven their stock savy, how are you going to promote, protect, the BCs original purpose? If the people of long ago, bred dogs that were not provent to do what was needed with stock, do you really think we would have the BC we have now? I will agree that there are not enough ranches in the world for the BCs that there are. But, it is my belief that that is the purpose of trialing. If I can send my dog out and he does a good outrun, and he brings the sheep to me, then I make him take the sheep a certain place(read through panels) and then I make him bring them back, and then I need to shed, and he helps by taking direction from me, then I have him get the sheep in a pen. Why would that same dog, if sent on my ranch, go get the sheep and bring them to me? And then if I needed to get them to another part of the pasture, not do it, and then if there were 5 sheep I needed to medicate, not help me seperate them? And then help me get them into a small pen so I could medicate them? What I am saying is that, doing trials can convert over to ranching and vice versa but mainly it will show stock savy. Because, just like in ranching, at trials the stock are not always predictable. And the dog has to think on his own. He has to adjust in split seconds to accomidate prozac needing sheep. Or stubborn old cusses. You won't find these things in agility, fly ball, conformation, obedience, SAR, therapy, or frizbee. But, when a pup hits the ground that was bred from dogs who could do these things, and do them well, but has not the whatever to work stock, it will still have the ability to do the other above tasks. Because of the way it was bred. To breed for anything else will never inhance the working ability of the dog. Genetics is a tricky thing. And there are always possibilities of "throwbacks". But why take chances? If you are breeding for show, I assure you, you will get beautiful dogs. But all the other things will be lost. And if a person cannot or will not see this, I really don't know what to say to them. It does not mean that just because a dog "looks" pretty, it can't herd. Does not mean just cuz a dog is butt ugly it can herd. It means what you put in is what you get out.

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

One thing Linda kinda touched on, that I don't think can be stressed enough....

 

It's not just about preserving and maintaining the breed, it's about improving the breed !!!

 

...and so I ask, how can anyone say they are going to improve, let alone maintain the Border Collie if they breed for anything other than the working traits that define the breed?

 

In Carl's mechanical engineering trained, OCD perfect world, they cannot.

[jaggdmtngrl]

Wow! What a debate. I am really just ashamed that I am hearing such nastiness from the Scottish lot. My own people, so to speak; as I am half Scottish. When I was in Scotland I had nothing but wonderful people to talk to who accepted me as a "rough and tumble American with a harsh accent" when they knew not a whit about me. They accepted me for what I was and had a very true "live and let live" attitude, gently reminding me that we had differences in a very polite, and NON-insulting manner instead of ripping me to shreds like I have seen in this posting. This is the people of Scotland that I have been exposed to and sing praises about when friends of mine want to go over the waters for the first time. Keep that in mind.

 

On another note, I have to admit that some trials here in the States HAVE been crappy. That is usually due to the inexperience or difference of opinion and infighting of the hosts and the people they hired to "help" them run the show, those helpers who have had experience in putting on events such as that, and then shutting out their suggestions and ideas, the end result being that they work themselves into a tither and then the TRIAL JUDGE winds up running the show for the absentee hosts! My statement to that is, "why did you ask for their help in the first place?"

 

As far as the difference between AKC and Brittish show dogs, there IS a difference because here in the United States we believe in the almighty dollar and the more dogs that can be considered "desireable" to the general public are going to be the ones making the most sales and so will be the ones to win first place in AKC confirmation shows no matter how deranged they start looking. I know from personal experience that a confirmation dog with champion lines CAN NOT always herd well as their hips are too tight and they can barely get an outrun (they hop like bunnies)and will most likely never get past an arena trial, but they do have the instinct and probably would LOVE to be able to "go back to their roots".

 

I would hope that everyone appreciates and understands that the more exposure we have of our "working" or "show" dogs, the more "inexperienced" people, without proper education by those of us in the either industry, are going to wind up snatching up good dogs and ruining them instead of being true to the breed. Let's discuss all the show BC's and working BC's that are in shelters right now because of our irresponsibility as a whole to properly educate people about owning Border Collies. Although, I will admit that I see the top trialers are doing a great job of it lately.

 

We are all to blame here for bad behaviour. WE ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT OUR DOGS! I know (with much relief) that there are more "working and trialing" Border Collies out there then there are confirmation Boder Collies, so let's be thankful of that and continue to breed our dogs for their working abilities, those of us in this "herding" message board and hope that one day we will prevail as the guardians of the "true working Border Collie" and just keep in mind that if the confirmation people continue to breed such radically looking dogs such as in the first picture posted, it will eventually not be a Border Collie at all, they will have to create it as a new breed.

 

Lenaya Robertson, FSA Scot

Fellow Society of Antiquaries, Scotland

Clan Donnachaidh Society, Inc.

Intermountain Stockdog Association

Meridian, ID

[muddy bob]

And at the end of the day, wow, no change. Anyone surprised?

muddy

[juliepoudrier]

Wow Muddy,

Just so people don't think you posted a non sequitur, I think Eileen must have deleted Kristy's post in response to Lenaya's, but you're right, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read it.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Hey I forgot to ask if Penny and I get to trial next year can I put disowned on her parents spot since putting their name will denote the breeder.

[Joe Anne]

Let me ask a question? Excuse my "lay", terminology however. A breeder has a sheep farm. He breeds his 2 working dogs, who both have impressive and proven genetics for herding for generations. Although his own dogs are active working dogs, he sells the puppies to people that will not be working their dog/s. The perspective new family plans on having the dog for a loving pet. No questions are asked as to whether the sold pup is going to be spayed or neutered, or bred. The breeder does ask however if the person knows or has ever had BC's. He appears concerned that the new family knows about Border Collies and strongly suggests alot of patience and disciplined training of some sort.

After all this the sale takes place.

Is it wrong for a breeder who has dogs that have not only proven themselves as excellent working dogs, but most definately have strong herding genetics to sell a dog for a pet only? or should he sell only to those who plan on working the dog and/or continuing the line?

What also is the opinion of some of ya'll about that very pet being trained for herding without the likely chance of being able to work sheep on a daily basis, but only now and then at training sessions and trials? Nothing too serious, but just for allowing the dog to do "his thing", so to speak, as well as all the knowledge of not only herding but BC's in general to be gained.

Yes I am talking about my BC boy Phoenix. Although I would love to have a small farm, with sheep, I don't see that happening any time soon, short of a miracal turn around by my hubby. Phoenix starts his serious training this weekend. I am excited for him even more so than myself, but I am excited to learn, learn, learn. Phoenix is only my 2nd BC. Wolf, my first lived to be 11, and I never got him involved in herding training, or anything besides obedience training (at which he excelled, of course!) and I wish I had. My daughter got a pup from the same breeder, same litter as my Phoenix and she too is a family pet. Both Phoenix and Amica are neutered and spayed, but after reading some of this I wonder if the thought is.... these dogs should have gone to a working farm, or to someone who would have bred them "properly"??

My daughter and I often sit and discuss that very topic. Did we do them wrong? I don't think so, seeing & knowing, that the breeder would have sold to whomever else???, and who knows what there lives would have been like. They don't work sheep, but we have both spent a great deal of time, effort and patience on training these dogs to be well behaved family pets, exercise them often and hard, expect and get alot from them... and like I said, Phoenix is starting with herding training now, Amica maybe later. Both dogs are loving, smart, energetic, awesomely incredible family members and I/we would not change a thing (cept buy a farm for them!). We've even discussed going in together to buy a farm, so they could work together!! LOL

I do spend a great deal of time talking to people about BC's, touting the BC as a working dog (does that make me a hypocrit since mine is a pet?), and that this dog is NOT for everyone, and I deplore the AKC for messing with our BC's, and movies and commercials for making the BC look so cutesy that everyone wants one, and so on and so on!!!

I most definately consider myself a knowledgeable BC, snob. I love all my critters, with all my heart and soul, but I can say for sure, Phoenix will not be my last BC! I adore this dog and Border Collies in general!

[Dixie_Girl]

It doesn't really matter what the pups do after they hit the ground, it's what was done to get them there in the first place. If the parents were good workers and showed all the traits a good BC should have, the breeding was fine. What happens to the dogs after, well, that's really up to the people who have them. However, for you to breed a result of that litter without proving the dog would be wrong. Regardless of how good its parents were.

[PennyT]

Of course, it is not wrong. Reread the thread. You don't have to work your dog either. Relax.

[Joe Anne]

Dixie Girl...In reference to breeding, I absolutely agree, and that is why both our pups were, "fixed", not to mention there are enough unwanted/homeless dogs in our world, I don't want to add to that at all. Oh by the way, (LOL, after reading your post where you said your dog was the "cleanest one there", L O L!)toooo funny, I cracked up, because I was thinking of giving Phoenix a bath for his debut this weekend, cause he has gotten pretty muddy & his "feathers" are a bit matty, playing in the yard lately! hmmmm, guess I won't now, thanks for the heads up!!! LOL!!!

Penny.... In my heart I know having gotten Phoenix and Amica was not wrong. I was just sorta throwing out the thought of the breeder selling to "pet people, instead of working dogs".

I also am doing this training with Phoenix, for both of us. Watching a Border Collie, work sheep, is amazingingly wonderful to me. To watch the entire process of intelligence, grace, quickness, agility, thought processing and the dog working as one with the "shepherd/handler", is something that has to be seen, it can't really be described!!!

Hey who knows, Phoenix just might not be interested at all, in which case I will just say oh well!!! We are approaching this with an attitude of fun, exercise and learning and we will simply take it from there and see what happens.

[J.E.S]

I am the breeder, handler and trainer of the only BC in the UK to become a full Champion having passed the ISDS working test so I do know what I'm on about and i've competed at Open Sheepdog trials here in Scotland. not stupid crappy trials like you have in the States, i've spoken to lots of people, friends, who've run clinics and judged trials over in the U.S. and they've said they've never seen such a load of rubbish dogs and handlers in a lot of cases. sheep 'worrying' and harassing' in lots of cases.

I know this has been beaten like a dead horse, but I have been mulling this over for a couple days now and I still feel the need to have my say.

LochielUK in a later post says...

 

only came on to this group because I'd been told one of my dogs was being ridiculed. I came on 'all guns blazing' because i was angry and said some things that I would not normally say. I'm a friendly, tolerant person, who likes to treat people as I would like to be treated myself. I thought this came over in the second post I wrote, I'm not out to be antagonistic. I didn't know anything about this group, when I posted the first mail. But I am from a farming family, been around working collies all my days, my uncle was a well known Scottish handler now deceased and he taught me all I know about training dogs. Alistair MacRae I know and he comes from the same area as me, I know john Hastie well, I know Julie whom you will know as Simpson, I've used Johnny Wilson's dogs, used Wisp, but I've never proclaimed to be a top handler. I didn't lie when I talked of being told what trials were like in the States, but I'm sure really that is just a small percentage.

I am offended. I agree, the derogatory remarks about the show Border Collies portrayed on this thread were not in good taste. I would probably be hurt and upset if a picture of my dog, or a link to my website, posted on a message board was used to degrade my dogs in any way, but...

to come back with such an attack on US trials/dogs/handlers as a whole is definitely NOT the way to get your point across. To say that UK handlers that come here to judge trials and teach at clinics praise our dogs to our faces then go back home and trash them really bothers me. I have taken a few clinics and also helped out at trials where the clinician/judges were from the UK. I now will always wonder if they truly liked my dog/s or were they just placating me? I believe you have driven a wedge in where there was trust and respect. Words are powerful and should be used only after calming down and thinking without undo emotion. You try to retract some of what you said in your earlier posts and you even offer up a resume of sorts touting names like Alasdair MacRae (who has lived in America for a number of years and trials here and must not think our trials too crappy). But things said in anger are usually what the person really thinks. I do think you feel you have some exclusive entitlement of the knowledge of Border Collies due to the area you live in on this planet. Granted the breed was originated in the UK, but that does not preclude others from acquiring, using and possibly even improving on it.

My opinion on conformation Border Collies (I am only speaking for the American conformation Border Collies) having working ability is this. Based on my experience of training novice dogs at an all breed facility and working at a ranch where conformation Border Collies, and AKC trials were the majority, the conformation bred Border Collies were nothing like the working bred ones. If they had any instinct or drive to herd they were still missing other parts which are necessary to a good working dog. I saw lots of them complete titles in AKC courses (having worked set out and exhaust at a number of them) yet when asked to do simple work could not do it. Most if they would work at all had no work ethic and only worked till they wanted to quit. Out of the many many conformation Border Collies I watched and/or helped train none would ever have been able to compete at the open level. This is not to say that a conformation Border Collie could not compete and possibly win in an open class, but as I see it, it would definitely be the exception not the rule.

[Guest tamarsh]

Well I did say I was never coming back on this forum and I won't be again. But I will have my final say as it won't be too long before super Eileen gets her knickers in a twist again and deletes my post.

 

Thankyou Kirst, for sticking up for my girl although with some of these people you are wasting your time. Well done on getting blocked from posting on here, you must have pricked a consience. Way to go girl.

 

Most of you fail to see whats past the end of your own noses, so the bigger picture in life is beyond your comprehension.

 

Yes the Border Collie is the worlds finest herding breed. No arguments there, however there are hundreds of breeds out there who never get to do what they were bred to do. Yet they all have their own beauty and character. Are we not allowed to appreciate that. Where in world is there a law that states you may not own a dog if you cannot do what it was originally bred for. There would be few dogs left in the world if that were the case.

As all dogs will herd, the basic instinct cannot be lost.Which is why I think the basic herding certificates for show dogs are not really worth the paper their printed on.

 

Yes some lines are always going to be better at it and if you continue to breed from the workaholic lines you stand a better chance of getting the workaholic dogs you desire. However not everyone wants that and if you love the looks of a Border Collie but just want an active fun dog they so be it.

 

As for my photo's you stole, well you really didn't achieve anything except causing more hurt to us after just losing our other oldie. If that made some of you feel good, then I only have sympathy for you. Sad does not describe it. But remember what goes around comes around. God does not pay his debts with money.

 

Be thankful for the fact your dogs do not know how evil you are.

[Arnpriors]

My point is, we have dogs bred just like those overseas. There's no such thing as an American Border collie. They are just Border collies, with the same standard for excellence as their close relations overseas. [/QB]

 

I don't think anyone over here, has ever said the was more than one type of Border Collie. But then, we don't have the same type of dog in the ring, as there appears to be in the US. Certainly not as exagerated as some that I've seen.

 

There will always be extremes. This doesn't make it correct, but then they're best left with the people who want them.

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Dita,

 

Your correct, with my rather large nose, I may sometimes have trouble seeing past it and comprehending the bigger picture in life. I don't think it's just my nose, though, as on this issue, I believe my morals also get in the way.

 

You see, I think you still miss the point. Noone is saying you can't appreciate the beauty of the Border Collie. Noone is saying you cannot/should not have a Border Collie as a pet.

 

The constant and underlying theme is that the Border Collie should not be BRED for anything other than the working trait. If it is, those traits would get watered down, and eventually the dog you have come to appreciate will disappear. The dog you have come to appreciate is that dog because of what it was bred to be and breeding for anything else would ultimately destroy those characteristics you have come to appreciate. This is where my morals come in. As a big fan of the breed, and Border Collie pet owner myself, I would never take part in the systematic destruction of what I have come to love about Border Collies, and ruin the breed for those that do utilize these dogs for what they were developed to do. If that is evil, then I'm sure I will be sprouting horns and looking to purchase me a pitchfork this afternoon.

 

Alright, enough, I'm getting long winded and I'm sure I've opened meself up to get blasted.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Joe Anne:

I was just sorta throwing out the thought of the breeder selling to "pet people, instead of working dogs".

Joe Anne,

Someone once asked me why I would consider a person for a puppy list that was basically a pet home, when there were working homes that wanted on the list. My answer was simple: "I'd rather a pup go to a great pet home than a not-so-great working home." I think many breeders would willingly sell a working-bred pup into a great pet home before selling it into a mediocre, or worse, bad herding home. The most important thing for me is that the pup have a good, loving home, where it will be well cared for and treated as the personal or family partner it should be. There are good and bad working and pet homes. Choosing where to sell a pup comes down to the home the breeder feels the most comfortable with. After all, it's a life we're talking about....

 

J.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

My answer was simple: "I'd rather a pup go to a great pet home than a not-so-great working home." I think many breeders would willingly sell a working-bred pup into a great pet home before selling it into a mediocre, or worse, bad herding home. The most important thing for me is that the pup have a good, loving home, where it will be well cared for and treated as the personal or family partner it should be. There are good and bad working and pet homes. Choosing where to sell a pup comes down to the home the breeder feels the most comfortable with. After all, it's a life we're talking about....

 

J. [/QB]

Perfectly stated. Thank you.

 

Maria

[BeezSK]

Originally posted by Dita Kilsby:

Well I did say I was never coming back on this forum and I won't be again. But I will have my final say

Just admit you love the attention already

[Smokjbc]

As all dogs will herd, the basic instinct cannot be lost.>> Dita

 

 

This is a good example of the abysmal ignorance many conformation supporters exhibit when it comes to understand working ability or even "herding" ability. All dogs do not herd- that is an false, ridiculous statement. Some dogs will chase/exhibit prey drive, but certainly not all or even most when faced with livestock. The ability to control livestock is extremely complex and made up of multiple behavioral and physical genetic characteristics.

 

Which is why I think the basic herding certificates for show dogs are not really worth the paper their printed on.>>

 

On that, I would agree, yet many show Border Collie breeders use that to "prove" their dogs have working potential.

 

Yes some lines are always going to be better at it and if you continue to breed from the workaholic lines you stand a better chance of getting the workaholic dogs you desire.>>

 

Again- this is not just about work ethic. I think that should be made clear because many folks mistake work ethic and ability for simple drive. I have dogs that will work their pants off on stock but have zero drive off of stock (unless you count cat herding drive ) If it were just about prey drive and work ethic- many breeds could excel at it. But the ability to work as well as Border Collie is exceptional and unique among dogs.

 

However not everyone wants that and if you love the looks of a Border Collie but just want an active fun dog they so be it>>

 

If you like the looks of the breed- get a rescue or a working bred pup. The working dogs are what the breed "looks like" and most are quite striking and attractive. Why conformation breeders think they need to screw around with these already gorgeous dogs, I don't know. I even have a "Barbie" looking dog- definitely all working bred- that is similar to conformation bred dogs (although her face doesn't have that blank, vacant look - so there is no reason that someone who wanted "fluffy" couldn't find it without perverting a breed to get it.

[Eileen Stein]

Dita, since your post had some content to it (unlike Kirsten's, which was pure insults devoid of substance), I will leave it up and reply to it. Next time you put up a post containing personal insults, however, I will remove it and you from the Boards.

 

>

 

There is no such law. No one on these Boards, or anywhere else that I'm aware of, says that you should not own a dog if you cannot do what it was originally bred for. We have said, over and over again, that there is no problem with anyone owning a border collie if they meet its needs and take good care of it. You can find many examples on this thread of posts which say that. The Welcome--READ THIS FIRST post says so. It's odd to me that show breeders keep wanting to frame the discussion in these terms, when there is no dispute there.

 

The problem comes with BREEDING, not with appreciation or ownership. The essence of the border collie breed is the ability to work livestock to a very high standard. It is for that and that alone that the breed was developed and maintained. It is what defines the breed. If it had been developed to a different standard, it would be a different breed. Therefore, to take border collies and start breeding them to a different standard, an appearance standard rather than a working standard, and to foster that kind of breeding by honoring such a dog as the best of the border collie breed based only on its appearance is a travesty, and harmful to the breed. The harm may not be very great in the UK, where the border collie is well established in the public mind as basically a sheepdog, but the potential for harm is much greater here in the US. If you changed the name of the breed when you changed its character, we would have no objections. But pretending the dogs are still border collies when they're being bred to an entirely different standard is destructive and wrong.

 

>

 

All dogs will NOT herd. I'm not even sure all dogs will chase, though most of them will. I don't know what you're terming "the basic instinct," but whatever it is, it's not what defines the border collie. The ability to work to a very high standard is what defines the border collie, and it's a complicated genetic package. You cannot assume it is there in a dog unless you put it to the test (a real test, not "I took my bitch into the ring with sheep and she went right round them, which proves that she has it all"), and it will be gradually lost in those lines where it is not rigorously selected for in breeding. I do agree with you that herding certificates for show dogs are not worth the paper they're printed on -- too bad so many show breeders use them as a basis for claims that their dog is a true border collie.

 

>

 

"Workaholic" is a perjorative term. It denotes someone who is abnormal, driven, cannot relax, cannot enjoy anything but work. I'm sorry you think that of working border collies, especially since it isn't true.

 

>

 

Of course, the photo (which no one here stole--if it was stolen it would still be here) was not posted with any intent to hurt you, and I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe you were caused any hurt. Why would you care what we think of how your dogs look? You've made it very clear that you have total contempt for us and our views. I lost two dogs within two months last year -- one very old and one tragically young -- and I can honestly say that even at that time if I'd read on the internet that some show breeders I don't know were saying that my dogs were rubbish, horrendous-looking so-called BCs, awful critters, only capable of running in crappy trials, etc., it wouldn't have added one jot to my sadness.

 

>

 

Please note that in this post I have replied to the points you raise without resorting to personal insults. I expect you to do the same if you post again.