So sad,,,,

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmm...it seems that the boredom and insults go both ways here. Jumping in and insulting in turn isn't exactly mature behavior either, but I'm sure I'm wasting my breath. I have to wonder, though, if things just got too quiet and boring on your own list....

 

I do have to say I find it amusing that you presume to speak for "your" shepherds. I wonder what those shepherds (assuming you mean the big names like Bobby Dalziel, Derek Scrimgeour, Julie Simpson, Glyn Jones, etc.) would have to say about your comments?

 

Oh, and if you find the posters on this group to be lacking intelligence or anything useful to say, perhaps you should join some of the *other* discussions here and raise the intelligence bar a bit. But I suppose I should stop posting as by doing so I'm only feeding in to your desire to be snarky.

 

 

J.

[SaxonBCs]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

Cathy,

Why do you persist in the name calling? It simply makes you look bad, and it's likely to just get your posts deleted by the moderator. Why waste so much time and energy on a group of people you can't stand and who have different values than you?

 

J.

Excuse me! Name calling? have you not read this thread? Since February there has been name calling and belittling of breeders from the usual crowd of die-hards, some barely out of diapers who just piggy back off what others say, if the boards were properly moderated, this would not be allowed but the moderator actually takes part.

This is a herding forum, so why do you all find the need to talk about conformation the way you do.

As I said "your arrogance and ignorance really is at its worst"

[Pipedream Farm]

FYI....

 

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc. (USBCC) [the host of this forum]is dedicated to preserving the Border Collie as a working stock dog, opposing the showing, judging, and breeding of Border Collies based upon their appearance,....

Based upon this why would you expect this forum to be open to the ideals of conformation breeding and showing?

 

Mark

[SaxonBCs]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

FYI....

 

quote:

---

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc. (USBCC) [the host of this forum] is dedicated to preserving the Border Collie as a working stock dog, opposing the showing, judging, and breeding of Border Collies based upon their appearance,....

Based upon this why would you expect this forum to be open to the ideals of conformation breeding and showing?

 

Mark

Just when I think I've read the most stupidest post ever, you have to post another. I don't, and Im sure others don't expect you to be open to the ideals of conformation, so why do you repeatedly refer to it, there is no reason to. No conformation person urged this thread it was started by some herding addicted idiot suffering from diarrhoea of the mouth.

 

Please try to have some small idea of what you're talking about before you try to post again.

[Eileen Stein]

Up to now I have not deleted any posts, because I think the writings of our show visitors speak so eloquently about their nature and character that there is some value in leaving them here to be read. But we do have rules against personal insult, and so any posts hereafter that violate those rules will be deleted as soon as I conveniently can.

 

Just to be clear, discussing the subject of breeding border collies for show, whether the dogs so bred are attractive or not, and whether it is bad to breed them to look like that is discussing an issue, and is acceptable. Calling people stupid, ignorant, arrogant, pathetic, and other such vulgar abuse is personal insult, with no redeeming substantive value, and is not acceptable.

[ccnnc]

Our friend from across the pond said....

 

No conformation person urged this thread it was started by some herding addicted idiot suffering from diarrhoea of the mouth.

 

First, at least here, the proper spelling of what I assume you meant to say is diarrhea.

 

I started this thread as a sad reminder of what a particular ack conformation champion looks like. I have no idea of what our friend's dogs work or look like. Heck, for all I know, one of them might have won the International Supreme Championship!

 

Some brilliant member of this board came up with the term Barbie Collie to describe the type of dog the judges at Westminster tend to favor. This dog is certainly the visual definition of that term and sadly resembles all the Barbie Collies that the ack has "honored" with best of breed titles.

 

The sad truth is that on the "Breed Standard" page for the Barbie Collie, the dogs described could quite possibly be superb working dogs. That description seems to have fallen on deaf ears when the comformation judges evakuate -- oooops, evaluate -- the breed.

 

I have never seen a true working Border Collie that even begins to resemble this year's BOB. The photos in earlier posts on this thread are great examples of the work and the looks of the real Border Collie.

 

And, Eileen, her calling me "a herding addicted idiot" really isn't very far off the mark -- but, I do hate the term "herding"!

 

CCnNC

[Journey]

The topic heading said a lot. Ironically, what's even worse, is that someone bothered to post a picture, then the "picture" was attacked. So sad that no one bothered to read the web site. Picking on a breeder is one thing, but geez, why get off picking on a beloved pet that just died?

 

Karen

[BeezSK]

I thought this was a fairly straight forward thing upon getting involved with Border Collies. Breeding for herding ability keeps that ability alive in the breed. Breeding for looks will degrade this instinct since things like whether the dog is fluffy, a certain height, has feathers, ears are a certain way etc. are more important than whether the dog has a good outrun, balance, etc.

Factually this would make sense to a reasonable person of reasonable intelligence and education (I beleive they teach Darwin in highschool science classes now?), just get past the fact that "people made fun of my dog... waaaaaaaaaaa" and I'm sure you'll see it too.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

1) This isn't a "herding" forum. Most of us are actually not livestock managers, though there's a strong core that are. This is a forum maintained by the United States Border Collie Club, the central philosphy of which can be summed up with the following statement from Eileen's sticky READ THIS FIRST

 

For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability.

You won't find much support for other views here - it's not personal - well, it's not supposed to be. If I say I think a dog looks like a cross between a Pomeranian and a Sheltie it's because that's what I think the dog looks like. You can't control my subjective view of your dog, any more than you ought to take offence if I were from Pakistan and couldn't appreciate your Western style music that only used whole tones.

 

You might instead have pointed out the fact that I was focusing on how the dog looked, which is actually inconsistent with my views on this subject. That would have been quite true. I believe my feeling on the looks of the dog reflect my uneasiness that the short legs will get shorter, the backs longer, the heads bigger and more neonatal, as I've seen the trend over the last 15 years or so, and longer than that if I go back and look at pictures.

 

2) American dogs are British dogs, period. There's no real difference between them, the rate of imports is so high. Do not dare to say, either, that what is being imported is low quality or "culls", as this is not true and never has been true. Throughout the history of the breed, hill shepherds have parted with regret with their top dogs, to put food on the table for their families. The rolls of the ABCA and the ISDS share so much in common that there is now a reciprocal registration protocol agreement between them.

 

3) Please do not come here and say, "Our shepherds say this or that", as if we never talk to these people either, as if they never come here, as if there's no such things as telephones and internet and you all have exclusive rights to personal knowlege with British breeders (or other overseas breed experts).

 

Thank you very much, I had a young dog that two different Supreme winner handlers made offers for, on different occaisions. And he was a slick coated, black and tan, ugly little thing with mismatched ears. He took rather after that horrible American bred dog in his pedigree, oh, what was his name, oh yes, Whitehope Nap. He got his mismatched ears - and probably his brilliance on stubborn sheep - from his g-grandsire, another of those rotten, useless American dogs, Bosworth Coon.

 

I'm sitting here thinking about it, and it's really a little creepy that you all can't stand to hear your philosophy criticized without coming over here and tearing into us en masse. What's with that, anyway? Consider carefully what Eileen's saying about how this is making your message look. It would have looked a lot better if you had inserted a dignified criticism of our little giggle party, while acknowleging our irreconcilable differences. I actually cringed, myself, when I saw the linked picture, since I got my hand slapped for that once on another board (LOL - I hadn't realized I was posting the pic rather than simply linking to it).

 

I'm sorry you have such a sore spot about how your dogs look. I guess we are used to not really caring what our dogs look like and can talk lightly about it without meaning any harm against the dog personally. I suppose it's different when your world is absolutely centered on how that dog looks to others. But please remember you can't force me to believe that your dog represents what a Border collie should be. Not all the ribbons and titles in the world would do that for me, sorry. And I will continue to feel uneasy about the direction you and others like you are taking your segment of the breed - and representing it as the be-all-end-all of the breed to the world at large.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

First, at least here, the proper spelling of what I assume you meant to say is diarrhea.

Ah, Colin, you've been caught by our friend Noah Webster, who for some reason, a couple hundred years ago decided that diarrhea was easier to spell than the mother country's perfectly consistent diarrhoea.

 

Other than that, excellent points as usual. You may now take off your "idiot" cap. I' with you on the herding thing, but we've been round about that on a thread that oddly enough had nothing to do with the people here today who think we spend all our time discussing them.

[Pipedream Farm]

Since I do not live in the country of origin of this breed, and you do; I must know nothing about the breed and you are an expert.

 

I'm curious, what happens to the instinctual breed knowledge when a Brit moves to the USA; or is this knowledge simply environmental and I too can gain this knowledge by moving across the pond?

 

Mark

[Guest KirsSchm]

My word what a good feeling it must have given to all to take a photo of a 12 year old Border collie and pull it to pieces because it is a Champion. What a boost for you own ego's

 

What makes you all think you are any better Border Collie owners because your dogs get to chase a few cattle or sheep round your quarter of land for the odd half an hour after you've finished your office jobs. Eileen you do work full time in an office don't you and find time to be the worlds best shepherd WOW.

 

Many show breeders take the time to work their dogs with sheeps. many probably see sheep just as often as your dogs do, but because they have been bred for a bit of glamour some how you all see them as inferior. A photo of a collie bearing it's teeth at cattle does not impress me one bit. Why do you all see the show Border Collie as such a threat? I believe that in England ISDS registrations still out number KC registrations per year. The working bred dog is certainly not about to die out.

 

Why can't you all learn to live and let live and enjoy what you should be enjoying your own dogs.

 

My working Border Collie is 12 years old and how I wish she looked as well as the bitch in the photograph.

[SaxonBCs]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

Really? Bobby Henderson didn't give me that impression of our dogs and handlers while I was scribing for him last fall. Johnny Wilson didn't give us that impression when he was over several years back; in fact he told a friend that her dog was the best pup he'd see out of his Spot. We're they lying or didn?t they know what they were talking about?

 

Mark

These guys where visiting a strange country and getting paid to judge. Do you really think they're going to say they think their dogs are trash???

[Katelynn & Gang]

Why does it scare the show Border Collie owners/breeders so much that a small group on the internet gives out correct information on breeding dogs for working ability versus conformation championships?

 

Is it because if this information went public maybe, just maybe, the world would understand breeding for health and things such as working (herding for the conformation owners/breeders) ability? And how important it is to bred this way and this way only keep breeds fully sound and healthy?

 

I know education is power in the right hands, I just never knew the conformation world was so outrageously scared of it! Is it really that frightening that we educate people and youth on this danger facing our amazing breed that we all admire so much for what it can do because it was bred for its ability to work rather then its ability to reproduce clones?

 

That is funny that Dice doesn?t look anything like the ole? trials dogs of the United Kingdom. I could have swear last time I peeked at my Key Dogs From the Border Collie Family (1&2) by Sheila Grew that Dice looked a awful lot like E. B. Carpenter?s Jon, a son of Bosworth Coon, just she is a tad slicker. Hummm.

 

 

Katelynn

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

No, I neither work in an office nor work full time. That's just another bizarre assumption (like the earlier comments about what American dogs are like and what American trials are like) made by someone who's in no position to know the truth of what she is asserting.

 

But what difference would it make if I did? Why do you all seem to feel the need to deal in personalities and personal insult instead of substance?

[Guest KirsSchm]

Well you were the ones who started all this. Taking photo's of show dogs from peoples websites and ripping them and their breeders to peices just because they are not to your taste. Look aroung the show forums, you wont see photo's of your dogs being trashed by people who do not know them.

 

You can all jump to each others defences on here with your we're right you're wrong attitude. There has always been a variance in type in the Border Collie, even before they hit the show scene. Why can you not get on with doing your thing and let others do theirs. There is a big enough gene pool accross the world for that to happen. Versatility is what makes the breed so special.

 

Kirs,

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

No, I don't think they would. All the UK judges I've met, with one exception, have been very polite. But neither do I think they are liars, and I think you're doing them an injustice to imply that they are. I can't see why a judge would volunteer to me, about someone else's American-bred dog, "That's a grand little dog -- that's my kind of dog -- I wish I could take him home with me" if he didn't mean it. And I've heard or overheard similar comments from UK judges on many occasions. Also, I've been to the UK many times, watched four Internationals and several Nationals as well as local trials, so I've had a good opportunity to see how your working dogs compare to ours in both quality and looks, and therefore know that your comments have no basis in fact.

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by Kirsty:

You can all jump to each others defences on here with your we're right you're wrong attitude.

Kirs,

You should know by now if you've read the previous posts the views of this board. In case you didnt see it, here it is again. BC board views If you do read this you'll see that your views and our views are not the same. If you dont like what you are reading, I'd advise you dont go to a website that promotes things you dont like. In reference to your comment "Why can you not get on with doing your thing and let others do theirs" I believe we are doing our thing. Talking about it in a setting made for this topic and views. Maybe it is you who should get on doing "your thing" because obviously this board isnt "your thing". I dont see us registering on boards with different views to argue with them, I'd suggest before you go pointing fingers you remember where you are.

[Guest KirsSchm]

I dont think anyone would dispute whether or not your dogs are good herding dogs. It is not possible for anyone to say without seeing them. I have visited trials on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

I just cannot understand the persistant need to trash other peoples choice of Border Collie, when for the most part the leave you all well alone. Do we not all deserve the same freedom of choice.

 

Kirs,

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Well, you must not have read some of the earlier posts on this thread.

 

>

 

We are at a crisis point here in the US that makes it important for us to confront this issue. I accept that those who live in a country where this is not the case may find it hard to understand. You certainly have the freedom to choose how to breed your dogs, but we have the freedom to comment on that, and to do it with reference to photos that others have posted on the World Wide Web.

[Guest KirsSchm]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

<< I dont think anyone would dispute whether or not your dogs are good herding dogs. >>

 

Well, you must not have read some of the earlier posts on this thread.

 

<< I just cannot understand the persistant need to trash other peoples choice of Border Collie, when for the most part the leave you all well alone. Do we not all deserve the same freedom of choice. >>

 

We are at a crisis point here in the US that makes it important for us to confront this issue. I accept that those who live in a country where this is not the case may find it hard to understand. You certainly have the freedom to choose how to breed your dogs, but we have the freedom to comment on that, and to do it with reference to photos that others have posted on the World Wide Web.

Then isn't it unfair to pick on a 12 year old bitch that lives on the other side of the Atlantic.

 

Kirs,

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Versatility is what makes the breed so special.

Well, no, it's actually the ability to do a certain type of work. Which ISDS trials and their overseas counterparts (USBCHA included) are attempting to help keep fresh - and which conformation breeding in no way forwards.

[Dixie_Girl]

Originally posted by Kirsty:

I dont think anyone would dispute whether or not your dogs are good herding dogs. It is not possible for anyone to say without seeing them. I have visited trials on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

I just cannot understand the persistant need to trash other peoples choice of Border Collie, when for the most part the leave you all well alone. Do we not all deserve the same freedom of choice.

 

Well, the reason would be that folks on this board do not wish for the border collie to go the way of the poodle, or the German Shepard. You can say all you want about how even though the foo foo dogs look good, they can still herd, yet they have no winnings to prove that ability, only that they can look purty. I have a commemorative callender from the 2005 world trials. 241 dogs from 21 countries competed, and not one on the callender look like a foo foo dog. But here is the crux, there is nothing in the world wrong with a champ herding/working dog looking good. Just something wrong with breeding so you get dogs looking a certain way. I think my Jackson is quite a handsome dog. And others have commented on his looks too. One old trialer made a comment when he was a young dog, to the effect of, what's that foo foo dog doing here? I could have taken offense, but Jackson hadn't shown what he can do with sheep. And he WAS the cleanest dog there! But what was I to do at the time? Get in his face and inform him, that Jackson had indeed run some sheep in a circle, thank you very much, so he MUST be a proper Border Collie?

 

Kirs,

[Dixie_Girl]

Originally posted by Kirsty:

I dont think anyone would dispute whether or not your dogs are good herding dogs. It is not possible for anyone to say without seeing them. I have visited trials on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

I just cannot understand the persistant need to trash other peoples choice of Border Collie, when for the most part the leave you all well alone. Do we not all deserve the same freedom of choice.

 

Well, the reason would be that folks on this board do not wish for the border collie to go the way of the poodle, or the German Shepard. You can say all you want about how even though the foo foo dogs look good, they can still herd, yet they have no winnings to prove that ability, only that they can look purty. I have a commemorative callender from the 2005 world trials. 241 dogs from 21 countries competed, and not one on the callender look like a foo foo dog. But here is the crux, there is nothing in the world wrong with a champ herding/working dog looking good. Just something wrong with breeding so you get dogs looking a certain way. I think my Jackson is quite a handsome dog. And others have commented on his looks too. One old trialer made a comment when he was a young dog, to the effect of, what's that foo foo dog doing here? I could have taken offense, but Jackson hadn't shown what he can do with sheep. And he WAS the cleanest dog there! But what was I to do at the time? Get in his face and inform him, that Jackson had indeed run some sheep in a circle, thank you very much, so he MUST be a proper Border Collie?

 

Kirs,

[Guest KirsSchm]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kirsty:

I dont think anyone would dispute whether or not your dogs are good herding dogs. It is not possible for anyone to say without seeing them. I have visited trials on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

I just cannot understand the persistant need to trash other peoples choice of Border Collie, when for the most part the leave you all well alone. Do we not all deserve the same freedom of choice.

 

Well, the reason would be that folks on this board do not wish for the border collie to go the way of the poodle, or the German Shepard. You can say all you want about how even though the foo foo dogs look good, they can still herd, yet they have no winnings to prove that ability, only that they can look purty. I have a commemorative callender from the 2005 world trials. 241 dogs from 21 countries competed, and not one on the callender look like a foo foo dog. But here is the crux, there is nothing in the world wrong with a champ herding/working dog looking good. Just something wrong with breeding so you get dogs looking a certain way. I think my Jackson is quite a handsome dog. And others have commented on his looks too. One old trialer made a comment when he was a young dog, to the effect of, what's that foo foo dog doing here? I could have taken offense, but Jackson hadn't shown what he can do with sheep. And he WAS the cleanest dog there! But what was I to do at the time? Get in his face and inform him, that Jackson had indeed run some sheep in a circle, thank you very much, so he MUST be a proper Border Collie?

 

Kirs,

There are many excellent herding dogs, on farms all over the world working everyday of their lives that would never win a trail, probably never even complete the course. Just as there are many winning trials dogs that would not know what to do with 200 sheep.

 

A dog does not need to compete and win a trail to be a good sheep dog.

 

Kirs,