Jump to content
BC Boards
Sign in to follow this  
Space_Cowgirl

AKC Ethics

Recommended Posts

For a long time I enjoyed AKC and always wanted a pure bred dog. Then I moved to rural Idaho. I have 2 BC mixes and 1 "purebred." After getting these dogs, and seeing other local dogs my opinion of AKC changed. AKC dogs are bred for appearance not function. Eventually, you get this diluted gene-pool of Show winning dogs and say "these are the best BCs in America". When in reality my 1 purebred outside could be considerd a genetically healthier and relevant dog to the breed. I don't like to see breeds like BC ruined and commercialized by organizations like AKC. One of my other BC's is 1/2 McNab. I truely hope that McNabs never become AKC recognized. Luckily, I have seen no evidence of the breed going the way of AKC. Breed dogs for work, you get better dogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Karin,

 

I think Space_Cowgirl was saying that she has one purebred Border collie and 2 mixes, one of which is 1/2 McNab.

 

Space_Cowgirl,

 

I thought that a McNab is a very close relative to a border collie. So much so that they could be considered a "line" of border collie. Is this close or am I getting names mixed up?

 

Olivia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

karrider,

Spare us the sarcasm, eh (Touche). Space_Cowgirl clearly said 2 border collie "mixes" and 1 purebred. I do believe that 1/2 border collie, 1/2 McNab qualifies the dog to be a border collie "mix", no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

McNabs were developed close to where I live in Northern CA. They are not a 'line' of border collies, they definitely have different structure - deeper, broader chest, broader head and hips, smooth coated. I've only seen the black/white ones, but there may be other coat colors.

 

Ruth n the Border Trio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by Tuck's BCBuddy:

karrider,

Spare us the sarcasm, eh (Touche). Space_Cowgirl clearly said 2 border collie "mixes" and 1 purebred. I do believe that 1/2 border collie, 1/2 McNab qualifies the dog to be a border collie "mix", no?

the sentance was as follows,

One of my other BC's is 1/2 McNab. I truely hope that McNabs never become AKC recognized. Luckily, I have seen no evidence of the breed going the way of AKC. Breed dogs for work, you get better dogs.

 

she did not say my other bc mix is half mcnab, maybe she just forgot the mix part eh

 

and BTW tucks's buddy, not sarcasm just an observation!!

Karin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh, but in an earlier sentence, she stated that she has 1 purebred and 2 mixes. Then made a statement about the purebred, followed by a statement about 1 of the other border collies. Based on this, I'd say one could easily conclude that if she has only 1 purebred, and this is one of the other border collies, it must be one of the mixes.

 

And btw karrider, my point here is to mainly ask, then, what is the point of your "observation" to the relevancy of this thread, other than to nitpick on something, as I'm guessing the views of this threads initiator didn't conform to your views. But, of course, that is strictly conjecture on my part, and I'm sure your gonna tell me I'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my point is a cross bred is not a BC and should not be referred to as such

 

That's your hang up not ours. It's a border collie if it works like a border collie. It can be registered on merit with ISDS or ABCA if it works to a border collie standard.

 

Don't you have anything better to do than troll on these boards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting point karrider, however, to sorta get back on topic, IMHO, if a border collie mixed breed can work sheep to the desired end result of the shephard, it's much more deserving of, and justified in being called a border collie, than some "purebred" AKC fluffball, that may not know the head of a sheep from its backside, let alone move'em. And before I am corrected, this is not a blanket statement of all border collie mixes, or AKC purebreds, but instead, a counterpoint to your statement that a cross bred dog should not be called a border collie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by C Denise Wall:

my point is a cross bred is not a BC and should not be referred to as such

 

That's your hang up not ours. It's a border collie if it works like a border collie. It can be registered on merit with ISDS or ABCA if it works to a border collie standard.

 

Don't you have anything better to do than troll on these boards?

Obviously not LOL and why should my questions upset you so much anyway,

now I have a question and I am genuinely interested in this, as you say anything can be registered on merit with the ISDS and the ABCA

what if the dog does not look obviously like a Border Collie, i.e. it resembles a gundog or a hound of some type does this still apply with the abca??, I am fairly sure that a dog that did not look like a collie would not be registered on merit with the ISDS if it resembled an entirely different breed I seem to remember this topic coming up on another board a while ago but can't remember the end of the thread in question

Karin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally posted by border_collie_crazy:

[QB] ah but thats the point, BCs dont "look" like anything, a dog can look nothing like how you invision a BC but that does not mean it is'nt one.

 

 

This is taken directly from the ISDS site for registration on merit, obviously the ABCA have different standards

 

REGISTRATION ON MERIT ? FULL CONDITIONS

Puppies over two years old will not be accepted for registration by the normal route. However, there is a scheme whereby the details of dogs of good breeding and sufficient working merit can be submitted to the Stud Book Committee for Registration on Merit. A file of evidence (parentage, veterinary tests, working history, recommendations) should be submitted with the fee of ?200.00 for consideration by the Stud Book Committee.

 

The applicant must be the owner of the dog and must be, or become, a member of the International Sheep Dog Society on submission of the application. The file of evidence must comprise the following:

 

1. As much history of the breeding of the dog as possible with full details of its sire and dam giving ISDS registration numbers wherever available in the pedigree. The dog to be registered must be over two years old.

 

2. Original veterinary certificates, or independently witnessed copies for the parents, confirming that the dog to be registered and both its sire and dam have, at any appropriate time, been eye tested for PRA and CEA and found to be unaffected. (ISDS registered parents will have any test results recorded on the Society files).

 

3. A sketch or colour photograph of the dog seeking registration, showing colour and markings (blank sketches are available from this office).

 

4. Written confirmation by a currently serving Director of the Society that the dog seeking registration is a working Sheep Dog/Border Collie and is true to type.

 

 

So obviously the ISDS have some idea of how the dogs should actually look??

Karin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

karrider,

Nothing in what you post suggests that the dog has to have a certain look.

I seriously doubt that submitting a pic of the dog, with markings, is to establish look, in the register by merit process, but instead, and I'm guessing, the particular dogs identification. It does NOT say, submit a pic, and if the dog looks right, it will be considered.

Nice try though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ah but thats the point, BCs dont "look" like anything,

 

Of course they do - they are a specific breed that has been developed for working stock and has a definite look to it, even though there is a wide variety of looks and build within the breed itself. They have been bred to a working standard, as opposed to a conformation standard, but they are still identifiable as a "breed".

 

I definitely know what a Border Collie is over a Beagle, Daschund, Cairn Terrirer, Polish Lowland, Greyhound, Irish Wolfhound, Shetland Sheepdog, Bull Mastiff, and all the training in the world for one of these breeds to make it work mechanically like a Border Collie is NOT going to make it a Border Collie.

 

Kelpies work very similar to a Border Collies, but I have never had one person think a Kelpie was a Border Collie, or that a Border Collie was a Kelpie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[

4. Written confirmation by a currently serving Director of the Society that the dog seeking registration is a working Sheep Dog/Border Collie and is true to type.

 

 

I think section 4 is fairly self explanatory.....

 

I don't quite see how you have managed to put a curve ball on this statement. This has however got me interested so I guess I will have to go direct to the horses mouth for an explanation on this one, good job the ISDS is in my country or my phone bill will be terrific!!

Karin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't jump all over me here but, with the wide range of physical appearance (build and coat texture) and color that can be found in Border Collies, I do think one can occasionally see a purebred Border Collie that resembles another breed in appearance.

 

But, when working, the Border Collie instinct, style, and mannerisms should be apparent. I was at a clinic this spring and met a lovely lady. On seeing her dog I asked, "Is she a Kelpie?" No, she was a purebred Border Collie. When she went to work, it was obvious that, in spite of her resemblance to a Kelpie (and the owner said she had had many folks comment on that very thing) she was all Border Collie.

 

Another dog in a class I took, looked to be a merle Border Collie. However, she was a purebred Aussie with a tail. Her owner commented that she resembled "old style" Aussies in looking more like her Border Collie forebears.

 

I think that when you are considering the several working breeds that owe much of their parentage to the Border Collie or Border Collie ancestors (Aussie, McNab, Kelpie, etc.), you may often find similarities between some purebred Border Collies and some of these Border Collie-derived working dogs.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong. (I'm ducking, already!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

karrider,

Putting a curve ball on things?

Where in this condition 4., is it saying anything about the appearance of the dog?

Are you telling me true to type means the dogs appearance?

Maybe in AKC circles, but I'm doubting that is the case here.

 

Eileen,

If your actively monitoring this thread, can you shed any light on this for us?

 

After further thought, I'm doing this edit...

 

I'm thinking it may be entirely possible that true to type may have to do with the general look of the dog, however, border collies do come in quite a wide variety of "appearances", not one set of perfect markings/colors/size. And yanno, I'm betting there are plenty of border collie mixes out there that could easily pass as a "purebred" border collie, in appearance, and vice versa purebreds that you'd swear have some mix in them. However, its still more importantly about what they do, not what they look like.

 

As someone on here used to like to say, "Beauty is as beauty does". Yall can correct me if I didn't get that quite right, eh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course they do - they are a specific breed that has been developed for working stock and has a definite look to it, even though there is a wide variety of looks and build within the breed itself. They have been bred to a working standard, as opposed to a conformation standard, but they are still identifiable as a "breed".
well ya I know that lol I probibly could have put that differnt, by they dont "look" like anything I mean they dont have a set appearence that they MUST look like to be a border collie. I hope that makes more sence lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I wasn't around earlier . . .

 

The issue of registering dogs who don't look like border collies doesn't come up very often, because your "Beagle, Daschund, Cairn Terrirer, Polish Lowland, Greyhound, Irish Wolfhound, Shetland Sheepdog, Bull Mastiff" simply cannot work to anything like the standard required for registration on merit. Realistically, there is no possibility of "training . . . one of these breeds to make it work mechanically like a Border Collie." The whole reason we are so concerned about the future of the border collie if it is bred for things other than herding ability is that you CAN'T just train dogs to do what a border collie does unless they have the necessary qualities bred into them, and breeds so far removed from border collies as the ones mentioned don't have those abilities.

 

That said, I know that a Bearded Collie, Paul Turnbull's Blue, was registered on merit by the ISDS in 1984. His descendants and other Beardies are ISDS registered and ABCA registered. And I can't do it now, but tomorrow I will try to put up pictures of a couple of ABCA registered border collies that most people would say do not look like border collies, even given the great variety of appearance found in the border collie breed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO: The Border collie is a herding dog, but a herding dog is not necessarily a Border Collie.

 

I am actually quite interested to know exactly what herding characteristics the ABCA uses to define a dog as a Border Collie. Would a herding Kelpie, Basset Hound or Cattle Dog be excluded from ABCA membership?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...