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Arnpriors, perhaps you mean "psychic"? A "physic" is a cathartic (a medicine meant to evacuate the bowels).

 

It's all very well to agree to disagree when there's nothing of import at stake. Let's say you and your spouse had a child and you believed it was bad and wrong to beat the child unconscious, but your spouse thought that was perfectly acceptable, maybe even beneficial. Would you agree to disagree on that? Or would you dig in and fight to the death for the good of your child, for its wellbeing, for its very survival? PLEASE NOTE that I am not saying these are the same - everyone here knows that dogs (even BCs!) are not children. However, I use this example to illustrate the fact that there most certainly ARE situations in which it is not only NOT possible to agree to disagree, but in which it would be wrong to do so. For those who care passionately about the wellbeing of the BC as a breed, and who see the very real threat to its continued wellbeing and even its very existance, agreeing to diagree is not going to be in the cards. Sorry.

 

As for the ongoing return of those who have already been caught out in various subterfuges and masquerades... ISTM that it is THOSE people who are trying to pick a fight, not the members of this board. Why do they return? What is their vendetta? ISTM that there is some agenda there that has nothing to do with honest debate or the exchange of ideas. And perhaps the "most stupidest" [sic] thing is their recurring reappearance in new guises in the apparently vain hope that they will not be recognised.

 

It is most likely true that "we" (which I take to mean "those who do not own, breed or show for conformation", since your comments do NOT seem to be addressed to those members of the boards who do) will not go to an AKC or other conformation site and find "our" dogs (which I take to mean "non-comformation-bred dogs") "being trashed" there, because A) we are not likely to be going to those sites anyway, since that is not where our interests lie, and :rolleyes: we are NOT running around the net claiming that our dogs can beat the socks off any conformation champ going. Those of us who do not own conformation-bred dogs do not give a rat's @%& whether our dogs could compete in that venue, and would not claim, as so many conformation dog owners DO claim, that they could "do it all" - it is of NO INTEREST to us if they look good in a show ring. Hence we would not claim that they could, and would not be insulted if someone pointed out that they would not triumph in that venue. I would not choose a partner, a friend, a horse, a car or a book based on looks. Why would I make an exception for a dog? Particularly if I were a farmer who needed to rely on that dog to get a job done? Would I not be a thousand times more interested in the work the dog turned out, day after day, than the way it looked? And let's just say that of 1,000 people surveyed, 1,000 of them said it was the best looking dog ever born. Yeah, so? Why would I care? That's not why I have the dog.

 

I don't know. I guess I can't understand why this point is so hard to communicate. I want a dog with some substance, some heart, some guts, some kindness and some brains. If I was a farmer, I'd need one who had all that and who could work. What they looked like would not even enter into it. Their looks are immaterial, except for being the way I recognise them; the vehicle for the beloved dog who resides within that skin. I love my dogs for what they are, not what they look like. Every one of them is beautiful in my eyes because of what they are, in themselves - but I could care less what anyone else thinks of their looks, and would never in a million years think to judge them based on something so superficial. It would be an insult to what they really ARE to put that sort of judgement onto them, as if that was the measure of them. It is the least yardstick, IMO, and a foolish prejudice to think that being beautiful as compared to an arbitrary standard of appearance would somehow make them better dogs. Were I a farmer or a rancher who had to depend on those dogs to do a day's work - how much stupider it would be to care about that.

 

JMO, of course.

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Unfair in what way? By posting the picture itself rather than a link, the poster who put up the picture ensured that the bitch was not identified. I'm sure that no one on the thread knew who the bitch was, or how old she was. Whatever her age, I don't think she looks that different from other show dogs, and I doubt her owner would have posted the photo on the Web if she thought it made her bitch look bad. I wouldn't have posted the photo here myself, but then I'm not interested in what show dogs look like -- the problem IMO is not that show breeders are breeding for an appearance I find unattractive, it's that they're breeding border collies for appearance at all. However, in a discussion about breeding border collies for the show ring, and the type of appearance that results and is considered desirable, I don't really understand why using that photo as an example is in any way unfair.

 

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Who said it does?

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<< These guys where visiting a strange country and getting paid to judge. Do you really think they're going to say they think their dogs are trash??? >>

 

I had two of them offer to take Tess home. Both were serious. Oh yea, my piece of trash dog got her papers on merit....meaning, she earned them. By working and not parading around in a ring.

 

I have a few friends who have show Border Collies....they love their dogs and know their dog's limitations on stock......and do not brag that their dogs are far superior than the working Border Collie....they are on this board too.....they have actively engaged in great chats on this board and are just good people. I have known them for years and they lead by example. I am glad they are my friends.

 

Diane Pagel

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Originally posted by smileyzookie:

quote:
Originally posted by Kirsty:

You can all jump to each others defences on here with your we're right you're wrong attitude.

Kirs,

You should know by now if you've read the previous posts the views of this board. In case you didnt see it, here it is again. BC board views If you do read this you'll see that your views and our views are not the same. If you dont like what you are reading, I'd advise you dont go to a website that promotes things you dont like. In reference to your comment "Why can you not get on with doing your thing and let others do theirs" I believe we are doing our thing. Talking about it in a setting made for this topic and views. Maybe it is you who should get on doing "your thing" because obviously this board isnt "your thing". I dont see us registering on boards with different views to argue with them, I'd suggest before you go pointing fingers you remember where you are. There are many members on these boards that are on conformation boards, they lurk then come back here with tittle tattle for a giggle. My group alone had about 15 members from these boards apply to join during the last incident we had here, some were allowed on, some not, the ones who did join us have been very nice and put their point of view across constructively. The problem with this board seems to come from some very immature people who don't really have anything constructive to say.

 

I would respect the views of this board if comments where made in a constructive manner, nothing wrong with a critical debate from both sides but its marred and causes friction when comments are used like the following:

 

How old is that dog? Look at how its "lips" are already sagging. And he looks like he ran into a tree face first

But again maybe thats why his "lips" are sagging.

 

OMG, it really does look like a stuffed toy!

 

oooohhh... but they just might get their trimmed up white footsie's dirty!

 

Thats a really pretty dog...what is it? Maybe his nose is short and his lips droop cause he got kicked while working a cow...sheesh, you guys are soooo quick to judge. I am sure they took the time to comb out all the brambles and mud and washed their dog right after they finished shearing in prep for lambing...comeon give em credit!

 

Ok this is just sick and twisted...from the BorderFame website at http://www.borderfame.com/index2.htm

 

OMG that thing at the top is built like a Saint Bernard!

 

As for the Borderfame page, they do have a "little farmyard"

 

I don't think "Contestant #1" is a Border Collie at all - it's a Golden Retriever in the "Formalwear" competition, decked out in its little tuxedo. I wonder what it could do for a "Talent" competition?

 

Mud, manure? OH LORD, I hope not ;( Do you KNOW how LONG it takes to get it out of the coat??? All the bathing and drying and all the broken ends, the HORRORS!!!! You must train your dog to move away from projectile poop, and puddles! I am sorry ma'am, you just ain't cut out for the show dog world

 

I have never liked the looks of merlin, but I must say, after seeing this show champian..I think I like Merlin better lol

 

It looks like they are going for a look that is somewhere between a sheltie and a Pomeranian.

 

These are just off this thread, the whole board is littered with comments like this.

 

These boards are on public display for non members to read, I'm sure you lose a lot of prospective members justfrom reading some of the threads. Also, breeders who you slag off can read so expect some comeback from it.

 

So before you go making comments REMEMBER who could be reading the boards.

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Well said Diane. This is pretty much the real world feeling I get. I have two "show" Kelpies, the first I got when I didn't know there was a difference, and the second I got because she needed a good home. No one I have met in person has ever felt the need to insult my dogs because of their breeding. THe only insults I have ever received were on the internet. The internet is a mighty tool, sometimes it gives courage for some to speak up about something they feel strongly about, and for others, it is a medium whom people use to say things that momma would chastise them for saying (if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all). I have worked my dogs on sheep on a limited basis. I CAN say that my youngest girl has talent and tools. Will we ever get there- meaning trialing? Who knows. But, I don't go screaming to the hill tops that she is the best dog because she can work- she is what she is- a pet dog who gets to do fun hobbies with me, and, who, by the way is nice looking

The point is, there are so many people with dogs for so many reasons, there is just no way on this planet of ours that we will all agree. The tenet of these boards follows that the BC is a working dog, and should not be bred for appearance. But, that is not the tenet of the world. So, I guess what I am saying, is that when we post disparaging remarks about other's dogs, regardless of their lineage/type, that we think long and hard about the others who do not commit to this dogma, and perhaps attenuate the vitriol. Sometimes when you truly get to KNOW the "enemy", you realize that you are not really all that different. In keeping conversation civil, and without insult (either direct or implied), much more can be said in a fruitful manner. The internet can be a good, or a negative tool. One cannot change the opinions of one who does not want to listen, but if one takes the time to hear, without prejudice, than minds can be open.

Okay, sorry for this soliloquy...

Julie

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Hey y'all, I have no idea what the sam hill happened with my post! Hope y'all understood what was mine and what was quoted!

 

Kirs, a couple weekends ago I went to a sheepdog trial. They had the top 4 dogs do a double lift. I think it is also called an international lift? Any way, a feller there had a young dog that he had just moved to open with, and he himself was just as new to open trials. He never expected his dog to be in the top spot for the double. He had never trained his dog to do it. And it did take a couple of tries to get him to do it. But the dog did and did pretty dang good. The point of all this, is that the dog had what it takes to do the job and the training to do something he didn't really have a clue about. You say there are great working ranch dogs that couldn't win, or some that couldn't finish a trial. Well, the dogs don't say, okay, the sheep have to go between these panels so I better do it. They are taking instruction from the handler. And I believe that a trial dog could handle 200 sheep. They ain't out there counting them! I am not saying all in either case. But if Jackson was running open, I would expect him to run regardless of sheep amount. And unless a ranch dog was just used to running out and gathering the sheep on their own and bringing them in, and did not know any command except maybe that'll do, no they wouldn't do well in a trial.

But the real point all comes back to breeding. And regardless of how anyone "feels" about the course of the border collie, unless work ethic and ability is continued in the line, it will disappear. And that is the real debate. Some folks on this board have rescues that they have no clue what to do with sheep. But they are loved and accepted here cuz no one is making them out to be what they aren't. If a dog is already on the ground, regardless of how it got there, no one is saying to kill it or that it is not worthy of love and care. But when they are bred for looks only, and have not shown they are capable of herding a group of sheep in the manner needed, why would you breed it? Like I said before, most of the true working/trialing dogs are as varied in looks as carter has little liver pills. But the show dogs all look basically the same. How do you account for that? How do you account for the fact that no dog that has won in conformation, has won in any open trial? Or vice versa? Looks will never determine how a dog works. Only whats in their head and heart will determine that. And, you gotta breed for one or the other.

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How do you account for the fact that no dog that has won in conformation, has won in any open trial?

 

 

Well a dog in the UK, that has won 6 Open Trials here now, John Hastie's Robbie, (work name Mirk) sired by my dog Nap, has won in conformation when he has been shown, he is mainly a trial/work dog as that is his owner's main interest but he is a good show dog too. He will be running at the Scottish National in a few weeks.

So a top quality trial dog, CAN can also be a show dog, here in the U.K. P.S. He has no Pom or sheltie breeding:))

God, I was determined NOT to get drawn into this anymore and here I go again.........

Heather Turner, Locheil Border Collies, UK

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Heather, well, I guess I should never say never. There are exceptions to EVERY rule. So, I will, as I don't know of the dog you are talking about, agree, it is possible. But, like I said before. There is nothing wrong with a dog that can work AND look good. I only said if that is the criteria to breeding, other things will be lost. You can't breed for it all, but you can breed for work ability and get what some would consider a good looking dog.

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Originally posted by AK dog doc:

[QB]

(Arnpriors, perhaps you mean "psychic"? A "physic" is a cathartic (a medicine meant to evacuate the bowels)

 

Perhaps thats exactly what she did mean :rolleyes:

 

((As for the ongoing return of those who have already been caught out in various subterfuges and masquerades... ISTM that it is THOSE people who are trying to pick a fight, not the members of this board. Why do they return? What is their vendetta? ISTM that there is some agenda there that has nothing to do with honest debate or the exchange of ideas. And perhaps the "most stupidest" [sic] thing is their recurring reappearance in new guises in the apparently vain hope that they will not be recognised.))

 

If this is in reference to me, I can say that I have never been on here under a different guise. maybe a different ID but stll Cathy. If you read my mail regarding the AOL dynamics IPs you might understand and realise that I was not George from an earlier thread or Heather in this thread (see Heathers latest IP its the same as mine again, she is also AOL.

 

If members of this board are putting down breeders and it is there for the public to read then you are going to get comeback from it. read my earlier post.

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Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

<< These guys where visiting a strange country and getting paid to judge. Do you really think they're going to say they think their dogs are trash??? >>

 

No, I don't think they would. All the UK judges I've met, with one exception, have been very polite. But neither do I think they are liars, and I think you're doing them an injustice to imply that they are. I can't see why a judge would volunteer to me, about someone else's American-bred dog, "That's a grand little dog -- that's my kind of dog -- I wish I could take him home with me" if he didn't mean it. And I've heard or overheard similar comments from UK judges on many occasions. Also, I've been to the UK many times, watched four Internationals and several Nationals as well as local trials, so I've had a good opportunity to see how your working dogs compare to ours in both quality and looks, and therefore know that your comments have no basis in fact.

Yes they are very polite, I wasn't implying, I was suggesting that they wouldn't make derogatory comments if they thought a dog was not to the standard. Im sure they do like dogs they see over there but the British are also known for their polite banter :rolleyes:

 

Will you be going to the Centenary International at Kelso in Scotland this year? It would be nice to say hello if you are.

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Originally posted by Katelynn & Gang:

I'm confused about the AOL IP address thing. I am also using AOL more then half the time.

 

Is mine the same as anyone elses, ever?

 

Katelynn

USA AOL may differ from the UK one I don't know, you would have to compare with another US user. Its so damned annoying though to be accused of being someone you are not.
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Cathy, Kirsty, Maggie, Heather and any others I may have left out,

You know how this board feels and know that not many are likely to change their minds. So I can only conclude that you came for a damn good fight, and that you must enjoy it somehow. I'm sure there are others participating from this angle that delight in a good row.

Some of the points you made are valid. Such as picking apart the dog for amusement. I admit to laughing at some of the comments. But when I put myself in the shoes of the dog's owner I think I'd be feeling a bit bruised too. However, don't show dog breeders and exhibitors face steep criticism in the ring? I know some people from the dog fancy and am apalled at the way handlers tear apart each others dogs in a particularly nasty fashion. I'm sure you must have encountered similar, so you ought be pretty tough by now. Busting in and spitting nails is no way to handle injured feelings, unless that is you just feel like having a damn good row.

 

Muddy

 

P.S. You might take comfort that our dogs really don't care about all of this. They are just glad to be with us. Give yours a pat for me.

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Okay, I posted this earlier, but it seems to have been overlooked, so I'm copying it again here.

 

You're only right about American dogs looking nothing like the dogs in the book if you mean American show border collies, who do indeed generally look like *nothing* you'd see in Mrs. Carpenter's books. Perhaps the kennel clubs in other countries are a little more open to a variety of looks compared to the AKC?
When I look at the pictures of the dogs the conformation folks have posted here, they don't look quite the same as what we see of conformation dogs in the US. So I'm wondering if this is a regional thing then. That is, I can't stand the look of most US conformation type dogs (and therefore by extension NZ type dogs) nor have I seen any AKC type conformation dogs who are also top working dogs, but if the pictures posted in this thread are any indication, ISTM that the UK show dogs aren't quite the heavy-boned, heavy-bodied, huge coated critters that pass for conformation champs in the US. And perhaps this is where some of the "disconnect" arises. I personally don't find the dogs whose pictures were posted recently to be "offensive." Nor do I think they look very much like the AKC show champions we see here. Now maybe that's because the dogs recently posted aren't in "show coats" or whatever you call it, but can anyone from the UK answer the question above about whether there are indeed regional differences and if the UK kennel club is not quite as rabid about a "cookie cutter" look amongst its show champions? I am asking this purely out of curiosity, but I think the answer may go a long way toward explaining some of the differences we have in this thread.

 

Thanks.

 

J.

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At shows here I see a fairly good variety of dogs getting placed, different coat types, ear set, not so perfect markings etc.

There are some dogs I don't like, the big heavy set ones with short muzzles and a little too much stop but I see few of these.

Most if not all of this type in my experience will have NZ lines in their pedigree.

In the main the dogs I see are just the same physical type to be seen at any trial in this country, yes you may see more white and more smooth coats at trials but on the whole the dogs are of a very similar type and I was a regular avid spectator at sheepdog trials long before I became involved in show BC's

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Thanks for the answer AlbionLass. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why Americans are so rabid against the AKC conformation standard whereas UK folks have a more relaxed attitude. Here the AKC seems to favor the NZ type dog with perfect Irish markings, heavy bone, heavy coat, tipped ears, and I think that's what sets so many of the working folk off, especially given the overarching influence AKC has over how Americans believe a particular breed should look (not to mention its dismal track record regarding the ultimate end result of some breeds, like the German shepherd).

 

Maybe understanding those "cultural" differences will help explain our "foaming at the mouth" behavior (um, very strong feelings) to those of you from across the pond when it comes to show dogs vs. working dogs, since it seems that there's much less divergence between the two in your part of the world compared to ours.

 

J.

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Heather said "i've competed at Open Sheepdog trials here in Scotland. not stupid crappy trials like you have in the States, i've spoken to lots of people, friends, who've run clinics and judged trials over in the U.S. and they've said they've never seen such a load of rubbish dogs and handlers in a lot of cases. sheep 'worrying' and harassing' in lots of cases."

 

 

Heather did not say she has actually placed in an open trial despite the fact her dog passed that rigorous test in 1994.

 

If the conformation breeders in this country want to convince us that their conformation bred dogs are worthwhile, those breeders have only to produce border collies that win our open trials (not AKC trials). Same with Heather's. Produce enough to show us Robbie/Mirk is not a one off in terms of competence and, assuming Robbie/Mirk's dam and the others are from dogs bred for the show ring, we'll believe you.

 

There are, indeed, stupid crappy trials (and dogs) in the U.S. I bet there are both in Scotland, too...tiny fields and so on. Not all of the crappy trials in the U.S. are AKC, AHBA, or ASCA although those comprise most of them. In border collie trials in this country, we have more novice levels than are available to novice dogs and/or handlers than in Britain.

 

I noticed Heather attended the AKC specialty in 2004 and handled a bitch called "Kensingtons Royal Derby at the 2005 American Border Collie Nationals" who was Best of Opposite Sex in what Heather's web page describes as "a top quality entry."

 

I wonder if Heather has only seen AKC trials on sheep in this country?

 

Has Heather talked to any of those lots of people and friends in the U.K. who come over to here judge and give clinics about trials like Woodburys, Norstogs, Swankes, and LeBar in the west; Scio and Big Willow in the Northwest; Texas trial series in January? I'm just naming a few. I could go on...the Bluegrass, Wilsons, etc.

 

As quoted above, Heather's web page touts AKC conformation border collies as "a top quality entry," then when she's pretty sure the owner of the bitch she handled but didn't win best of breed with isn't looking she feels free to describe in a post in this thread the conformation border collies over here as crap...thus conceding the point that conformation border collies in the U.S. at least are crap.

 

She apparently believes that those lots of people and friends who came over here to judge sheep dog trials and give clinics were just being polite to the Americans then ran home to arrogantly scoff. I suppose that her own hypocrisy as a conformation handler is the kind of hypocrisy that she expects from everyone and therfore projects onto them. I also suspect Heather's version of lots of people and friends is a sample of one or two based on beginner clinics that got rowdy and a couple of less than stellar trials plus her own attendance at an AKC event that included a herding trial.

 

However if Heather's use of the word "lots" is correct, it's time to rethink paying for tickets so that handlers from Britain can come over and judge and teach with false praise. From now on, I'm going to ask every British judge whether they know her. Everyone who trials should. Time to find out.

 

Penny

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Originally posted by SaxonBCs:

These boards are on public display for non members to read, I'm sure you lose a lot of prospective members justfrom reading some of the threads. Also, breeders who you slag off can read so expect some comeback from it.

 

So before you go making comments REMEMBER who could be reading the boards.

last I checked I havent made any comments for you or against you. So telling me to "remember who's reading before making comments" really doesnt apply to me. All im saying is, you came here to state your opinion. You know you arent going to get anywhere or change anyones mind. So what is the point of throwing insults around? It doesnt improve the situation or make anyone see anyone elses side.
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Been quite awhile since I've been here, and I know I'm coming in late on this thread, but can I just say....

 

I commend the folks early on, who posted pix of what a Border Collie should LOOK like. Not the physical appearance of the dog itself, but the look of the Border Collie being a Border Collie (i.e. the dog in action/at work). By the definition of some, some of the dogs in these pix had somewhat "conventional" physical appearance, while others looked quite "unconventional" by the standards of some. My point is that the pix showed, IMHO, the true definition of the Border Collie, dogs at work, on sheep, and in control.

 

Okay, time to go back into the realm of silence again.

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Good thoughts Penny.

 

This is from the AKC on the courses offered in their herding program. (Herding Test and Trial Procedural Manual)

Q. Test Classes: Livestock for the Test level should be well dog broke and accustomed to being worked by a variety of different breeds of dogs. Ducks, goats, sheep and cattle may be used for both the Herding Test Class and the Pre-Trial Class. Review Herding Regulations "Livestock."

 

1. Herding Test: This is the entry level for the majority of contestants. The arena size can be from 100 by 100 feet to 100 by 200 feet. Review Herding Regulations for specifics on equipment and lay out.

 

2. Pre-Trial: Dogs entered in this Class will be preparing to enter the Trial Classes and will be more experienced than the Herding Test entrants. The arena size shall be no less than 100 by 200 feet and no more than 200 by 400 feet. Review Herding Regulations for specifics on equipment and lay out.

 

R. Trial Courses: Livestock should be dog broke, while providing a challenge. Sheep, cattle and ducks may be used for Course A and Course B. See Herding Regulations "Livestock."

 

1. Course A: At this writing this is the most popular and frequently offered of the Trial Courses. This Trial Course is held in an arena 100 by 200 feet, up to 200 by 400 feet. Review Herding Regulations for specifics on equipment and lay out.

 

2. Course B: This is an open field Course. The minimum size of the field for sheep and cattle is 300 by 575 feet; for ducks 200 by 230 feet. Review Herding Regulations for specifics on equipment and lay out.

 

3. Course C: This is an open field course and must have sufficient space to allow for a narrow road up to 880 linear yards long. Review Herding Regulations for specifics on equipment and lay out. The only livestock used on this course are sheep. They should be accustomed to being moved to grazing areas and allowed to graze. Review Herding Regulations "Livestock."

This is from one regonal club associated with the USBCHA on their classes offered. (North East Border Collie Association)

 

Novice Novice

 

The Novice Novice Class is a designed to give inexperienced handlers a level at which to start competing with an inexperienced dog. The class is open to novice handlers with any dog that has never competed in a class higher then Novice/Novice with its current handler or Pro/Novice with any other handler. Open handlers may not compete in novice-novice.

 

The Novice Novice class shall consist of an outrun of no more than 100 yards (worth 20 points) a lift (10 points), fetch (20 points), a drive through at least one set of panels no more than 100 yards from the post (20 points), and a pen (10 points). On the drive the handler may wear, drive, or do an assisted drive at their discretion. As a guideline, judging of this phase should be based on the line of the sheep and the workmanlike manner of the dog/handler team.

 

Pro Novice

 

The Pro Novice Class shall consist of an outrun not to exceed 200 yards (20 points), a lift (10 points), fetch (20 points) and drive through at least one set of panels not more than 100 yards from the post (20 points) and a pen (10 points).

 

Ranch

 

The Ranch Class consists of a full Open course with no shed.

Mark
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For those of you who do not know the ISDS ROM requirements:

 

"Puppies over two years old will not be accepted for registration by the normal route. However, there is a scheme whereby the details of dogs of good breeding and sufficient working merit can be submitted to the Stud Book Committee for Registration on Merit (ROM). This is of interest to many people with unregistered dogs, but the process is somewhat complex and needs some explanation. It is not supposed to be an easy option for those who did not register pups at the right time.

 

Firstly, have the owner and dog ever competed in a sheepdog trial? If the answer is yes then the only route to ROM is by success in competition and an award of one first prize or two seconds or three thirds at an Open Trial, with a minimum of 25 dogs competing. This is difficult to achieve in some overseas countries. However, the Society also accepts selection for that Nation's team, for example to compete at the Continental Championship, as sufficient standard.

 

If the answer is no to any sheepdog trials experience then the route is by a Working Test. Currently, the Working Test can only be taken in the UK or Ireland, or by an ISDS Associate Club. The dog must pass a test of skill in Outrun, Lift, Fetch and Driving and general farm duties on packet of sheep at a test location nominated by the Society or Associate Club and assessed by three Directors, or one Director plus two approved Examiners if it is an Associate Club test. All Directors/Examiners must be in agreement with the result. This test is not supposed to be a sheepdog trial; it is a test of the ability of the dog to undertake typical farm work. The nature and detail of the test will thus take account of the land, surroundings and conditions. If you need a Working Test then there will be help putting you in touch with some friendly faces to gently take you through the process."

 

 

Diane

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Please could you remove my membership from this board. I find the attitudes of some members narrow minded and would rather not be tempted in future to become embroiled in the kind of pointless discussion that goes on in this forum.

I had hoped that the American attitude of 'our way is the only way and we'll fight down anyone who says otherwise' would not have pervaded the world of Border Collies but unfortunately I appear to have been mistaken

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