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prosperia

sport/conformation vs. herding ability

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Originally posted by prosperia:

If we are comparing the two (AKC dog and Kat) I'd have to disagree on which one was hit with an ugly stick! :rolleyes:

I agree - gimme Kat any day over that furry icon of a dog.

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There is nothing wrong with breeding dogs for pets or conformation--- IF you have responsible homes for them and go to pains to make sure they or their offspring don't become a burden to society latter on.

 

There is EVERYTHING wrong with breeding the BREED Border Collie with that attitude.

 

Go get a different breed that isn't defined by its genetic work traits- and we'll leave you alone

Might not like what you are doing.... but its no skin off our nose.

 

 

Stay with the Border Collie breed and it is our OBLIGATION to the BREED to do everything in our powers to reform you.

We aren't just trying to be mean for the fun of it.

 

Why don't you take a second- take a deep breath-

and really read and widen your narrowed view of the fabulous breed.

 

As a BREED buyers of Border Collies should expect it to be genetically FOCUSED on the breed traits.

Good pet and "other activities" dog aren't on the radar

 

But a well bred Border Collie just happens in most cases to fit that bill too.

 

Leave the Breeding of a specific BREED of dog to the people that are capable of knowing what they are doing-- you are shortchanging your customers(wether they know it or not) and you are DEFINETLY shortchanging the genetics of the Breed .

 

You should be ASHAMED -- so insead of crying "they are being mean to me"-- "they don't understand how good I am".And time after time ineffectively trying to defend youself from the indefencable.

Why don't you wake up and get the message--- we really do understand how good you are-- and its NOT GOOD ENOUGH for this BREED.

 

 

There are exceptional breeders

 

There are adequate breeders(I fall in here)

 

There are breeders with some shortcomings- that should be overcome quickly or they should quit

 

And there are BAD breeders-- Absolutely should never breed again.

 

Make no mistake-- you have EVERY quality of a BAD BORDER COLLIE BREEDER

 

 

You want acceptance and respect for your breedings

The ONLY way you can get it is to switch Breeds-- I would move you up to just adequate then.

 

 

On the picture.... I member that place

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Not to hijack this thread, but I love seeing pictures of Kat. I think she is a very cool looking dog. Besides, her coat type is much more practical when it comes to working sheep :rolleyes:

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Quite honestly, I am surprised you say she is that old. I imagined a much younger individual.

 

Brildwn-- Just a thought, but when I am looking for a breeder I like my breeder to be passionate about their breed, willing to learn new things(which you don't seem to want to do), very educated(again, you don't seem too educated when it comes to the border collie), and polite. By polite I also mean being completely honest.

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QUOTE: From what I recall of the first discussion you had on the rescue board you had no no-breeding contract in place, although you said you were going to start using one.

 

The last 5 litters have all been on contracts and when i contacted the pups from the other two litter 1 litter of 7 and the other of 8, 12 were already fixed and the other three have since then got them fixed and provided proof from their vet to me!

 

I did not go from herding to conformation to herding. I had herding lines but am more interested in the comnformation lines. I have just decided that i would like to herd with my conformation lines! I intend to prove their worthiness of being bred! But no it will not be with just herding!

 

QUOTE:so insead of crying "they are being mean to me"

 

sorry did i forgott i said something? Because i really don't ever remember crying or wining that you were being mean to me i understand what you are trying to say. I just dont agree with it!

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What Karen said. And, I remember that place too! That was quite a flock of Border collies and the picture only shows half . . .

 

I intend to prove their worthiness of being bred! But no it will not be with just herding!
So, you chose a breed that is defined and created by a particular type of livestock working - and now you will singlehandedly decide that you can create something better than the breed that was shaped by a hundred and fifty years of trials and work in the hills? Why is "herding" not enough anymore to define the breed?

 

Are you just sick and tired of amazing canine athleticism and stamina? You don't like the overall soundness of the breed? You feel you can improve on the breed's high degree of intelligence combined in a delicate balance with just enough biddability? Maybe you hate the wash and wear coats, the good nature, the extreme people focus, the healthy gene pool, the relative longevity, the "off switch" when properly worked?

 

I'm just curious what improvement you think you can make by introducing a goal other than livestock working ability.

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Sigh... Where, oh where is that banging head :rolleyes:

 

There is not reason why the working dogs can't look like the show dogs and still be able to work!
Look in the show ring. Any show ring. Find a dog that is able to perform the job it was originally bred for. You may find one, here and there, that can do it okay but they are the exception . Maybe you've stumbled onto something that has eluded the dog world for years - but I doubt it. It is a proven fact - once you start breeding for looks, little by little brains go out the window.

 

Have you shown any dog anywhere in conformation? If so, where? Have you gotten any titles or points on any dog? If so, who and where?
Umm, even from a conformation stand point you have not yet proved any of your dogs. Yet you have already bred 7 litters??

 

And once again the question is WHY?

 

The ugly gene and the working gene is not related!
Okay, I just don't get this comment. Are you saying that real Border Collies are ugly?!

 

Obviously you have not experienced the beauty of the Border Collie. It is so much more than a perfect ear set and fluffy coat. It is the beauty of a honest to goodness worker. One that is eager to do it's job - what it was created for - and does it well. There is a feeling that comes once you've experienced it, a feeling of awe and addmiration. For the dog, for the breed, and for the shepherds that developed the breed.

 

 

It is a shame that the folks where you got your dogs from did not do breeding contracts.

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Are you just sick and tired of amazing canine athleticism and stamina? You don't like the overall soundness of the breed? You feel you can improve on the breed's high degree of intelligence combined in a delicate balance with just enough biddability? Maybe you hate the wash and wear coats, the good nature, the extreme people focus, the healthy gene pool, the relative longevity, the "off switch" when properly worked?
Rebecca, I love it!!

 

They've got it all except the ear set - as soon as they have that they'll be the perfect dog :rolleyes: :D

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The ugly gene and the working gene is not related!
Do you think this is ugly?

web page

 

I don't really have anything to add to this thread, because it's all been said before by people who have more knowledge and therefore better arguments than I do.

But I can't understand why anyone interested in conformation breeding would have to pick Border Collies!

There are already a thousand "lookalike dog breeds", so why take one of the few breeds that still have diversity and character and turn it into lookalike dog breed number thousand-and-one?

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Hey guys,

 

Let's just say a novena to St. Jude for Brilliant Dawn, her dogs, her puppy customers, her logic, and her spelling. There's certainly enough information here for anyone with an dram of sense who stumbles across this thread to understand why what she's doing is wrong for the breed. (Actually it's beyond wrong. She doesn't even know the questions to be asking, let alone the answers, so she can't exactly be wrong.)

 

At one point it crossed my mind that perhaps she was really one of us, and was just putting herself up as the poster child for everything that's wrong with BYBs so that we would have a chance to make the case against them. Unfortunately, I think that was an overly optomisitic view.

 

We're not going to change her. She's that unfortunate kind of 18-year-old who already knows everything. In my experience, it's all downhill from there.

 

The good thing, in my mind, is that she will probably be so headstrong that she will alienate herself from the show world as well. I suspect that she will breed about three or four more litters before moving on to the next breed du jour, whatever that might be. You can rest assured it will be a relatively small breed, and that she will be an instant expert on that one as well. But at least she will have caused only minor damage to the breed before she moves on to the next one.

 

Meanwhile, here's a topic to discuss. Is it a mark of a good breeder that she has taken steps to ensure that all her pups are spayed or neutered? If the litters were worth breeding, you'd think that the pups would at least be worth growing up and testing before neutering. I'll certainly agree that I'm glad that Brilliant Dawn's pups are not being bred (if she's being honest about that), but I wouldn't hold that up as the mark of a responsible breeder.

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Is it a mark of a good breeder that she has taken steps to ensure that all her pups are spayed or neutered?
That's a really good point. I never thought of that as being a red flag that one is producing for the wrong reasons. IF its true (and I doubt it - seven litters equals 49 pups or more in a year and a half - I personally placed about half that many dogs in a year in rescue and by the end of the year would have to go look at my records to refresh my memory on them all) - IF it's true, it's better than placing 49 intact low-quality pups. But to ensure this happening, this teenager would have to have a hustle equivalent to one of the contestants on Donald Trump's The Apprentice.

 

The point of an inhouse breeding should be to produce a pup for your own benefit. The question then is, what does Brilliant Dawn need a pup FOR?

 

So let's hear it - what do you DO with your dogs RIGHT NOW?

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I wouldn't go as far as a spay neuter contract

 

 

But---I think controlling the breedings of pups is necesary- WHEN they are put in the hands of someone who you do not trust to be a good breeder should they ever decide or even if you are not sure.

 

If someone had sold Dawn a dog with breeding restrictions-- we wouldn't have this mess

 

and just becasue I don't give papers out to just anybody (anymore)-- Doesn't mean that they aren't sitting in my drawer just in case I want to give them to a deserving dog and owner.

 

I have sold pups in the past- with papers to people I never envisioned as breeding the dogs

But the dogs grow up and they get stupid ideas.

 

Nope-- selling dogs with some controls is becoming a nessisity of a responsible breeder--- just to keep people like Dawn from perverting all that you have worked for.

 

 

Really the papers are NOT a bill of Sale--

They are just an official record of the dogs genetics and the owners "oath" that the information on them is true.

There is no reason for most people to ever need the papers. So why open the can of worms and give them out nilly willy.

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Good point, Killer, especially in the light of the poster on the general discussion who is having trouble getting her pup's papers. Now I'm not slamming her for wanting proof of registerability, especially if she was sold the pup with the understanding she'd get the registration (although if she has reason to be suspicious of the registerable status of her pup, she shouldn't have bought it in the first place, as that suspicion would certainly fall in the "red flag" category). But I always do wonder why people are so rabid to have those papers in hand, and I confess that my first thought, uncharitable as it may be, was that one reason is so they would have an option to breed later. That may not be the case of course, but one does wonder....

 

J.

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I think Bill's point was that it's weird to brag that every pup you've produced has ended up spayed or neutered - that it's a goal of your breeding program. I personally would hope to produce pups that would significantly add in a positive way to the gene pool AND useful workers for me and other farmers. And I won't breed until I can make a case for that - to anyone who asks.

 

There are of course pups from every litter that go to people who should be breeding. I've always thought your way very reasonable, Karen. Another option is to use the NB option on ABCA papers - then the breeder controls whether the dog can be bred (well, and the pups registered). The main thing is to be very clear to the buyer that you do care whether the dog is bred and you have standards for that - and why the buyer's situation doesn't meet those standards and under what circumstances they MIGHT down the road.

 

This way you recognise that pups live a long time and might prove their worth somewhere down the road (this is assuming a working home). And the buyer still has a reminder of the hard work you put into combining the genetics of the parents - the big reason their dog may or may not meet their expectations. With the NB notation it's basically just a record of the breeding.

 

Spay neuter contracts for any companion dog home - whether active housepet or sport competitor. I don't want to be in a position where I'm trying to convince my puppy buyers that a win of Novice Dog of the Year is NOT justification to breed.

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But I always do wonder why people are so rabid to have those papers in hand
For the vast majority of pet owners, it's pretty much the fact that the Kennel Clubs have been successful in brainwashing people that registered equals quality. And part of that is, if my dog is registered then they are breeding quality.

 

I think the big difference is in educating novice puppy buyers. First, about the existance and challenges of rescue - especially overpopulation. Then, about what makes a quality Border collie and what it takes to get to a place where you are experienced enough to identify breeding-worthy dogs.

 

Perhaps if soemone had mentored Brilliant Dawn in this way when she purchased her first pup - and sold the pup without papers or breeding rights - she wouldn't be here today as such an outstanding example of a typical backyard breeder.

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For the vast majority of pet owners, it's pretty much the fact that the Kennel Clubs have been successful in brainwashing people that registered equals quality. And part of that is, if my dog is registered then they are breeding quality.
5 years ago I equated registration with quality. Most manistream dog publication seem to promote this philosiphy.

 

When I got Missy, her former owners turned her over to me intact and with papers. I did think about possibly breeding her one day. Thankfully, one of the things I did know about BCs was that they shouldn't be bred unless they were good workers. And then as I learned more and more I began to realize all the reasons I shouldn't breed her.

 

I think the big difference is in educating novice puppy buyers. First, about the existance and challenges of rescue - especially overpopulation. Then, about what makes a quality Border collie and what it takes to get to a place where you are experienced enough to identify breeding-worthy dogs.
I couldn't agreee with this statement more. A good deal of "novices" are kind hearted, caring, and clueless. Also, when I look at working Border Collies I see a whole different culture and way of thinking as opposed to other breeds. This way of thinking is usually new to most anyone starting out with thier first BC. Especially to those who have been involved with other breeds in other venues.

 

I sometimes wonder if the reason I was able to grasp the concept of the BC culture easily was because I had sheep for years before I got a BC. I was already in love with the breed for what they could do. And having handled sheep on my own just made me more amazed of their working ability.

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CONTRACT FOR NON-BREEDING STATUS

American Border Collie Association

 

ABCA REGISTERED DOG

 

I, __________, as breeder of a dog whelped on _______, 2005, out of the Sire _______ ABC# _______ and Dam _______ ABC# _________, request that a Non-Breeding status be placed on this dog, a (male/female) to be registered to John Doe, owner of record with the American Border Collie Association, Inc. This Non-Breeding status will not allow any offspring of the above mentioned dog to be registered (with any registry). It is understood that the breeder can remove the Non-Breeding status in the future, but that it requires the signature of the breeder and original owner of the above mentioned dog.

 

Name of dog: ____________

 

ABCA No. Assigned: _______

 

Signed this ___________________ day of ______________, 20____.

 

 

_________________________________

John Doe, Breeder

 

 

I agree to the above mentioned breeding restrictions on the above referenced dog.

 

_________________________________

Jane Doe, Original owner of dog.

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The ABCA emailed this non-breeding contract to me, upon request. It is simple and easy to edit in "Word" and place names, numbers etc to the contract. The pups that I sold under this contract will never be permitted to have a litter registered, without my written consent.

 

Sorry if it looked like I bailed out on this thread. Lots happening in my personal life. But I have logged on every few days and read the thread. As a teenager, I bred all sorts of animals. Mostly poultry, cattle and goats. But these were livestock. Dogs are a bit different. Until about 10 years ago we never bred Border Collies. We acquired ours from working homes and spayed/neutered them. Dad did raise some in the late 1960's. But Jill was from two imported Scottish parents and was an excellent worker. But after Jill died we did not raise any more litters. We replaced Jill with her granddaughter and had Priss spayed.

 

I have raised two litters with Jess. But Jess is an excellent worker and a daughter of IMP Jim, "The Black Bomber". Due to a family issue I have sold Jess to a working farm in Louisiana. They are not at this time interested in breeding. Not sure if I will keep a pup from her or not. I have one male left and priced him not to sell ($700). Guess I really do want to keep him. I would have to greatly consider the thought before getting a breeding female again. There are so many great working dogs in Oklahoma. If I wanted/needed a BC from excellent working parents, I would only need to drive an hour in any direction and take my pick.

 

You can learn all you need to know about "breeding" dogs from a book. It takes experience in the pasture with working BCs to learn the Border Collie. I am 41, have had BCs since 1965, but I am no expert. Would not claim to be. I can train a BC to do my work, but not a trial. Guess what I am trying to say is, perhaps teenagers should not be breeding BCs. It is not a project. A local rancher came to me for a pup because his dog died July 4. It was 15 years old. That is nearly the age of BrillantDawn. It is hard to believe that a teenager is mature enough to breed quality working Border Collies.

 

I think that is the issue: should a teenager be breeding dogs? Katelynn obviously has some great mentors. Plus a zeal for the working abilities of the breed. You have to admire her for this. BrillantDawn is ?planning? on getting some sheep and start working her dogs. Big difference. I now have a Great Pyrenees intact female. She is AKC registered and out of working parents. After all health checks are done, I may breed her. But she has already started her guard work. She howls at the coyotes at night and parades around the pasture during the day. I shipped my other LGDs to a friend last week. Though Paprika is not mature, at age 7 months she is working. Still have a lot to go until I decide to breed or spay her. She should be near two years or two before I decide. Her breeder is mentoring me on LGDs. I also have several friends that are ?teaching? me. It takes years of experience to be a good breeder. A teenager just does not have that many years. Now if they started out in 4-H at 9 with working Border Collies, then perhaps they are. I have friend that is in his 20?s. He has bred working BCs since he was 14. But his grandfather died and left him with excellent dogs. He worked daily with his grandfather and the BCs. He will still raise a litter every few years. BrillantDawn just does not sound like she has the experience or maturity to be raising so many pups.

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Originally posted by jimahall:

CONTRACT FOR NON-BREEDING STATUS

American Border Collie Association

 

ABCA REGISTERED DOG

 

I, __________, as breeder of a dog whelped on _______, 2005, out of the Sire _______ ABC# _______ and Dam _______ ABC# _________, request that a Non-Breeding status be placed on this dog, a (male/female) to be registered to John Doe, owner of record with the American Border Collie Association, Inc. This Non-Breeding status will not allow any offspring of the above mentioned dog to be registered (with any registry). It is understood that the breeder can remove the Non-Breeding status in the future, but that it requires the signature of the breeder and original owner of the above mentioned dog.

 

Name of dog: ____________

 

ABCA No. Assigned: _______

 

Signed this ___________________ day of ______________, 20____.

 

 

_________________________________

John Doe, Breeder

 

 

I agree to the above mentioned breeding restrictions on the above referenced dog.

 

_________________________________

Jane Doe, Original owner of dog.

So Jim, Do you just mail these (completed) back to the ABCA with your puppy registration form? I was not aware that you could do that with ABCA. Great Idea! I've got someone in mind that has been looking for an "enforceable" way to do this. Thanks!

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I was "told" that this was available. so I emailed the ABCA and asked for a copy. Two days later it was in my inbox. I have placed a copy on my website and provide a copy with every sale. It is difficult to sell under this contract. So the advise I was given is to have two prices. I priced my current litter at $300 each, $200 with signed non-breeding contract. It worked well. each breeder must work out the details for themselves. But anyone can take what I posted and use it. Co-ownership is also something some use. Not sure i would want that. What if the dog bit someone due to poor handling. Both owner's of dog could be sued. I would rather restrict with the non-breeding contract than to co-own a dog.

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Originally posted by laurie etc:

So Jim, Do you just mail these (completed) back to the ABCA with your puppy registration form? I was not aware that you could do that with ABCA. Great Idea! I've got someone in mind that has been looking for an "enforceable" way to do this. Thanks! [/QB]

You have both parties sign the non-breeding contract, then mail themw ith the litter registration. Place a notaion on the restricted pup. Perhasp in the name block. The idea was not mine but someone at the ABCA. We have wonderful folks at ABCA office.

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Hi All,

 

This is what I do. If a person gets a pup from me and it is on a non-breeding contract, then when I go to register the pups I do:

 

Register the litter in my name (the new owner has picked his pup out or maybe not)

 

AND

put the non-breeding paper on the pup

 

AND

have the buyer sign a non-breeding contract ( I have a non-breeding contract and it also guarantees the pup to be of good health, works, and I get first right to get pup back at any time if it does not work out)on the pup to be sold (the first owner will be me)

 

AND

when the puppy papers come back to me, I then register the pup in the new owners name

 

AND

then the new owner gets the pup and the non-breeding ABCA papers

 

But since almost all of my pups got to working or trialing home, I have only done this contract on a couple of pups. These pups are in active homes (agility, etc) and the owners have no desire to bred them.

 

Diane

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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Brildwn:

A) i didn't say that my dogs could work because they have national champions in their ped.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Is it possible that you didn't say they could work just because you damn well know they cannot?

 

Do you know how to spell "P-E-D-I-G-R-E-E?"

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Brildwn:

QUOTE: what really happens to all those puppies that are produced by backyard breeders like yourself

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Any breeder that has produced almost as many litters as you have for sport or looks (money in other words in my book) is a backyard breeder.

 

Anyone that has produced as many puppies has you have and have had none of those puppies prove themselves to a bred able standard and have to put them all on spay/neuter contracts because of your "awesome" loving uneducated buyers (or their "awesome" uneducated breeder's breeding choices) is a full blown backyard breeder.

 

Most backyard breeders do love their dogs. But in breeding their "pets" that they love so much they are doing a great deal of harm to the breed which later rescues get to deal with.

 

Not including the outrageously annoying fact that you breed low quality border collies (border collies bred for anything other then ability is low quality to me and most others) and cannot even spell "H-E-R-D-I-N-G" correctly!

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Brildwn:

Sorry yes i have just started breeding for conformation! Although i started out with the working lines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Please do not say sorry to us. Look at the dogs you are producing and justify to them why they are being gypped out of their brains and ability. Then pull your buyers aside and say sorry to them, for they are also being gypped of the same things as the dogs.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Brildwn:

But i would like to do some herding with my conformation lins. Is that so bad?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Okay! Excuse me but what do you not UNDERSTAND in "conformation bred dogs LOSE their ABILITY to work"?!

 

I think or at least thought this board made that very clear for all level of uneducated and educated people to understand! I must have been mistaken.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Brildwn:

Yes i breed for conformation, There is no law aying that it isn't possible for me to breed nicely built dogs that can work to, is there? There is no rason why it cant be dont! Iv seen many nice built working dogs! The ugly gene and the working gene is not related! There is not reason why the working dogs can't look like the show dogs and still be able to work!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You are correct, there is no government law saying you cannot breed for conformation.

 

But there is a law of genetics saying you cannot breed for looks over ability and still get a *real* border collie.

 

I'm more then sure you've seen many MANY nicely built working dogs. This is because we must breed dogs with the ability to work plus be sound in order to get a *real* border collie! Our working dogs look correct on the field because they are CORRECT.

 

It is the dogs in the conformation rings that are incorrect.

 

When breeding for sound working dogs we do NOT put restrictions on ear sets, coat length, coat color, size, eye shape, eye color, and the over all shape of the dog.

 

When breeding for conformation all of the above traits are ten times more important then ability and that is where the problem comes in at.

 

So yes, there is a reason why working dogs cannot look like show dogs and still work. It is because the way show dogs are being built. They can no longer move, think, or stand up to the elements that true working border collies can.

 

Do you not wonder WHY these conformation people are breeding with your dogs? Or willing to let you use their dogs in your breeding program (if they are as good as you are trying to make then sound) without having health tests done on ALL of your dogs?

 

It is because they found some stupid kid with semi working lines that is willing to breed with their dogs, no questions asked because the word C-H-A-M-P-I-O-N means so much more then ability which you, Brildwn, have no means or ability to see because you do not work (and guessing) have not worked your dogs before.

 

Breeders with top notch working dogs (the best) will NOT breed to or for conformation lines! We know and have seen what conformation has done to other working breeds and do NOT want the same thing to happen with our working border collies.

 

This brings a major problem to the conformation world now that the breeders are starting to see that "their" dogs are losing so much ability that most do not even have obedience drive anymore.

 

They are actively looking for stupid/non caring people with lines that have ability to breed back to their watered down black and white dogs. They are looking for people who have no clue or don't care what a real border collie is so the word Champion sounds amazing to them.

 

Soon the conformation lines will run out, they will all be related. I've already heard and seen this happening and have talked to a few very stupid conformation people (with finished Champion dogs with ROM lines in the BCSA) who have started to talk of how they are wanting to breed with working dogs to bring the ability back into their lines.

 

Its stupid really. They breed the hell out of good looking dogs till they have made them useless and stupid! Then decide they do not want those lines anymore! So they come after ours!

 

Just leave our breed alone. We like our dogs "ugly gene" and we do not need people like you to try and change them!

 

Grrrrrrrrrr

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