Journey Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 OK, just curious and wondering as something was said on another list, though I think the person may be simply stirring the pot. How many dogs have earned a ROM from ABCA? I know of 3. If one was earned by a "mix" so to speak is that acceptable? I thought it was so long as the dog could do the work, but now I am wondering if it isn't for unregistered BC's only. Also, supposing this "mix" was known to be a mix, owner knew parentage of said dog - is this still a valid ROM candidate and or earner? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I don't see anything in the ROM regulations that would prevent a mixed-breed dog from qualifying. I still think this is likely an urban (rural?) myth, but if the dog could pass the merit tests, I don't see why it shouldn't be registered. You can read the information for yourself at http://www.americanbordercollie.org Click on the Register on Merit link on the home page to see the regs in their entirity. It seems the directors have a fair bit of discretion -- the point of the program of course is to ensure that the best working dogs are available to the gene pool of ABCA-registered Border collies. Here's a thought ... maybe if enough people keep repeating the myth that the ABCA allows mixed-breed dogs in via ROM all the time, the AKC will realize how impure we are and will close its studbook on the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Oh Bill! You've let the cat out of the bag! Now they're on to our plot . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I don't know that it's a "myth" exactly, although I doubt that most mixed-breed dogs would be able to meet the requirements for ROM. My understanding is that both ABCA and ISDS allow dogs without pedigrees in via ROM. Some of these dogs might very well be "mixed" by kennel club standards. And then there's the fact that some dogs who ARE known mixes are acceptable to ISDS and ABCA -- the afore-discussed working Beardie crosses. Fly's got Beardie in her pedigree but since ISDS papers don't say anything about coat type on them I could easily register her with AKC as a purebred Border Collie although she isn't one by their standards. And lo and behold, I've registered my "mutt." So, while ABCA is not making a regular practice of registering mixed-breeds via ROM, it seems like a mix could be registered via ROM if it met the working requirements. At any rate, with no pedigree there's no way to say if a dog is a mix or not for sure and this seems to be what AKC types would be most upset about. I guess the answer to the original question is, how do you define "mixed-breed?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Boyder Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 A Pedigree is registered with a breed regulatory body. A pedigree usually refers to a line of purebred dogs, but it can have outcrosses to improve certain characteristics e.g Herding ability. Purebreds dogs have only individuals of the same breed in its family tree, with no outcrossings. A Mixed Breed dog can have a Pedigree, but will not be Purebred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 I think Melanie is right that the question is how you define mixed breed. To kennel clubs, anything that isn't a purebred member of one of its recognized breeds is called a mix. And of course she's right that we do have outcrosses in the Border collie breed, so I suppose by definition our ROM program has made us a mongrel registry. There is, however, a requirement that the parentage of the dog seeking ROM be known. Here is the relevant part: I. All of these conditions must be met: A. A pedigree of the dog should be supplied to the Secretary, giving all details available on the sire and dam, including registration numbers when available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 There is no requirement in the ABCA ROM rules that the dog be a "purebred" border collie. The superior working ability that must be demonstrated would no doubt exclude non-border collies except in very rare cases, but the rules do not exclude them. As I understand the pedigree requirement, it doesn't mean that the parents of the dog seeking ROM must be known. It just means that the applicant must provide a pedigree that would be used as the dog's pedigree after the dog is registered (should the dog be accepted for ROM). All information known about parentage must be included on the pedigree, but "Unknown" is often going to be in a lot of the boxes, and I don't think a dog would be disqualified if "Unknown" was the listing for a parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted August 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 OK, thanks for the thoughts. I guess in this instance, unless the breeder said "unknown" on a pedigree, that a ACD-Border Collie cross was (if it's not a myth) registered on ROM. Makes me question ethics of said breeder if they "knew" the dog was a cross but hey, if it can work, let it earn it's regisrty. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Well, that particular one is a myth. There was no ACD/BC cross registered on merit by the ABCA 8-10 years ago. I've heard the rumor, don't know who's spreading it, but there's no such dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Maybe people thought Wilson's Roy LOOKED like a cattle dog cross. Which he did, of course. Since he not only worked like a Border Collie, but so did his pups, and grandpups, and great-grandpups, and exemplary workers at that, who cares WHAT he was? But obviously Roy had a full ISDS pedigree anyway. Becca (privileged to have a Roy great-grandson in our household and hoping for a great-grandaughter soon) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Becca (privileged to have a Roy great-grandson in our household and hoping for a great-grandaughter soon) [/QB]Hi, Becca. Your trainer has said: "Damn Roy dogs won't flank..." But I, too, am privilged to have a Roy great-grandson and a Roy son in my pack. Let us know about the gread-grandaughter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 He says a lot of stuff. He's got pretty high ideals. But he's also said Roy makes the one of the best crosses on his favorite Cap line. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by brookcove2:He says a lot of stuff. He's got pretty high ideals. But he's also said Roy makes the one of the best crosses on his favorite Cap line. Go figure. Then those Cap dogs must be good flankers, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I refuse to answer on grounds it might incriminate me. Going to the Parker's this weekend? Edit: Parkers', plural, not singular. Starting school this week is draining my brain. My runs this weekend should be quite amusing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Hi Becca, I'll be there, barring hurricane trouble (or maybe even so, if it comes up the coast, heading inland wouldn't be a bad idea). Kat is better, so hope to be running her in ranch. Jill and Twist will be running N/C. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Kat is better, so hope to be running her in ranchI'm really glad, did you ever find out what happened? I hope Kat runs, no pressure on me to try to win! yeah right! I keep forgetting to write - thanks so much for setting up the eye clinic. We discovered Doug the Dog had a non-genetic, non-disabling problem, but which could get worse if we ever let him get overheated. We'd have never known if we hadn't had the opportunity to get him checked out, since we weren't planning on breeding him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 The eye clinic was actually Debbie's idea--I just did the grunt work, such as it was, for her. I'm glad so many folks had an opportunity to have eyes checked! I took Kat to the vet on Monday as she was still quite lame and reacting to that one toe. X-rays didn't show any obvious fractures of the toe or sesamoids, so the vet thinks she probably just sprained it. I have since been told, though, that sesamoid issues may not show up on X-ray, so we'll just have to see how she fares after working on the trial field (I am not working her this week, which will make two weeks unworked before the trial, so I may be in for a wild ride! And that will be *my* excuse if things go badly....). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by brookcove2:Going to the Parker's this weekend? Edit: Parkers', plural, not singular. Starting school this week is draining my brain. My runs this weekend should be quite amusing! Since retiring Rip, all my runs have been amusing (for everyone else). Yes, I plan to be at the Parkers for more amusement. We are making progress, but I never know if it will show on the trial field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Please forgive if this has already been covered and I missed it. Someone ask me a question I was unable to answer: Can an AKC conformation champion be registered or re-registered on merit through ABCA's ROM program? Thanks, Sheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Nohting in the ROM regs would directly prohibit that. I suppose if it ever comes up, the directors would have to decide which was more important -- the ban on conformation champs or wanting to have the best working dogs in our studbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I was just looking at the ROM requirements, and it seems that you'd need to provide a video of the dog working AND three Directors need to see the dog working? Do I understand that correctly? Any ideas what "outstanding ability" means? Also, I see that pen and shed are not required, so does that mean the candidate dog could be at a Novice or Ranch level? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I think the regulations are intentionally non-specific to allow the directors latitude in making their judgments about dogs' abilities. What was outstanding in the US in 1975 would be barely passable today, for instance. I am not a director, but if I were, I would not even consider a dog that couldn't pen, shed, and single. We are talking, after all, about a program designed to allow the very best dogs into the studbook. Dogs that can run nusery or pro-novice courses are a dime a dozen. You'll also notice that in that section the other way to meet the eligibility requirement is to place in the top 10 percent of at least three open trials. (Emphasis is mine.) Bear in mind that these are the criteria to be considered for ROM. Fulfilling them as a checklist doesn't mean that the dog will be accepted. The ROM committee must approve the dog, and then 11 of 12 directors must approve it. They are not simply rubberstamping that the checklist has been fulfilled. They must all see the dog work, either in person or on videotape, and make a judgment that the dog is worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelliwic Border Collies Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Good points, thanks Bill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 There was a fairly lengthy thread recently that included some issues on ROM here Newcomers might find more answers there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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