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sport/conformation vs. herding ability


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Hey, I've got an idea - just fly out and bring more kits. Then turn around and hit the NAWBA Specialty in Charlotte on your way back out - it's a great chance to sample a unique genepool of imported European protection-bred and farm-bred dogs.

 

Henry K is thinking of coming out - I bet he'd let you visit his place and sample his dogs, too. It's only about 45 min away and I've got to run over and get mineral anyway.

 

Hey, you don't have anything better to do, right? :rolleyes:

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I can give you a hand with kits if you need me to Becca (unless you already have something else you need me to do). I'm at your disposal for the trial, whatever you need done. By then I should be off restriction and allowed to romp around to my heart's content. :rolleyes:

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Hey Laura C - it's in the middle of the week - did you know that? But I think Friday we'll still be doing stuff if you get off early and run over RIGHT after going home and grabbing the gang. You'd have to see whether you can get Chuck to come see, too - the "advanced" stuff will be Friday - it will be sort of like novice/pronovice and there should be some Border collies.

 

Laurie, yes, definitely bring those if you can! Though I was really hoping to talk Melanie into delivering more, rats. :rolleyes:

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Woo hoo! That would be terrific - it's Nov 2-4 - that's Wed, Thurs, Fr.

 

I can't remember whether you were there - this was that thing we were talking about at Steve's the very last time we visited last spring. When Nancy said "If pigs had wings . . ." :rolleyes:

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I'm sorry -- but not surprised -- to see that Brilliant Dawn didn't show back up to answer my questions. I was going to ask her if she ever gets quality buyers from her ad on http://www.pupcity.com/puppies-for-sale/view.asp?adid=3118 where she states:

 

"We breed border collies for temperment, companions, herding, obedience, and sometimes show quality pups are available. We have an assortment of colours available and Short haired border collies to. We believe that there is noe better dog then the border collie. We will have pups available shortly. Take a look at my website and if you are interested in a pup e-mail me your name and number and any questions you have. I will contact you and get to know you a lil then put you on my waiting list. I will then contact you when pups are available. I have all `buyers sign a puppy contract with a no breeding agreement. Certain situations are taken into consideration. For anymore information dont hesitate to contact me."

 

I'd love to know how she masters breeding for 5 different things: "temperment, companions, herding, obedience, and sometimes show quality"

 

That must be one amazing breeding program!

 

~J~

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Yes, "I" am a teenager.

 

I didn't mean anything by saying she was a teen besides the fact that maybe she was scared off.

 

When people (young/old) come to this board they should be able to learn from us but a lot of time they are scared off and I feel as though a lot do not get a chance to see our points.

 

And if they do not get a chance to see our points they more then likely wont learn anything.

 

Katelynn

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Katelynn, I think I understood your real point, and I agree with it. Brildwn first posted more than a year ago. I have always sort of assumed/hoped Brilliant Dawn was a virtual kennel (i.e., a pretend kennel that teenaged girls make up websites for, such as this one (click on the link "What is this?"), and I suspect for the most part it is.

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Perhaps I am as dense as bricks, but is your "real" point being that a teenager is incompetent to be making breeding decisions? Or a teenager is incompetent to run a business? Again, the motivation for your comment is lost on me.

 

As for being scared off by the opinions of this board, one doesn't have to be a teenager to be put off by the militant views of the small minority of the herding community represented here. Hell, I agree with most of what is said but am put off when the tone becomes snipish and arrogant. When people come to the boards, they are here to learn from each other, not to be dictated to by its most vocal participants.

 

I am sorry to express this statement because I have come to know many of you personally and know that you are kind people who are passionate about perserving the working characteristics of the border collie. However, you may need to take a step back and access the tone of your comments. Remember the old adage, "You can catch more flies with honey."

 

Wendy V

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Wendy, probably I should answer this, since Katelynn already posted what her point was, and I may or may not have misinterpreted what her "real" point was.

 

There is a wide range of abilities among teenagers. Some of them are certainly competent to make breeding decisions or to run a business (though the law will not permit those under the age of majority to enter into binding contracts); many of them are not. It is often possible to discern from what they write which category they fall into. In general, compared to older people, they have had less experience in life. Also, the teen years tend to be an age when one daydreams a lot, and when one is less able -- due to parental control and lack of financial resources -- to make those dreams a reality.

 

There are many elements in BD's website that suggest to me that this kennel is more an exercise in imagination than the "renown" and established operation it seeks to appear, and that her statements don't reflect much experience or seasoned thought. I see no need to spell those elements out -- either they are noticeable to you or they aren't. I could be wrong, but they are what influenced my interpretation of Katelynn's comment.

 

As for your taste for honey over vinegar in the board posts, given the right circumstances I enjoy both baklava and a tart vinaigrette. Except for outright flaming and insults (which I have it on good authority did occur on one thread while I was away at the finals, and which I would have stepped in to prevent had I seen it), I appreciate posts expressed in a way that reflects each poster's individual style. I believe the number of people "scared away" by forcefully expressed views is greatly exaggerated. Judging by the fact that Brildwn first posted here more than a year ago (at which time, BTW, she started a thread accusing another named breeder of being a puppy mill), I doubt she is one of them. More likely she simply hasn't posted again because she was asked questions she didn't want to answer.

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Yes, I believe I got Katelynn's point as well. Though I believe it was rude to say such a thing, this person(whether a teenager or not) obviously doesn't appear to be very intelligent. Her spelling. her lack of thought, and her "breeding practices", and breeding advertisements all seem to lack intelligence.

 

On the note of being scared off: Although I do believe there are a lot of great people here, I know that probably half of them(if not more) can get pretty vicious when it comes to their opinions and beliefs. Despite that, I think if I were to meet them in real life, I'd note a difference. Most people while online are more "brave". I know if you were to talk to me in person I'd seem more shy, self consious, and quiet, but get me debating over a topic that I feel strongly about while on the internet and some things just come out wrong and much harsher than they were intended. I don't think that makes me, or them, a bad person, but a person that may be passionate about dogs and also a person that may not choose their words as carefully.

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Originally posted by Kate, Dice, and Cue.:

Yes, "I" am a teenager.

 

I didn't mean anything by saying she was a teen besides the fact that maybe she was scared off.

 

When people (young/old) come to this board they should be able to learn from us but a lot of time they are scared off and I feel as though a lot do not get a chance to see our points.

 

And if they do not get a chance to see our points they more then likely wont learn anything.

 

Katelynn

OK - now I'm confused... this was NOT the post Katelynn posted originally, was it? What happened to the part about breeding "Dice" to the two dogs? From that post and Katelynn's previous posts, Dice has had 2 litters back to back - or was that just a teenager's "virtual dog breeding"?

I'm not trying to start an argument, but when I read posts in the morning, and then they are gone by afternoon, my feeble mind gets a little befuddled...

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Same here, Laurie. At least if folks are going to completely change their posts, they should do the courtesy of noting they have done it so that any replies that follow don't appear to be complete non sequiturs.

 

I suppose Katelynn realized what she posted didn't exactly make her look like the most responsible breeder either, and you know what they say about people in glass houses or pots calling kettles....

 

J.

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I am wondering about the breeding program Katelynn has also. I don't put her in the same category with BD, however, I haven't solidified my position on her breeding program either.

Caroline

Care to comment Katelynn?

Of course you don't have to care what I think of your breeding your dog. I am curious more than anything to know how you decided to breed and why?

Thanks!

Caroline

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Eileen , maybe I am wrong, but on another Border collie board Brildwn has posted pictures of herself with all those dogs and puppies she says she has bred. I am not sure this is a made up kennel, but rather a poorly planned and run breeding program. I don't think she posts here because too many people will call her out on it, where as the other board people tend to be nicer and not start fights or point to the errors in her ways as much.

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Wow.

 

Yes, I did post that I had had two litters. But once reading over Wendy?s post once again I realized that what I thought she wrote wasn?t really what she wrote and asked. So I took down the post because it had nothing to do with the reply she was looking for??. It was nothing more, nothing less. There is no ?dirty? reason I removed it. I have nothing to hide, which it seems a few now would like to assume.

 

Anyway, yes, my family has had two litters of ABCA working puppies.

 

Cue, my oldest male, is out of my own Dice and is sired by Jeanne Weaver?s Don. Jeanne Weaver also has a red female from this breeding. All of the pups went into working homes with experienced owners/handlers.

 

The two pups I have now are out of Dice and are sired by Jeanne Weaver?s Jack. Rev is my pup and Jud is Jeanne?s.

 

Dice is OFA Good and CERF tested Normal.

 

Dice was bred because I wanted two pups to train and start trailing with next spring or so, plus I had (and still have) interested buyers. Dice is more then ?my? idea working dog, maybe not yours or the next person, but mine. I like a dog that is quick on its feet, keen, and has a head full of sense.

 

Plus she is from some of my favorite lines, her sire?s sire being from a line bred by Charles O?Reilly (O'Reilly?s Shep ABC 3417 (Pulfer?s Shep ABC 89 ISDS 112791 x A. Allen?s Fly ABC 2107) x O?Reilly?s Paige ABC 27281 (Berhow?s Nick ABC 1778 x Deanna Wilson?s Liz AIBC 65447)) and her sire?s dam is bred from Trudy Mater (Mater?s Jake ABC 24369 (Huntington?s Jack AIBC 57618 x Beere?s Gale AIBC 82657) x Mater?s Gyp ABC 22873 (Good?s BIToSCOT AIBC 41178 X Sheaffer?s Lass ABC 14520).

 

Her dam?s sire being bred by James Wilkett (Wilkett?s Brit ABC 37209 (Gordon?s Cap ISDS 165400 x Cindy Von Dette?s IMP. Peg ABC 37208) x Butler?s Casey ABC 27946 (Roe?s Rowdy ABC 12138 x Roe?s Woodland Jem ABC 13459)) Her dam?s dam was bred by Maurice and Sue Martin Checotah (Checotah?s Gus ABC 34328 (Hodges?s Pat ABC 8950 x Hollenbeck?s Mona ABC 15350) x Checotah?s Tina ABC 31554 (Daniel?s ButtersettTweed ABC 23910 x Wayland?s K.T. ABC 11471).

 

*I have other favorite lines but these lines just about cover it. Because Dice?s Dam is no longer available we looked into breeding Dice to get a dog from the same identical lines, plus more.*

 

Not including the fact that I had enough homes waiting for good solid working pups from these breedings. Actually, I didn?t have enough pups to go around. So I had to turn away buyers.

 

Do you have any more questions? Please do not hesitate to ask! I can also hand out references if anyone wants to know more about me or my dogs.

 

Thanks!

 

Katelynn

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No problem Caroline. I have answered your questionings and now ponderings of my breeding/breedings before now and will do so again if the need arises.

 

Bloodlines and breeding are something I take very seriously when it comes to my own personal dogs and breeding (I am always looking at pedigrees), even with being only a seventeen year old teenager.

 

But please, if there is anything you or anyone else needs to know to solidify your positions on the two breedings that took place with my female, please ask.

 

I do not want any lingering misunderstandings or hard feelings.

 

Thanks!

 

Katelynn

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