So sad,,,,

[PennyT]

Cathy wrote: So before you go making comments REMEMBER who could be reading the boards.

 

The Boards are a much needed counter-weight to the inflated claims of versatility and show breeders.

 

When newcomers read boilerplate puffery on the order of "our pups are bred for type, soundness, temperament, and to retain working ability," these newcomers need to know that this is in almost all cases shorthand for conformation to the exclusion of serious livestock working ability. When newcomers read similar puffery which includes "bred for versatility" or "can do it all," they need to know that these alluring phrases in all likelihood are shorthand for not taking livestock working skills seriously and in all likelihood for taking either agility trial success or conformation ring success as worthwhile indicators of dogs that should be bred.

 

Newcomers deserve to know that breeding for activities other than livestock work ignores the essence of the breed. The fact that there is only one full champion in the U.K. is ample proof of this.

 

Versatility or conformation border collie breeders and enthusiasts who make ridiculous claims should be called on those claims. With health as a given, border collies bred for versatility in almost all cases are inferior to mediocre workers, not worth breeding if the breeder's goal is to improve the breed. Again with health as a given, border collies seriously bred for livestock work in almost all cases can do it all.

 

Satire is a good way to introduce newcomers to the fact that what conformation breeders think is a good specimen of the breed is almost always not and that what conformation and versatility breeders think is good working ability in their dogs is almost always not.

 

A claim that a breeder's border collies are bred to do it all is a red flag.

 

Breeding a border collie who takes BOB at Westminster is a red flag that the breeder doesn't know what he or she is doing in terms of producing good border collies.

 

Ridicule of BOB at Westminster and of conformation and versatility breeders who claim to be improving the breed acts as an eye opener for many newcomers as careful reading of threads on these subjects will reveal. Also a few conformation and versatility breeders have changed their advertising claims as a result.

 

Aside: Albionlass, where have you been since the early nineties? Much as I dislike trivializing human suffering by analogies to doggy politics, I can't help thinking of Chamberlain.

 

Penny

[locheilUK]

I'm not going down the road, of saying i'm sort of wonder trial person, I love working with and training border collies, i also like showing them.

I only came on to this group because I'd been told one of my dogs was being ridiculed. I came on 'all guns blazing' because i was angry and said some things that I would not normally say. I'm a friendly, tolerant person, who likes to treat people as I would like to be treated myself. I thought this came over in the second post I wrote, I'm not out to be antagonistic. I didn't know anything about this group, when I posted the first mail. But I am from a farming family, been around working collies all my days, my uncle was a well known Scottish handler now deceased and he taught me all I know about training dogs. Alistair MacRae I know and he comes from the same area as me, I know john Hastie well, I know Julie whom you will know as Simpson, I've used Johnny Wilson's dogs, used Wisp, but I've never proclaimed to be a top handler. I didn't lie when I talked of being told what trials were like in the States, but I'm sure really that is just a small percentage. I know there have been some great dogs imported and I certainly think these are the dogs to be used, but I have seen some very strange looking dogs on some sites that definitely do not look at all like any kind of Bc I've ever seen. But each to their own..... Over here they have quite often a class for the best looking collie at the trials, sometimes its the type that could win here in the ring that wins, ie your typical BC like, Bobby Henderson's Sweep type, Spot type and Wisp type, all are very nice looking dogs, sometimes it is the bare skinned type but they too are often good looking dogs, well proportioned. When I did the ISDS show BC working test, Norman Seamark was one of the judges and he said he liked my dog a lot and afterwards he asked me to come to the International where he presented me with a tankard he had engraved to mark Nap being the first BC full Champion. He said that he was the type of dog we show folk should be breeding from. Nap as a worker had tremendous natural ability and I'm sure in a keen triallists hands he would have done very well. I'm not interested in arguing especially with fanatical people who only can see 'one way'. I just felt very aggreived at the time that my dog and others were being made fun of by folk who didn't know anything about the dogs or their owners. I still beieve its wrong to 'lift' pictures from websites without permission for the purpose of making fun of them. That's not the kind of people I'd like to be friends with. Over here, the triallists are just really keen to see folk coming to the trials and they will help all they can with folk's dogs, its only its ability they care about, they don't pre -judge the pedigree. The 'craic' is good and a good day out is had by all. We all know 'duffers' can appear even in the best working bred litters, I had a Neil MacVicar's Jan to Wisp daughter who never did a stroke of work in her life, but she bred some very useful ones. And vice versa I've had some stylish workers from some of my show lines. As I said before over here we live and let live, it makes for a much more pleasant life. I know I will be attacked again by Penny or whoever but I can say no more.

cheers and have a good day

Heather Turner

[BeezSK]

Originally posted by AlbionLass:

Please could you remove my membership from this board. I find the attitudes of some members narrow minded and would rather not be tempted in future to become embroiled in the kind of pointless discussion that goes on in this forum.

Just click "logout" and don't come back. No need to make a public spectacle out of it.

[PennyT]

Who said you outright lied? I thought it was an exaggeration...now I'm beginning to believe it is flat true. I'm sure you have very successfully planted a seed of doubt in U.S. handlers who have previously treasured the praise of venerated British handlers. Words describing admiration from lots of people who come over to judge and teach have inched into displays of kindness and diplomacy then flowed into masked insincerity and arrogance.

 

Like many U.S. handlers, I welcome and provide free access to sheep to new handlers with border collies bred any old way and pretty much regardless of talent. I should. I am the poster girl for starting from nothing.

 

I think, as do most, that well bred nonworkers can produce talented pups. This does not mean that generations bred for qualities other than work will do so.

 

If that were not true, then British conformation breeders would be going after those full championships. They aren't. They have had lots of time. It's an accolade swept under the rug. So sad.

 

Penny

[Little Bo Boop]

I have followed this diatribe for quite some time. Let me preface this with, I quite loathe the AKC, much like Halter classes in equine diciplines Personally I think it's a disgrace what we humans have been allowed to do to breeds of all types, canine and equine. I could go on and on, but I'll spare you that . I've put a lot of thought into this, and to all of you 'hardliner' herding types, I think we all agree that Border Collies are a breed apart, and it's obvious we all love and appreciate them, but no matter the match, there is no guarantee that out of a litter of 6 pups that all are going to be champions or that they'll even work...that being said, what do you do with the culls? knock 'em in the head and throw them in the river? (instert tongue in cheek) is it really such a tragedy if Spot, who's lineage goes back to Int. Supreme champs. doesn't dig sheep and goes to a home that does agility or flyball with him? Don't get me wrong, I have admired herding dogs for as long as I can remember, I've got the 'bug', I have a lovely little dog that is taking me on a fantastic journey, and I love it I also have a beautiful dog that isn't so keen on herding, though he tries. My point is that at the end of the day dogs are here to bring you joy and happiness in your life. Do I wish my young male was more keen? Yes, do I love him any less because he's not? NO. He brings me happiness in many other ways. For what it's worth I'm not scared of the AKC, I see more people getting into stock dogs, and appreciating the true calling of the Border Collie. Quite possibly what the herding world needs is better PR (sorry, it's 2006) Forget about getting into a pissing contest with the AKC, work on promoting herding to new handlers (you have to be really dedicated and determined to get into this let me tell you) and perhaps pay more attention to eduacating the public, the folks who attend trials as spectators. I think you'd accomplish more that way than this ongoing bickering and squabbling with people who are diametrically opposed to your way of thinking, and who, I promise you, are not going to change.

 

Betty, who if she can't get her dog to quit busting up the sheep, is going to knock her in the head and throw her in the river

[Black Watch Debatable]

is it really such a tragedy if Spot, who's lineage goes back to Int. Supreme champs. doesn't dig sheep and goes to a home that does agility or flyball with him? [...]My point is that at the end of the day dogs are here to bring you joy and happiness in your life.

Where, where, where on earth does anyone come up with the idea that doing agility and flyball with a border collie is a "tragedy"? It's fantastic to get your dog involved in those activities, and Eileen and others have said that over and over and over

 

THE TRAGEDY IS BREEDING BORDER COLLIES FOR THOSE ACTIVITIES.

 

Because at the end of the day, farmers and ranchers don't need a dog to bring them joy and happiness: their livelihoods, and in many cases their animals' safety and well-being, depend on a dog that can get the job done.

 

Breeding for athleticism, brains, guts and the initiative a good stockdog needs is the reason the border collie is the matchless dog it is. Real work is the only test of a dog's worthiness to breed, and work will show a responsible breeder which dogs to neuter and place in pet or sport homes.

 

Trust me: when Alasdair MacRae bred Nan, he didn't say to himself, "I know! I'll call that woman whose dogs can 'do it all'! She'll be sure to have the right stud for my Nan!"

[PennyT]

Luisa, you're great. I simply could not fathom that Heather and Little Bo Pup were not understanding that the crux of the disagreement is not with enjoying competitive doggy activities; the crux disagreement is over what dogs are geuinely and honestly bred for.

 

Penny

[Little Bo Boop]

Because at the end of the day, farmers and ranchers don't need a dog to bring them joy and happiness: their livelihoods, and in many cases their animals' safety and well-being, depend on a dog that can get the job done.

 

My dear, I hate to break the news to you, but the people who are most adamant about the Border Collie staying true to it's heritage, are not farmers and ranchers,who by the way are becoming few and far btwn. I would venture to say that the people making the most noise are peole who trial, (real farmers and ranchers can't be bothered nor have the time to get into such debates) be honest, how many on this board have actual sheep operations, who's livelihood depends on their dogs ability to herd stock? If you said 10% I think you'd be kidding yourself. Bottom line, sheep herding, cattle dog trials, are a 'competition'. All your big name trainers, trialers...where do they make their $$$$ ? selling dogs, training dogs, giving clinics for gunzels like us who want to 'compete' You may like to think that it's more noble than agility or flyball or name your poison maybe it is. I know it takes more natural instinct, time and finesse to make a great trial dog, but at the end of the day, it has still become no more, no less than a competition. And lest you think I'm belittling the, in my estimation, the noblest of all dogs , I watched a video of the 2003 finals this afternoon, and had the pleasure of watching 11 yr. old Moss compete, and I must say it brought a tear to my eye. What a grand old dog, on such a tough course, against dogs half his age, slogging through till the end, and taking 2nd. Truly a testimony to how great these dogs of ours really are.

[Eileen Stein]

The reason why working ability is lost over time in conformation lines lies in the recombination of genes. A simplified explanation can be found here. {Note: If any conformation breeders read this link, you will note that the author in one of her examples uses E to designate the dominant black allele and e to designate the recessive red (or, as you would say, liver or chocolate) allele. She uses a different notation system. Just mentally substitute B for E and b for e and you'll have no trouble following it. Also note that it was written quite some time ago, when the AKC was maintaining that it would close its studbook three years after recognition. As you probably all know, it kept extending the deadline, and now is keeping the studbook open to our dogs forever.}

 

Thus, it is not remarkable that occasionally the genes could recombine in such a way as to produce a conformation-bred dog who has good working ability. That's why one or two examples of a show-bred dog who can work to a decent standard means nothing. The point is that working ability is lost in the population -- insufficient numbers of these random recombinations will be produced to permit working ability to be maintained throughout the gene pool.

 

The situation in the UK is very different from the situation in the US. The idea of the border collie as essentially a sheepdog -- a dog defined by its work and not its appearance -- is so firmly rooted and so broadly held in the public mind there, that KC showing and show breeding is no threat to it. It is highly unlikely that show-bred dogs would ever come to dominate or even influence the traditional breed. That is not our situation here.

 

>

 

Cathy, I don't remember whether it was you or one of your friends who turned out to be "George," but the fact is that during the blitz your group conducted on these Boards some months back, someone in your group signed on falsely claiming to be a shepherd called George, in order to repeat, via a false identity designed to lend some credibility, all the sentiments that you routinely attribute to nameless shepherds and triallists. "George" was only one of the false registrations. And you didn't sign your initial post this time around; you admitted your identity only after I pointed it out. You can't expect that people won't remember and react to all that.

 

>

 

Thanks for the warning, but discussion on these Boards will not be limited by fear of the sort of thing we have seen the last couple of days. I trust that people will continue to post their views for discussion, including their views on breeding border collies for conformation, with examples where appropriate. We can take the insults, and I won't allow them to go on for so long the next time.

 

In contrast, I have had forwarded to me over time a handful of posts from BC-C (which I believe is your list, Cathy), which trash these Boards, other people on the Boards, and me personally. I'm sure there are more that have not been forwarded to me, especially in the last few days, since I would be amazed if our readership is so extensive among show breeders in the UK and Europe as to bring the surge in posting that we've experienced in this thread without some recruitment. I will tell you right now, and you can count on it, that you will never find me trying to join your list to deliver "comeback." Unlike those who come here and comically post over and over again that we are too pathetic to bother with, I really do have better things to do.

 

>

 

No, but I will be at the Scottish National.

 

>

 

I have just re-read your posts on this thread, trying to find a basis to believe that it would be nice to say hello -- or that you would think it would be nice to say hello -- and I couldn't find any.

[Guest KirsSchm]

Nice to hear you will be in Scotland Eileen (the lawyer who doesn't work in an office ???) I'm sure there will be one or two breeders only too happy to come and say hello.

[Eileen Stein]

Luisa wrote, quite correctly:

 

>

 

And then Little Bo Boop wrote:

 

>

 

Boop, if you're suggesting that Luisa's statement is not true because most of the people on these Boards don't depend on stock for their livelihood, surely you can see the logical fallacy there. The former in no way follows from the latter. I'm sure you're right that full-time farmers and ranchers generally don't have the time to get into debates like this on the Boards. Many have told me so. Many of them may not even be comfortable with the internet, or with verbal advocacy and argument. These and many other reasons may prevent them from "making noise" here, but that doesn't mean that the farmers and ranchers don't hold those views, or support the advocacy. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't need a good working dog to get the job done. Likewise, because trialers (and pet owners, for that matter) want to retain working ability in the breed, it doesn't follow that farmers and ranchers don't. Of course they do. Or at least that's what I hear from those that I have contact with, or who contact me. Why do you think they wouldn't?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

At the end of the day, stockmen are bemoaning the increasing difficulty of finding a good dog. The bad dogs that are out there are making it worse, though I don't blame the AKC for that at the moment . conversation goes something like this:

 

Oh, Border collies. I/My dad/my granddad used to have great dogs that could do anything you asked them, worth two or three hands. Can't find dogs like that anymore.

[mjk05]

Over here they have quite often a class for the best looking collie at the trials, sometimes its the type that could win here in the ring that wins, ie your typical BC like, Bobby Henderson's Sweep type, Spot type and Wisp type, all are very nice looking dogs, sometimes it is the bare skinned type but they too are often good looking dogs, well proportioned.

Interesting points, Heather. But it begs the question- if working-breeding produces dogs that are "nice looking" as it is, what is the point of the show ring for the border collie breed, and breeding these dogs specifically for that purpose?

 

As you've pointed out, people who want a "typical BC like" dog, for pet or sports etc, can already find that in the working-bred dogs. So why not let them do that- keep the Border Collie a working breed, and leave the conformation judging and breeding for those breeds who no longer have a working purpose to maintain them?

[Black Watch Debatable]

PennyT wrote:

When newcomers read boilerplate puffery on the order of "our pups are bred for type, soundness, temperament, and to retain working ability," these newcomers need to know that this is in almost all cases shorthand for conformation to the exclusion of serious livestock working ability. When newcomers read similar puffery which includes "bred for versatility" or "can do it all," they need to know that these alluring phrases in all likelihood are shorthand for not taking livestock working skills seriously and in all likelihood for taking either agility trial success or conformation ring success as worthwhile indicators of dogs that should be bred.

 

Newcomers deserve to know that breeding for activities other than livestock work ignores the essence of the breed.

Amen. This should be posted in big letters at the top of the screen.

 

 

Another thing that muddies the waters: a few U.S. "versatility" breeders have put AKC conformation championships on dogs bred purely for work and/or admitted to the AKC through open registration.

 

As a result, once in a very, very rare while you'll hear an AKC breeder crow, "Conformation Champion XXX just won a USBCHA trial! Our dogs CAN do it all, nyah, nyah, nyah!"

 

"Our dogs"? That's disingenuous. The handful of AKC show-champion border collies that compete in USBCHA trials were born to dogs from working registries or in some cases to first-generation AKC parents. To act as if their limited trialling achievements somehow validate breeding for conformation (or "versatility") is just nuts.

 

In the UK there seems to be a strong, decades-long tradition of taking ISDS-bred dogs into the show ring. It isn't surprising that so few of these dogs (or their get) have enjoyed much trials success, though, since stockwork is clearly not a priority for their breeder/owners. Pity.

[Arnpriors]

However, don't show dog breeders and exhibitors face steep criticism in the ring? I know some people from the dog fancy and am apalled at the way handlers tear apart each others dogs in a particularly nasty fashion. I'm sure you must have encountered similar, so you ought be pretty tough by now.

Muddy

 

P.S. You might take comfort that our dogs really don't care about all of this. They are just glad to be with us. Give yours a pat for me. [/QB]

 

Thre can be, and often is a lot of bitchyness in the breed ring, but that doesn't mean we get used to it, or aren't upset by it. It's wrong, and it's rude, and it puts off many conformation Newbies, who are just there to enjoy their dog.

 

No one likes to here their dog being rubbished, either at a show, or on a public board. It can be very upsetting, particularly for someone who has just lost a very much loved dog, and finds another of their oldies being held up for ridicule.

 

I'm not on here to start any kind of fight, I really don't think it's worth argueing over a dog, which I may like, but which everyone else thinks horrendouse. It's still the same dog, and I wont like it any less, and you're right, the dog really couldn't care less.

 

But people can be badly hurt, particularly when they're vulnerable, and it IS unfair, to cause them any more upset. Under those cercumstances, your bound to get an extreme reaction, it's only natural.

 

Anyway, I have to go, and try and get rid of the burrs, and make my dogs look like show dogs, which at the moment looks like an almost impossible task, and I will give tham a pat ( although after being fluffed up and cleaned, it's unlikely they'll appreciate it)

 

I haven't spellchecked this, and I can't spell to save my life, so good luck deciphering it.

[SaxonBCs]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Irena Farm:

1)

 

Thank you very much, I had a young dog that two different Supreme winner handlers made offers for, on different occaisions. And he was a slick coated, black and tan, ugly little thing with mismatched ears. He took rather after that horrible American bred dog in his pedigree, oh, what was his name, oh yes, Whitehope Nap. He got his mismatched ears - and probably his brilliance on stubborn sheep - from his g-grandsire, another of those rotten, useless American dogs, Bosworth Coon.

American dogs? Do you mean Whitehope Nap 8685 ISDS and Bosworth Coon 34186 ISDS I think you need to go and do your homework (LMLWFAO)

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I was being sarcastic. My point was that my dogs, who are very typically what you'd think of as "American," get their looks honestly from their immediate British ancestors.

[Arnpriors]

, Bosworth Coon. [/qb]

American dogs? Do you mean Whitehope Nap 8685 ISDS and Bosworth Coon?

 

Actually, Bosworth Coon, sired some of the UK's top Obedience dogs, long before the KC recognised B/C's, and he did throw a lot of very hard dogs.

People breeding for obedience, were always advised not to double up on him, because of the OCD temperament he produced.

I have never heard that he was ever exported.

[Little Bo Boop]

Boop, if you're suggesting that Luisa's statement is not true because most of the people on these Boards don't depend on stock for their livelihood, surely you can see the logical fallacy there. The former in no way follows from the latter.

 

Actually no, I was really suggesting that there are fewer ranches and farms that actually utilize dogs, so one, I can't imagine the demand being that great, and two, I find it hard to believe that they are unable or find it difficult to find dogs to work. I'm in Texas and I had many options on pups from working stock. The first pup I bought from a non-working family, wouldn't be suitable for trialing, but he would make someone a great farm dog, and is useful. The 2nd pup, was purchased from a working home, and will be suitable for trialing, my hopes are 'very suitable' So in my mind, in Texas at least, there is no shortage of dogs available to work stock. I mean, where you are located, ya got a little jingle in your pocket, you head out to find a pup to trial, and all you're able to find is agility and conformation dogs? Really????

So at this point am I to understand that you, the collective you, of this board are taking it upon yourselves to 'save the working bred Border Collies' for all the farmers and Ranchers out there that are too busy to do it themselves? And I'm not trying to be un-kind, but I guess I really do not see the 'great crisis' that you portray on the horizon. I understand that this is an on-going and very emotional issue for some/many, but as I stated earlier, it seems to me your efforts and energy would be better spent on promotion of Border Collies as stock dogs, not the endless bickering back and forth with folks with a different agenda, whos's minds you will never change.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Fewer than what? What are the statistics?

 

>

 

I guess history shows there are always some people who can put the pieces together and foresee future consequences, while others are oblivious until it's too late and they see the causes of the consequences with the aid of hindsight. Saying there's no problem because I don't have a problem right now is another logical fallacy. (I'm reminded of the guy in the joke who fell from a 40 story building and as he passed the 20th floor hollered, "I'm okay so far.") In this case too, we will not know definitively if there was any cause for concern unless we do nothing now and see what happens, but some of us can't be persuaded that that's the best course of action.

 

>

 

I see that you don't. And it's because of that, I guess, that you see me and others here as self-important do-gooders whose efforts are foolish. But you do see, don't you, that whether or not we're right about the crisis doesn't depend on whether you see a crisis? It doesn't even depend on how many farmers and ranchers know enough about genetics, history, the power of the AKC, etc., to see a crisis. Even if none of them did (which is far from the case), that wouldn't make the crisis less real if it IS real.

 

>

 

Yes, I'm well known as a slave to my emotions.

 

>

 

I agree that promotion of border collies as stockdogs is very important. The first two objectives of the USBCC are

 

# To protect the genetic heritage of the Border Collie in the United States.

# To promote its use as a traditional working (herding) dog for the better management of livestock.

 

You apparently think one must choose between those objectives and devote energy to only one or the other, and that the second is more worthy than the first. I think both objectives are worthy of being pursued, and indeed that both of them must be pursued -- it would be useless to achieve one without the other. I also think (and I accept that you disagree) that these Boards are a worthwhile educational tool in pursuit of the first objective, and that while bickering with people whose minds will never be changed is futile as far as those people are concerned, it may have some beneficial fallout as regards open-minded readers of the Boards. I may be wrong. But whenever we put effort into something, we have to recognize that the effort may be unavailing, may be wasted. I do recognize that, but I put in the effort anyway.

[Little Bo Boop]

I have to go out and work my dog, before the temp. gets to 100 !!!!! But I shall respond

[PennyT]

"I see that you don't. And it's because of that, I guess, that you see me and others here as self-important do-gooders whose efforts are foolish."

 

It's a lot better than self-important doggy nihilism though, isn't it?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I have never heard that he was ever exported.

Geez. Therefore, we couldn't possibly have any American bred dogs that have him for an immediate ancestor? Are you serious? Have you heard of importing bitches in whelp? Or do you think no one there ever sells good dogs sired by British champions?

 

My point is, we have dogs bred just like those overseas. There's no such thing as an American Border collie. They are just Border collies, with the same standard for excellence as their close relations overseas.

[Little Bo Boop]

First of all you didn't answer my question, is there a shortage of working dogs in this country? Pups, started dogs, working trained dogs. And just yes or no please, not, well maybe, there could be,there is going to be, just yes or no. Was it not just a month ago that everybody was up in arms about there not being enough slots at a certain trial? Were all these people going to show up dogless or with agility Border Collies in tow? You basically accuse me of having a crystal ball as to the demise of the working dog when you in essence are giulty of the same thing, except it's a glass half empty, glass half full kind of deal.

 

"And it's because of that, I guess, that you see me and others here as self-important do-gooders whose efforts are foolish."

 

Wow, I never said that or intimated that. I specifically said I was not trying to be unkind but I that I thought your efforts would/could be put to better use. It's the twisting of words like that, that alienate people, like myself and I'm for the most part on your side.

 

The way I see it is in Eileen's perfect world,(please correct me if I'm wrong) all Border Collie's would be bred to work, all pups that popped out that were not inclined to work, would be neutered, and put into pet/sport homes, where they could be enjoyed but just not allowed to reproduce, hence adding to the assurance that they would not add to the non-herding gene pool. Hell in Betty's perfect world, my dog would have a perfect outrun in both directions, and I'd be able to teach her to get sheep of the fence in an orderly manner in about 5 min. oh! and it wouldn't be freakin' 100 degrees and it's not even summer yet! But it's not Eileen's or Betty's perfect world. Other folks have ideas about their perfect world . Unfortunalty for good or ill it is and has been, human nature to tinker, to change, to adapt, for lack of a better word commodities, whether that be cars, trucks, horses, dogs. Unfortunalty horses and dogs are living beings, and the changes made are not always in the best interest of the animal, and many times due to a percieved 'oh this will make them prettier' or 'this will make them faster' or in some cases, 'if we do this to them, we'll make $$$$$$$$$. You of course can not diminish the money factor I don't like it, but I also realize it's a situation I have no control over. All I can do is effect my own little part of the world. For my part I generally try to talk people out of getting Border Collies, they aren't for everyone. If someone wants a dog for herding, I try to send them in the right direction, to a reputable breeder. I tout the Border Collie as a working dog to anybody/everybody that will listen And yes!!! I denounce the AKC every chance I get!! More than that I cannot do What's the quote, about accepting the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and 'the wisdom to know the difference' Knowing the difference is the key.

[Pipedream Farm]

Has the price of trained dogs increased?

If so, why?

Perhaps due to supply and demand?

 

Mark (Off to Hop Bottom)