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prosperia

sport/conformation vs. herding ability

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Eileen!!Welcome back.

Yes, things got pretty ugly while you were away...

This all started in the gallery over a picture of some pups. An AKC breeder was clued in that her name was mentioned and her breeding practices criticized. . .things hit the fan. For a while I thought it was going to settle down into a useful discussion, but ended up turning nasty again, so I thought it was best just to delete the whole thing and start afresh.

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Hey Melanie-

 

Ya gotta admit, at least these breeds are trying to keep their instinct intact- kinda. I did say they were " hanging on to their heritage" if not excelling. Some breeds don't even pay lip service to the task the breed originated for. If you love a breed and do a sport with it (thinking agility here & other non instinctual sports) your breed might not be the fastest or the best, but it gets the job done and you collect titling legs & titles, accolades, whatever... you're satisfied. Different strokes for different folks. Guess that's why a lot of different spaniel breeds were developed for hunting way back when... - one spaniel breed for however you prefer to hunt. Fast moving spaniels for those who like drive & flash or slow moving spaniels for those that like to plod along, spaniels that range close and spaniels that range farther away, different spaniel breeds for different terrains, etc. (I imagine you know where my spaniel thoughts are coming from ... Awhhh Oscar! :rolleyes: )

 

However if a person wants to be the best in their chosen sport, they'll switch from their original breed and then they're gonna pick the breed that will get them to the top - in the sporting breeds it's field bred labs for retrieving, field bred English springers for the flushing breeds, in flyball it's the border collie for that fast flyball dog (or eek! a border/jack for a fast, small dog). We've seen this in stockdog folk too - they get interested in herding because they own a non-bc herding breed, get hooked, and the next thing ya know they have 5 border collies, a farm, a flock, a rv....

 

But we digress... losing the herding instinct of the bc is losing the essence of what makes the breed what it is, no matter what it is used for.

 

Welcome back Eileen ! :D

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Welcome back Eileen!

 

It is interesting that when Maria deleted the other thread and started this one the conformation folks left. Many of them joined and posted only on that thread. But Maria took care of the problem by starting the discussion on this thread. Seems it was not important enough for them to stay around.

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IS it AKC that sets the standard or the border collie club?As for Aussies its very hard to find one thats not messed up. Is ASCA any better than AKC .

Bob H

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I have to agree with the aussie thing. My Kelsey was great, but my ex roommate's....left a lot to be desired.

 

She was pleased with him though *shrug*

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Im not sure about there but here the parent clubs have to set up a standard. That is why the CKC dosen't recognize the border collie becasue the parent club refuses to give them a standard and the CKC refuses to recognize a breed for everything but conformation. They say that if they recognize them it will be for everything including conformation!

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Well you guys just stick to your guns and set the example for good sense.

 

Maria,

 

They know what our position is and they don't want to hear it. I'm a convert of the conformation clan on just about all breeds except those that are bred strictly as companions (most toy breeds). How they don't see the difference in what they breed and what the working BC is beyond me.

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Brildwn - Was there something you'd like to add? Why button your lip? Like it says on your website ...

 

"IMPORTANT NOTE: Every one has their own oppinion about border collies. Some say they should not be shown and some believe other wise. It is important to realize that we are all here because of our fondness of this wonderful breed and we should all remember that our actions affect the breed now and in the future. Personaly I believe that if your border collie can heard and you want to show him/her (only if they are suffeciently able to do what it was bread to do which is heard) then go ahead. This is my oppinion and I hope that you all respect it as I will do to yours! You will see much contriversy about this topic!"

 

Do you show in conformation? Do you work your dogs on livestock? I see you also breed ... Can you fill us in about your breeding program a bit and the accomplishments of the dogs you've bred, and how their pups have turned out?

 

Jodi

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The one thing that drives me crazy are all these websites with so many misspelled words, it can drive one crazy...

 

BC's should not be bred for conformation or sport. They should be bred for their herding ability. Unfortunately, I am a hyprocrit since I do own a sport bred borderjack. Like I have said in the past, it was a week moment and I should not have bought him.

 

People are going to keep breeding what they want, how they want and when they want. All we can ask is that these folks are responsible about it and find appropriate homes. Hats off to the breeders out there that also rescue and foster. Many more should follow suit and do it because they want to and not because it makes them look good.

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Originally posted by 2 Devils:

The one thing that drives me crazy are all these websites with so many misspelled words, ...

 

...a week moment

:rolleyes:

 

(I know, a post to a thread is perhaps more ephemeral and maybe not intended as much for public consumption as a web site, but it still struck me as funny.)

 

J.

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What can I say - I am at work and can't use spell check...

 

So it should say weak - and I know Laura S. will get me for that one. She always catches my goofs...

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Originally posted by laurie etc:

"brildwn" was on this list a while back with a different user name - can't remember what it was...but i remember the website...

The website seems to be gone for "Brilliant Dawn Border Collies". So are the previous postings and threads from this individual.

 

A google search shows this person selling pups through "PupCity - Your Breeder Connection". I will leave others to draw their own conclusions.

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OH! I thought those spelling errors were on purpose - to be funny! Sheesh. Well, it WAS pretty funny . . .

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Originally posted by Deb Mickey:

I understand there are still some *complete* breeds out there - the Belgian Tervern and the Flatcoated Retriever are also hanging on to their heritage while pursuing other goals.

Actually the working of the Belgian has really transferred over to protection work, and all the breed books that I have seen on the Belgian, including those from Europe, when they discuss the working traits and testing, it's all protection work. Very few ever mention the herding part. When they rebuilt the different types of Belgians after WWII, the focus was primarily on protection work. Very few are breeding for herding ability - they are breeding for protection work.

 

Friends of mine have had Belgians for many years, and in looking at all the kennels they research, particularly in Europe, and reading all their breed books, etc., maintaning the working ability of the Belgians is always referring to protection work, actually to the point I asked them why the breed remains in the herding group - shouldn't it be in the working group with the Rotties, Dobermans, etc.

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>

 

AKC says that its designated parent club sets the standard for each breed, subject to AKC approval. However, when AKC recognized the border collie it did not choose to designate a parent club, and instead set the standard itself. More than a year and a half later, after a fawning contest between the Border Collie Society of America and the now-defunct American Border Collie Alliance, AKC designated the BCSA as parent club for the border collie, and now the BCSA has the same standing to set the standard (subject to AKC approval) as other parent clubs.

 

>

 

I don't know if it is, at this point. It would take an Aussie person to answer that. ASCA certainly started out trying to keep its distance from AKC (it's not the Aussie parent club, as I'm sure you know), but the damage done by an 800-lb gorilla throwing its weight around can spread pretty far. And of course ASCA was tainted by conformation showing even before AKC made its move on the Aussie.

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North of 49.

 

You are speaking of Belgian Malinois- yes?

The Belgian Tervuren was once bred of the same stock but is now a much different dog and most specimens I've met personally (Tervs) are not suitable for much. The shoulders have been bred so straight that the dogs are not nearly as athletic as a Mal and although they are "on", they are about as "on" as a setter or a Flat Coat. Malinois on the other hand are "on" and biddable, although generally need strong leadership- they are the smallest of the Belgian Shepherds but the most athletic of them all. Their intensity for work can be seen in dogs like the Border Collie. Once again, though I would not want a conformation bred Malinois either.

 

Edit to add: I have seen a Terv herd and it looked more like he was going out for fast food with the handler REALLY having to handle him-for the safety of the sheep. Finished Ch and Ex agility dog - Pretty but "ok" at agility IMO.

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The Tervs I've seen were more like Rough Collies, but they were all from the same line and trained by the same person, so that might have something to do with it. I'll get a chance to see an unrelated youngster in an early stage of training Monday so I'm looking forward to that. I've always had an insatiable fascination with "other" breeds though they'll never eclipse the Border collies in my heart or in their usefulness here (unless something awful happens to the breed!).

 

Sort of interesting, the North American Working Bouvier Association (the people doing the trial here in a few weeks) is addressing this exact point - trying to "bring back" the breed from being a strict show type. At least that's how I understand it. As far as I know, they are the only herding breed out there that is trying to back engineer instinct into the breed. They are not an AKC affiliated club but they do still do conformation - FCI affiliated.

 

There is certainly a recognition growing in many circles that if you want a dog that works in any capacity, you must breed from dogs that work to that level in that capacity, not just trust to a kennel club "group" label or even instinct tests.

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Hey Becca --

 

Would you mind publicizing the genetics study at the Bouv thing? I can send you more kits.

 

Re: Belgians -- as far as I know, only the Mals are popular for any kind of real work. The coated varieties (Tervs, Groens) are primarily conformation dogs and the wire-coated variety (Laekenois -- which I may have misspelled) are so rare I have no idea what they are used for.

 

I have seen one Terv work sheep that was actually VERY nice right off the bat, kept his distance, excellent balance, he was definitely working them.

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Oh, change that, I've seen another Terv work. He was pretty nice (she?). Again, like a rough collie but some of them are not bad either, if you don't want a Border collie. :rolleyes: I understand that circling is definitely a special joy of Tervs, according to the lady I know who breeds and trains them for farm work.

 

Yes, I'll definitely have the kits out. If I can draft someone to man a table, I will, but I don't know yet how busy the days will be. I very much fear I will be too out of my mind to remember it myself!

 

I'll let you know if I think I'll need more kits. I've still got a bunch since I've been so farmbound. I literally haven't been anywhere since you left.

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