AKC Open registration ending

[Deacon Dog]

Good point Colin, but the lag might strengthen the case; i.e. the BCSA/AKC stated objective is to preserve working attributes, but it took 10 years of practice to prove this is a sham.

[SoloRiver]

I too have thought of the "trademark" or "brand name" infringement angle. But that would have so many repercussions in Dog World that I don't think it's feasible. Border Collies are hardly the only split breed out there. It would also require defining in legal terms exactly what a Border Collie is and I suspect that would be harder, and perhaps more restrictive, than we would like. But I am open to being convinced by a good argument.

 

There would be no way to know that Fly had bearded ancestry by looking at her papers. The AKC position requires an assumption that the registry from which papers are being accepted is a single-breed or purebred registry. Neither ABCA nor ISDS are purebred registries in the strict sense (which I believe is the sense AKC operates on), since ISDS registers Beardies and ABCA will ROM dogs.

[Black Watch Debatable]

We could try the Irish setter approach?

 

Back in the day, the AKC welcomed Irish setters registered with the Field Dog Stud Book---the registry used by people with actual, working gundogs.

 

As you all know, most gundog breeds split into two varieties ages ago. The honest-to-god upland bird dogs are registered with the FDSB (which sanctions bazillions of field trials each year) and the purdy dogs are registered with the AKC. Unfortunately, most of the Irish setter people (?Our dogs can do it all!?) stayed with the AKC until the breed was all but ruined.

 

A few gundog stalwarts set out to restore the red setter?s hunting instincts through crosses with working English setters. The FDSB gave its blessing to these efforts. The AKC, predictably, had apoplexy. It didn?t help that the resulting dogs were soon cleaning up at AKC field trials.

 

The affront to breed purity was apparently too much for the AKC folks to stomach, and they slammed the door on FDSB Irish setters. The ban has been in place for decades, in spite of AKC breed club efforts to rescind it.

 

Maybe we need to bring dogs like this to the AKC?s attention:

 

Barbara Starkey's James (run by Polly Matzinger)

 

(Please, please, please let this dog be ABCA registered...)

 

 

Luisa

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Luisa,

 

That picture of Christine's is very compelling indeed. I have all my fingers & toes crossed that James is registered too. I say we could find a way to get our dogs excluded if dogs like James are registered with ABCA. I'd never finger that dog on looks for a working sheepdog. In fact my eyes are saying that everything about that dog in that picture looks like a BC with the exception of his hair but it is still rather hard to believe.

[Rave]

So if you're registering a dog with the AKC, do you just have to provide the pedigree, or must you provide pictures as well? What Laurie cited above makes it sounds like no pics are needed. If someone were to try to register a dog like James, how would the AKC know what he looked like? How many dogs like James are out there? Can we ask these owners to flood the AKC with registration applications, then after the pedigrees are OK'ed, then somehow alert the AKC as to what the dogs actually look like???

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

So if you're registering a dog with the AKC, do you just have to provide the pedigree, or must you provide pictures as well? What Laurie cited above makes it sounds like no pics are needed.

here's the link for the application - and yes, 2 pictures are also required, and a copy of the registration papers/pedigree from the original registry...

 

funny - it used to cost $50 to do this, but I guess AKC wasn't getting enough registrations, so they dropped the cost to $15.

 

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ADOPEN.pdf

[SoloRiver]

The picture requirement means that James couldn't be registered, but his non-bearded littermates (of which there were several I think) could be.

 

Fly looks like any other sorta-smooth, prick-eared, black and white (with perfect Irish markings by the way) Border Collie out there. Not to mention she has, according to my agility friends, excellent structure.

 

[Rave]

So conceivably, one person could cause a big stink at AKC by attempting to register a dog like James? And an even bigger stink would be to try to register numerous "filthy mutts"? (not to offend, I mean that in an endearing anti-AKC way )

[juliepoudrier]

I just read the criteria for open registration and it says that the dog to be registered must have been born in the US or one of its territories, so both Melanie's Fly and Barb's James would be ineligible for AKC registration. And this may well be the closed loophole to guard against those beardie types imported from the UK.

 

From the registration form:

"Eligibility Criteria:

? The dog is of a breed eligible for individual registration in the American Kennel Club Stud Book, at the direction of the AKC Board of Directors (a list of eligible breeds is available on our Web site: www.akc.org/reg/open_registration.cfm)

or the dog is registered with one of the domestic registries listed in the Special Registry Services pamphlet available on our Web site: www.akc.org/rules/special_registry_services.cfm.

 

? The dog was born in the United States or one of its possessions or territories.

 

? The owner of the dog is a resident of the United States or one of its possessions or territories."

 

So, Laura, we'd have to import pregnant bitches that will produce the needed "filthy mutts."

 

J.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

I used to have a website bookmarked that had working beardies (someone here in the US who also had border collies and had imported a couple of working beardies from the UK if that rings a bell for anyone)

Julie, I bet it was Lisa Davis you were referring to (Skyland Farm). Tom Conn imported a Beardie from David Rees and Lisa bought the dog from Tom. His name is Ben and Barbara Starkey bought him from Lisa years ago. I believe Ben is the grandfather of Barbara's James. Lisa also imported a Beardie bitch named Jill, but I do not know where she is now.

 

When I first started in this sport I bought a trained dog and I was instructed by a fellow handler (who I respected at the time) to register her with the AKC so I could do those AKC herding trials. As much as I HATE to admit it... in my ignorance, I did register her (and I so regret it). The bitch I registered was imported. I had to fill out some special form and have the person I bought her from sign it, but I did register her. So, it is possible to register an imported dog (or it was anyway - the rules may have changed since then).

 

Also, I bet James is registed with the ABCA. I believe Lisa's crosses were.

[Rave]

so both Melanie's Fly and Barb's James would be ineligible for AKC registration.

 

Darn Melanie, I know this crushes you.

[juliepoudrier]

Christine,

It was indeed Lisa. Thanks for filling in that blank spot in my memory!

 

Also, I bet James is registed with the ABCA. I believe Lisa's crosses were.

Well, then we *can* pawn our mutts off on the AKC....

 

And now Melanie can stop sobbing over my saying Fly can't be AKC registered, since apparently she can be! (Since we all know that Melanie is secretly dying to do those tough AKC herding courses and get that coveted HC on Fly, tee hee. )

 

J.

[Black Watch Debatable]

So conceivably, one person could cause a big stink at AKC by attempting to register a dog like James?

We could cause a big stink simply by letting the AKC know that the ABCA registers (and permits crosses with) "bearded collies" like James.

 

Remember, the AKC denies registration to FDSB Irish setters because their bloodlines were "tainted" as a result of English setter crosses. If the ABCA registers (and allows crosses with) "bearded collies" like James, then ABCA border collie bloodlines should also be considered highly suspect--unacceptable, in fact--by the purity police at the AKC.

 

I hope so, anyway.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

Remember, the AKC denies registration to FDSB Irish setters because their bloodlines were "tainted" as a result of English setter crosses. If the ABCA registers (and allows crosses with) "bearded collies" like James, then ABCA border collie bloodlines should also be considered highly suspect--unacceptable, in fact--by the purity police at the AKC.

There is a pretty famous working Beardie named "Blue" who was bred quite a bit overseas. I am going to try to find his ISDS number and people can check to see if this dog is on their Border Collie's papers. I'm sure he is in James' or Ben's lines, so maybe someone can ask Barbara or Polly?

[SoloRiver]

Here is information I got from Teun v.d. Dool (proprietor of the fabulous http://www.bcdb.info/) when I asked him about ISDS beardies:

 

During the last 15 years only 50 dogs or so have been registered as beardies. 17 of them came out of S.Eccles' Tess 182751, mated to different dogs. Tess 182751 had Paul Turnbull's Blue 130312 as a grandfather. Blue is in many pedigrees of todays beardies.

 

Fly's bearded great-grandmother, Ceri 151753 (a Welsh dog) does not have any other beardies in her pedigree. I don't know how the bearded coat type is inherited, but it seems highly unlikely that Ceri came out of nowhere. In other words, a number of her ancestors were probably also bearded, but not recorded as such. This means that many more dogs could be "suspect," and that there would be no way for the AKC purity police to ensure that the ISDS and ABCA gene pools were beard-free.

 

Wouldn't it be a hoot if one of these AKC "versatility" kennels got a hold of a bitch bred like Fly, lined her up with one of their foofy stud dogs, and ended up with a bunch of hairy-faced puppies? I'm sure that would not go down very well in the conformation ring.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Imported dogs can be registered with the AKC. My Sheltie is imported and registered with AKC.

 

As long as they are worked and proven for breeding why not develop the bearded ABCA registered collie, even if it was only a couple of generations worth, if the AKC dropped our working dogs like hot potatos it would be worth it. I know it's against our fundamentals to breed for hair on the face even for a couple of litters but purposly drawing attention to to this could be for the greater good.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Borders and Breadies use to be breed together all the time to get nice working dogs. Still are sometimes as far as I know.

 

Isn't there a Breadie in Wiston Cap's direct pedigree?

 

I just wish AKC would leave our breed alone.

 

Katelynn

[juliepoudrier]

I talked to Polly this weekend. James is ABCA registered. So he could be AKC registered. Now if they wouldn't accept him on the basis of his looks, they probably would accept his offspring if they didn't look bearded, and then they would have beardies in their pure lines anyway....

 

J.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Hehe. I have an idea. Let me think a bit.

[jimahall]

My Jess is a smooth coat. Extreemly smooth. But she is a descedent of Turnbull's Blue ISDS 130312. Blue's daughter was mated to Turnbull's #Nap ISDS 188631, who whelped Turnbull's Don ISDS 204906. Don was owned by Rusty Manuel. Don was mated to Sue of Kitscoty ABC 21123. Sue whelped Bobby Ford's Milly ABC 92988. Milly is the dam of my Jess and whelped some really good trial dogs. Jess' littermate Molly placed 17 at the 2005 USBCHA Cattledog Finals.

 

So there are many in the ABCA out of Turnbull's beardie Blue ISDS 130312. Does anyone know how bearded Blue was? Also was he actually blue?

 

I greatly have enjoyed reading this thread.

 

Long live the AKC and its "purebred" dogs! (NOT!)

[Howdyjabo]

Just a wild idea......

 

What if ABCA came out advertising to other herding breeds telling them what it would take to ROM their dogs into ABCA.

 

The odds of any of them doing it would be slim-- but it might be enough to make AKC leary of leaving the books open.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

That would be wild. This comes up every now and then, I know, but is it really true that you can ABC ROM a dog literally registered as another breed?

[Katelynn & Gang]

I don't know. Never asked. Anyone know?

 

We could ROM some Breadies back into the lines and make it known to the AKC public that we are doing so.

 

Also, someone could call AKC Monday and see how we go about registering a imported ISDS and ABCA Breadie/BC with them? lmao Just to see what they say?

 

Any volunteers?

 

Katelynn

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Are you kidding? I'm willing to write up a press release with ABCA registered bc's of the bearded kinds pictures on them to submit to AKC registration office to the tune of "did you know that this is considered a border collie in a registry that you are accepting open reg's from?" And sign my name to it! I bet somebody calls me about it too.

[toney]

Not that I am in the least opposed to having Beardie ancestors in the genepool, but if ROMing unregistered stock (in the eyes of AKC, meaning "Mutts") is not offputting enough in itself, why would this make a difference? The most the AKC may do is come out with a rule that ROM offsring could not be registered, because they don't have a full three generation pedigree, or simply because their is no guarantee that the genes of an ROM dog (border collie or Beardie or anything else)is sufficiently "pure" to become AKC foundation stock. Personally, I'd rather have a pup off an ROM dog, since I know they have the wherewithal to get the job done and have proved it before one tough bunch of critics.