Amish Dog Industry?

[Jodi]

Here is a link a friend of mine just sent me.

 

WARNING: Some of it is horribly graphic!!!!!!

 

This makes me sick.

 

Article

 

Jodi

[Katelynn & Gang]

You can always tell when a Border Collie is Amish bred. Most cannot work and they just look odd compared to our working dogs.

 

I?d never buy one.

 

It is sad.

 

Katelynn

[Sue R]

I generally have hearsay to base my comments on but I understand that this is one of the "dirty secrets" of a group of people who are generally admired.

 

I have lived in areas where there were both Amish and Mennonite families and it's confusing because there are Old Order (horse and buggy, dark plain clothing, beards for men, etc.) and less "restrictive" congregations in both groups.

 

The Mennonites we were acquainted with in rural western New York State were, in general, very fine husbandmen. Their dairy herds were kept extremely well. Their dogs and cats were pets and, while not living the pampered life that many of our do, were reasonably well cared for.

 

On the other hand, I have visited some Amish/Mennonite farms where livestock/animals were just another "piece of equipment" and treated worse than you would treat your lawnmower. The same went for the work horses and buggy horses on some of these farms. Buy at the auction, wear it out, sell at auction, get another...

 

I guess that, just like any other group of people, there are Amish/Mennonite folks with compassion and ethical standards, and those without. However, puppy mills/dog farms are a frequent occurance among these groups, perhaps another legacy of our government's efforts to promote the production of puppies as an addition source of revenue on farms in the earlier 20th century.

 

Since registration and pedigrees are not "approved" by some congregations (a source of "pride"), indiscriminant breeding may be even more pronounced than under other circumstances.

 

Religious tradition is no more a justification for inhumanity than any other excuse.

[sea4th]

My Dolly, who died this past February was an Amish bred dog, although her breeder wasn't a miller. There were two bitches. Dolly's AIBC pedigree had some nice dogs in it, 4 generations back, and some of her breeding was from someone who had a dog or two in Working BC's stud dog issue--not that it really impressed me, because at 10 months of age, she began to have seizures. One of the most expensive dogs I had, if you add up the vet and medication bills. Anyone else would have put her down. I just wonder how many other dogs out of these bitches are out there, or have died by euthanasia of a young age or like Dolly did, of epileptic seizures.

 

Dolly, and I'm wondering if this was because of brain damage, was a come-bye dog. She would not/could not ever change directions. She only went to the left. It just didn't click with her. My friends would kid me & said I should take her to a clinic and tell the clinician I have trouble changing directions with her---what a cruel joke that would be. Maybe if I had the spare cash, I would have. Dolly certainly was keen! Just didn't know what to do with it--or was unable.

 

I hope there is an exception to this generalization, but I view Amish breeding practices as --- if they feed it, and it's got gonads, breed it and recoup some of the money you've got in it.

 

Dolly became my poster dog for how not to buy a dog. I loved her and would never have traded my years with her. She taught me a lot. Would I go to an Amish breeder for another dog. Hell no.

[SoloRiver]

You can always tell when a Border Collie is Amish bred. Most cannot work and they just look odd compared to our working dogs.

 

Unfortunately, this is not true. When I lived in PA, I knew many Border Collies whose owners had just driven out to Lancaster for the afternoon decided to come home with a puppy. Solo is also from that area and background. I doubt he was bred to work, and he certainly has his deficiencies in that area, but there's nothing particularly horrifying about his pedigree and he's got some very good dogs close up as well as lots of very good dogs farther back. His breeding is indistinguishable from that of many working and trialing dogs.

 

Someone sold Solo's parents and grandparents to people who were not very responsible. Solo's parents have been kept on chains their entire lives and bred over and over again. Recently I was contacted by someone with a full brother who is over four years younger than Solo is. Solo has Nathan Mooney's Max, Aled Owen's Ben, ##Wisp, Wilson's Peg, and Brady's Jim (thrice) as well as classic old Pennsylvania bloodlines from Jim Shearer and Carroll Shaffner. He is not funny looking and no one would guess his background by just looking at him. There's nothing particularly unusual about him at first blush except that he's especially handsome, and he's red.

 

The sad truth is that there are some working Border Collie breeders who breed quality dogs and are not very careful about selling/placing them, and that as a community Border Collie people are not as good about guarding their lines or remaining responsible for what they produce as they could be.

 

If breeders were more responsible, if they took advantage of non-breeding registration, a large part of the puppy mill problem, and almost all of the AKC problem, would go away because none of these people would be able to get our dogs.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Sounds like you lucked out with Solo (having the lines that he does) and he lucked out with you. To bad his parents didn't get so lucky.

 

I still do not think highly of Amish bred Border collies (hard core Amish bred dogs, not our working dogs that ended up in Amish hands). I find them very different looking/moving then our daily working dogs (past and present) and I think they are not produced from the very best possible available working dogs.

 

I'm sure some Amish people out there have gotten their hands on some very nicely bred dogs but that doesn't mean much when they start breeding just to breed or as Vivki said "if they feed it, and it's got gonads, breed it and recoup some of the money you've got in it," does it?

 

JMO Don't be offended anyone, its nothing against anyone here with Amish bred dogs (if any of them can even really truly be considered Amish bred). It is just how I feel from my own experience with the dogs I know/meet/seen. I would never buy a Amish Border collie just as I would never buy a AKC Border collie.

 

Many breeders do need to be more responsible about where and who their puppies go to. If we all, as a whole, united, we could wipe out a large part of puppy mills and AKC problems. But I doubt that will happen.

 

So! All we can is do is hope for a banning of dual registered AKC dogs in ABCA. Then we can really show the world we are not playing around with our working Border collie's future.

 

Katelynn

[SoloRiver]

Katelynn,

 

I hope you didn't misread what I wrote as a recommendation for irresponsible Border Collie breeders. And I hope you've been around long enough to realize that I didn't buy Solo, but maybe you haven't been. Anyway, I won't belabor the point by reiterating his story here -- that's been done enough times already.

 

My point was that, while many Amish breeders are indeed irresponsible, and produce poorly-bred dogs who are not good examples of the Border Collie breed, the problem of irresponsible breeding and placement is hardly limited to them. Someone out there is selling Border Collies to them in the first place, and unfortunately it doesn't seem to be all that difficult for them to get a hold of dogs with decent lines. The breeders of THOSE dogs should give more of a crap than they do, but unfortunately, they obviously don't.

 

I'll point fingers as much as the next person, but we have to clean our own house as well and we shouldn't forget that.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Most puppymill people do not register AKC, Katelyn. Exclusion of dual registered dogs is a worthy goal in my opinion but not applicable to the commercial breeder issue. I believe the best short term solution to address that problem is creating a central information clearinghouse for people looking for information on what makes a responsible Border collie breeder and where to find them.

 

It's a tricky issue however since there is a fine line currently between excluding commercial and irrespnsible breeders and excluding people who maintain important lines - most often full time farmers and livestock producers.

[Barb Scott]

Our Zip is Amish bred. His mom is a working farm dog on a Amish farm. His late brother Roy (and Roy's pups) herded goats on a non-Amish farm. When we went to the USBCHA trial in Ann Arbor a few weeks ago, there were more dogs who looked like Zip (smooth coated) than I've ever seen at agility trials. Zip's parents were both ABCA REGISTERED and we had no problem getting Zip registered as well with the help of his Amish breeder (who hadn't registered the litter). Not all Amish breeders are puppy millers, just as not all puppy mills are owned by the Amish! Please be careful about generalizations.

Barb S

PS Zip is the smooth BC in my avatar

[Katelynn & Gang]

Really? Is Zip from one in Michigan then? Or another state?

 

Katelynn

[Barb Scott]

Zip's from a farm near Morley, MI.

Barb

[Sue R]

The Amish and any other group are certainly not alone in some individuals being irresponsible breeders, and there are surely compassionate and caring breeders of good working dogs among them.

 

Just an aside, in our Fundamentals of Obedience class last night (the first family dog class after puppy class) was a very small, cute Border Collie (most folks thought he was a little Sheltie, as he was so tiny). Turns out he was purchased over the web from Swa**ord in Tennesse, whose site is back up and selling pups. Although disbarred from ABCA registration for falsifying registration paperwork, he lists pups mainly as CKC (Continental Kennel Club, an outlet for "less responsible" breeders) but some are also listed as ABCA registered.

 

According to the owner, this pup was older (about 10 months), scrawny, filthy, terrified, etc., when his new owners received/picked him up. The conditions he had been kept in were abysmal, according to his obviously loving and caring owner.

 

Again, another reminder to be careful where we get our dogs/pups. We recently found out our adopted Megan has Swa**ord dogs in her lineage. I wonder if that (and several generations of "disreputable" breeding in her background) might help explain her current, mysterious health issues. We'll hopefully know more when the pathologist report comes back.

[Jodi]

How is he getting away with selling ABCA registered pups if he's been disbarred from registering with the ABCA?

[Sue R]

I have no idea. I notified Eileen and she said it would be looked into.

 

Of course, if the pups/dogs were already ABCA (maybe produced by another breeder and sold by him?), that may be a way around the restriction.

 

Take a look at the website and see if I'm reading things right. I wonder how some people can sleep at night.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I do not think he ever took down his site, even when he was first banned from registering dogs with the ABCA. He has a few "friend" breeders. One is here in MI that I know of and there are others in other states.

 

From my understanding he sells dogs for other people now and in return has his dogs registered under other's names with ABCA, maybe family too?

 

People do really have to watch where they buy dogs at and what is in their pedigrees or they might be buying something they don't really want.

 

Many of the bybs in the papers here have dogs from his lines.

 

Also wondering how some people sleep but even more so, how they wake up....

 

Katelynn

[Bill Fosher]

Sue R wrote:

Religious tradition is no more a justification for inhumanity than any other excuse.

 

Seldom have truer words been written. But let me say this as well. I would be willing to bet that for every Amish puppy mill there is a Catholic one, an Anglican one, a Baptist one, or a Jewish one, and probably one run by an agnostic, too.

 

I really hate the presumptions that people make. I heard one person claim that someone was a puppy miller because he asked people not call on Sunday. No Sunday calls, therefore he must be Amish, and therefore a puppy miller.

[Deborah and George Bowdish]

I am very interested in rescuing or purchasing a Border Collie , red, brindle or black and white .  I've rescued our last border collie 11 years ago from Glen Highland Farms, and much to our sadness we had to lay our beautiful Brody to rest a week ago due to osteo. sarcoma , bone cancer.  We are lost with out a dog in our home and on our farm.  I've been looking all over the map and some places just to far away to think of getting a BC from them.

Looking on the internet I'm pre worned is not a good place to buy a BC.

Can anyone help me locate a young BC pup to 3 years of age.

Thank you,

Debbie

[Journey]

Deborah - I sent you a  PM.

[jbridges]

consider the basis of the problem of the 'substandard breeder'.  It stems from the fact there is more demand for Border Collies than there are dogs being produced by reasonable breeders.  The gaps is filled by volume breeders who may or may not use good breeding practices.  Hollywood probably is as guilty as anything... ask the Dalmatio people - who would happily march on Disney and burn the place down.  My other breed is Kuvaszok, we were just all happy nobody went to see the second "Homeward Bound"picture which had one in it. 

I Steward dog shows and I see two breeds called Border Collies deoending if I'm working a Conformation ring or a Performance ring.   Frankly, the Conformation lines make way better pets in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GentleLake]

6 hours ago, jbridges said:

...the Conformation lines make way better pets in my opinion.

If you mean they make better pets than the sporter collies you may be right, though I'll admit I have next to zero experience with ACK border collies beyond the few minutes I've spent greeting a few at dog shows that had both conformation and agility trials. The really didn't remind me of border collies at all.

If I were purchasing (I only adopt rescues now) a border collie for a pet though, I'd still be going to a breeder of proven livestock working dogs. Part of it is political; I'd want to support a breeder producing true working dogs. But I also think they have the best temperaments. Even when my dogs were working livestock dogs they were also my pets and companions and I was very satisfied with them in that capacity.

 

 

[Michael Parkey]

The reason I like herding breeds as pets is that I like smart, active, responsive dogs!  I don't have any experience with AKC border collies (makes face) but I have been able to compare AKC and working Australian shepherds.  AKC Aussies are hairier, bigger, dumbed-down versions of the the real thing.

[GentleLake]

1 hour ago, Michael Parkey said:

AKC Aussies are hairier, bigger, dumbed-down versions of the the real thing

That's what the ACK border collies seemed like to me. Just a sort of vacant look in their eyes.

I met a couple working bred Aussies back in my livestock days. The difference between them and the pet Aussies (not yet in ACK then) was like night and day. Interestingly they tended to look pretty different too, more like border collies. Definitely less coat and not such a square build. One with very prick ears.

[SS Cressa]

I always love the expression of show border collies. It’s always such a soft expression. 

I love how individualistic working border collies are also! 

[D'Elle]

My experience with show-bred border collies is not vast, but I have fostered a few. Slow, not especially intelligent compared to my own border collies, friendly enough but really not interesting dogs at all. No zip, no fascinating personality. In other words, just a dog.I agree that they had a sort of vacant look to them. No doubt made a nice pet for the folks who adopted them, and who were not border collie people and didn't want a lively, athletic, demanding and brilliant dog, just a couch potato they could walk once a day. I fully agree with those who are angry that these dogs are called by the same breed name as the border collie I know and love.