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Doug,

I have a friend wuo is trying to obtain a ROM on her unregisterd border collie. She had to do a lot of research regarding her dog's ancestry and describe in writing her dog and his working ability. She also had to prepare a videotape of him working and he will have to be seen working in person by several ABCA directors. Only after all of those requirements have been met might ABCA agree to register him on merit. I should note that in this dog's case his sire was registered but his dam was not. The owner had to find out as much about the dam as she could and include all of that with the paperwork that went in for her dog's ROM request.

 

The point is that simply describing the dog and stating that he is a border collie is not enough. The dog has be able to work to a particular standard, and this part of the ROM cannot be circumvented. Because representatives of the ABCA have to actually see the dog working, there's little chance that a basset or any other breed could be passed off, and therefore ROMed, as a border collie.

 

Someone who actually sits on the ABCA board would have to answer the question about whether a kelpie could be registered as a border collie, but I imagine that if the dog could work well enough to to trial successfully in open or do work to a similar standard at home and on other farms* then it might well be able to be ROMed into the ABCA. But I state that without any authority, so don't quote me on it.

 

*I believe my friend had to show her dog working at multiple sites, not just on the home farm.

 

I hope that helps some.

 

Oh, and I have seen some very nice working border collies who looked very hound-like, so defining the dog by its looks just isn't practical--it has to be the work. Working border collies do vary significantly in physical looks. I think folks who are involved with the working dogs can pick out a dog as a border collie even it if doesn't match others in looks, but the general public is another story. I've been asked (repeatedly) if one of my dogs is a heeler (apparently because she has a lot of ticking and prick ears) and if another was a foxhound (I presume because of her smooth coat, ears, and tricolor), and another if he was an aussie (because he's red and border collies just don't come in red). The best observation I overheard though was from some kids on an outing at a local nature preserve. The comment? They look like wolves.... There's "a Look" and there's "looks" and the two aren't the same.

 

J.

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Re: "true to type"

 

Pulled out my old Webster's Third New International Dictionary -- lord, is that thing heavy and the type small for my poor ole eyes -- and here's what I found...

 

Type

 

"4a. qualities common to a number of individuals that serve to distinguish them as an identifiable class or kind: as (1) a set of deternimable and usually physically measureable qualities that on the average is held in common by the members of a relatively homogeneous human group (as a family, a tribe or a race) 2: the combination of characters that fits an individual or kind of individual to a particular use or function (meat type turkey) (a strong horse of draft type)..."

 

below these it does say "qualities (as of body contour and carriage) that are felt to indicate excellence in members of a group ("won the show with a beagle of superior type")"

 

I would wager that the folk who drafted the ISDS ROM rules would be much more likley to mean "works like" meaning of type than the more simple "looks like" meaning.

 

now, back to painting...

 

CCnNC

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So there ya have it karrider,

First, Condition 4. says "sheep dog/Border Collie", so does that strictly mean border collie in the traditional view? I doubt it, or they'd have just worded it "Border Collie".

Second, "true to type", hmmmmmm, from CCnNC's research above, seems open to our interpretation, and someone with lots more expertise, than you or I, needs to quantify what is meant.

Finally, not quite as self-explanatory as you thought then, eh? How's that for a floating curve ball? ROFL

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Hiya Tucks Buddy, as I said before I thought I would go to the horses mouth for clarification on wording, still waiting!!

Nevertheless the ISDS must have some ideas of how they think a BC should look or else they would not have been involved in the original standard of points .

 

I do agree though having had many BC's over the years they do come in all shapes, one of my sweetest BCs stood only 17 ins and looked very sheltie like! I have also had as part of the family white faces and split faces all of which are not acceptable for conformation but were all great dogs

Karin

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Well, I've been going through old pictures whenever I got the chance today, and haven't had as much luck as I'd hoped coming up with the pictures of the "unusual-looking" border collies. I'll keep looking. Here's one that I think would qualify, though:

 

shelbyjohnsonsross.jpg

 

This is Ross, a registered border collie belonging to Shelby Johnson of Gladys, VA.

 

I'm going to include also a dog that US sheepdog people wouldn't find particularly un-BC-looking, but a conformation/color breeder from the UK might:

 

tomwilsonsroy.jpg

 

This is Tom Wilson's Roy, a famous US dog and sire of many, many fine sheepdogs. He was imported, and was registered with both the ISDS and the ABCA. He himself wasn't registered on merit, but his mother was. Was she a "mix"? None of us know or care.

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That said, I know that a Bearded Collie, Paul Turnbull's Blue, was registered on merit by the ISDS in 1984. His descendants and other Beardies are ISDS registered and ABCA registered. And I can't do it now, but tomorrow I will try to put up pictures of a couple of ABCA registered border collies that most people would say do not look like border collies, even given the great variety of appearance found in the border collie breed.

 

 

Turnbulls Blue I believe was registered as bearded not beardie, he did not look like the typical beardie with the shaggy (OES) type of coat I believe he did have shaggy hair around his face and muzzle. Many years ago Bearded collies were used by shepherds in the UK and its not suprising that some of the bearded type appears sometimes, I have only ever seen one and he was a FDU pup, so he may well have been a mix anyway

.

Regarding the red/chocolate, looking at her I would have said mix but the tri colour is in looks like many farm dogs I have seen, nothing would really make me say he was a mix, the shortcoat is nothing unusual, especially in my area.

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Hi, Eileen.

 

When I read this

 

I'm going to include also a dog that US sheepdog people wouldn't find particularly un-BC-looking, but a conformation/color breeder from the UK might:
I hadn't yet scrolled past the photo. I thought, "That looks a lot like Rip." Then I scrolled below the photo and read that the dog in the photo is Tom Wilson's Roy. My Rip is a son of Roy.

 

You are absolutely right. We don't care if Roy's mother was a mix or not! Thanks so much for posting the photo of Roy. I recently saw a video of Tom running Roy in a Finals, many years ago. It brought tears to my eyes! Rip is almost 14 and still doing well for his age. It's great to see a photo of Roy. :cool:

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[Regarding the red/chocolate, looking at her I would have said mix but the tri colour is in looks like many farm dogs I have seen, nothing would really make me say he was a mix, the shortcoat is nothing unusual, especially in my area. [/QB]

 

 

apologies I forgot to sign my post!!

Karin

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I'd never seen a photo of Wilson's Roy though I've heard many descriptions and seen his sons and daughters. He looks just like his sire, Templeton's Moss!

 

TempletonsMoss.jpg

 

(hope I did that right)

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>

 

It wasn't the short coat that I thought would look strange to you on the tri -- more the shape of the head and the floppy ear. (I think that is what would differentiate him from Templeton's Moss's appearance as well, although I'm not sure I captured it that well in this picture.)

 

>

 

Well, he was registered by the ISDS as a border collie. Also, it goes without saying that show Bearded Collies look different from working beardies for the same reason show Border Collies look different from working border collies -- the show version has been bred to have the appearance that is rewarded in the breed ring. Form follows fashion.

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Hey, thanks for posting those pics, and your insights Eileen. I figured I may be a bit wet on some statements, but not totally all wet, altogether. Now, I can at least feel I was sorta on the right track, eh.

 

And btw, I applaud everyone involved in this discussion for how the thread has gone. We have differing factions, and we've been able to disagree without getting ugly. And I, for one, think thats pretty cool.

 

And karrider, I trust you'll let us know what you hear from the ISDS expert you are contacting, when you've heard something back?

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To Australian eyes, that red dog looks very old-style Kelpie like! (But given that in many old-style Kelpies, there was apparently some Border Collie crossed in especially by the farmers, that is not surprising, I guess.)

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>

 

Oh, I think you were totally right, Tuck's BCBuddy. I interpret "true to type" in ISDS's fourth requirement ("4. Written confirmation by a currently serving Director of the Society that the dog seeking registration is a working Sheep Dog/Border Collie and is true to type.") as referring to working style, not appearance. If "type" referred to appearance (as it does in breeds bred to an appearance standard) they could have just determined that from a photo -- they wouldn't need anyone to certify it or confirm it. But I'm not an expert on the ISDS's requirements.

 

I do know, however, that the ABCA has no requirement that the dog must "look like a border collie" or any other appearance requirement. (See http://www.americanbordercollie.org/ROM.htm for the ABCA's registration on merit requirements.) And since the ISDS now recognizes ABCA registrations, they would register the offspring of any dog registered on merit by the ABCA, no matter what it looked like.

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[

And karrider, I trust you'll let us know what you hear from the ISDS expert you are contacting, when you've heard something back? [/QB]

 

 

LOL the expert I was contacting was actually the ISDS office, and true to form they have not got back to me yet! if I do get any clarification you can be sure I will post it.

 

Eileen, the head shape and ear carriage looks perfectly acceptable to me may not fit to Australian standards or maybe USA but here in the UK you see many BC's who look similiar to the dog posted

regards Karin

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Don't wanna speak for Eileen, but I believe that is what she is saying, that the dog wouldn't fit any conformation appearance standards, and thus, there are those that might not guess it is a Border Collie, or "purebred" Border Collie, anyway. Remember, Eileen was posting those pics to show some examples of what many might view as non-traditional looking Border Collies. But yanno, I'd bet dollars to donuts that dog could give mine some hardcore lessons in herding, eh, and again, that's what this breed is all about.

 

Oh well, looks like I'm starting to ramble and speak for Eileen anyway, soooo, hope my assessment is on.

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Hey Mark....

 

"So Colin, how heavy was it?

16oz, 32oz, 48oz (1 beer, 2 beers, etc)"

 

Not there..... yet!

 

"Your friend in Merriland"

 

Geez, you've lived up there for years and you still don't know how to pronounce/spell the state's name...

 

it's Murlin, as in Bawlmer, Murlin...

 

gee, wish I had some real Murlin crab cakes, would be GREAT with the earlier mentioned liquid refreshment!

 

CCnNC

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Originally posted by Tuck's BCBuddy:

[QB] Don't wanna speak for Eileen, but I believe that is what she is saying, that the dog wouldn't fit any conformation appearance standards, and thus, there are those that might not guess it is a Border Collie, or "purebred" Border Collie, anyway. :rolleyes:

 

 

There are hundreds of BC's here in the UK that wouldn't fit conformation standards either, I suppose that is because the Australian influence is not the predominant appearance of our BC's I showed the pic to my son and daughter and they had no trouble identifying it as a BC , as I said before there are probably more BC's purchased from farms around here than from conformation breeders

Karin

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karrider,

Guess your last post makes me kinda curious, then, so I gotta ask, are you pro or con on the conformation breeding thing? I ask, as, in an earlier thread, I got a strong impression you were very much for conformation breeding. And by asking this, I'm not trying to get you crucified here, just making sure I'm not confused on your stance. Also, I'm not going to say that if your pro conformation, that makes you a bad person, in general. However, I, for one, just very much disagree with conformation breeding, and it serving any purpose for the betterment of the breed. I can only see conformation breeding eroding, though maybe slowly, the true assets of what makes this breed what it is.

Okay, nuff rambling for now....

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