More ACK nonsense

[Rave]

Well the AKC is at it again...at their next board meeting, they're planning to actively discuss allowing mixed breeds to compete in agility (or possibly all performance events, I didn't read that closely). I know some people are all for this, but I am not one of them since I refuse to support the AKC in any way. However, it will be interesting to see what transpires. I wonder if they'll stop running those "purebreds are better" crap commercials if they do start allowing mixes to compete. I'm sure they still think purebreds are "superior" and this possible move is just about the bottom line.

 

-Laura

[juliepoudrier]

Of course it's just about the bottom line. Other organizations allow mixed breeds to compete in performance sports and so are getting a larger slice of the entry pie. By allowing mixed breeds in their performance events, the AKC probably hopes to draw competitors away from the other venues, thus further lining their own pockets. It has nothing to do with purebreds vs. mixed breds--it's all about $$. (And if those other organizations didn't exist, you could bet that the AKC wouldn't be considering this action.)

 

J.

[Rave]

Looking at the three main agility organizations, AKC really has the least to offer...fewer classes that are more expensive per class and trials that are extremely hard to get into. Most people I know doing AKC agility are in it for "breed rankings", which of course mixed breeds wouldn't be eligible for, and a possible spot on the "AKC US World Team", and FCI probably wouldn't change their purebred snobbish stance, making mixes ineligible for that as well. So while I'm sure some will go and try it out of curiousity, I have a feeling they won't completely ditch the other organizations (at least I hope not!).

[Keegan's Mom]

A little of this topic but finding the right people to discuss this with (Laura and Julie).

 

I just heard in my obedience class on Saturday that there is a woman who is breeding "smaller" BC's under 16" so they can dominate the agility ring at that levl (assuming running with shelties and other smaller breeds????). Supposedly this same person starts all her pups son sheep as she lives on a farm...I think.

 

Don't you think that the working ability of her dogs on sheep would be more important to her then winning agility trials? Why would anyone want to intentionally try to breed a smaller dog rather then breeding for the "right" reasons?

 

Your thoughts, Laura, as I know you are very familiar with the agility arena.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry to get off topic a little.

[Northof49]

I just heard in my obedience class on Saturday that there is a woman who is breeding "smaller" BC's under 16" so they can dominate the agility ring at that levl (assuming running with shelties and other smaller breeds????). Supposedly this same person starts all her pups son sheep as she lives on a farm...I think.

__________________________________________________

This has been going on for YEARS with flyball people. They want really small Border Collies, so they have have a smaller height dog but stay with an all Border Collie team.

[Bill Fosher]

Hmm ...

 

Guess I made a mistake placing Braken in a home where there are three people who adore her. I should have sold her for big bucks to a flyball crew.

 

I don't know how tall she is at the shoulders, but lots of people think she is a terrier of some sort. And now that she's two years old, I think she has finally crashed through the 27-pound barrier.

[karrider]

Here in the UK mixed breeds and dogs of recognisable breed but unknown origin have been allowed to compete at agility and obedience and working trials for more years than I care to remember, the trend is now moving away from the obedience register( this is what the KC call it) in favour of registered dogs as the foreign registies require full papers to compete abroad.

 

I do not see a problem with mixed breeds and unknown pedigree competing at shows, why should they be relegated to coach potato status!! what I do have a problem with however, is purposely breeding mixed breeds of any sort, unnecessary and unjustified IMO when there are already so many mix breeds anxiously waiting for new homes in pounds

Karin

[Northof49]

Guess I made a mistake placing Braken in a home where there are three people who adore her. I should have sold her for big bucks to a flyball crew.

 

_________________________________________________

Yes Bill, whatever were you thinking of?

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Northof49:

This has been going on for YEARS with flyball people. They want really small Border Collies, so they have have a smaller height dog but stay with an all Border Collie team.

Not really ... since the "optimum" height dog is what, 11 inches? they are less about breeding small BCs and more about breeding BC mixes that are small, but retain their speed and drive. Hence, the evil borderjack (blech! blech!).

 

Anyone who breeds for a smaller BC for flyball must be a fool, because all you end up with are Pipers (all 25 lbs of her) who are too small to get a lot of speed going, and throw higher jumps because they are too tall for real height dogs. Piper will maybe be able to break the 5 second barrier - her legs are just too small for her to compete with the big border collies in terms of speed.

 

I hear the "new" flyball mix of choice is the BC X Staffie (shudder!).

 

In AAC, smaller BCs are actually at a disadvantage because the jump in jump heights are so dramatic - Piper picks a 22" jump, and she is considerably shorter than my 20" dog who picks the same jump. But she also has to be a lot shorter to get into the 16" division. Therefore, when she debuts she'll go straight into Specials so I can drop her to 16" right away. I'm not making my 17" dog jump 22"!!

 

I'd like to see an AKC agility trial. I understand that NADAC is SUPER easy, really good for the onward-onward style dogs who just want to go.

 

RDM

[SoloRiver]

There is huge pressure to select smaller dogs who can run in lower height classes. If you care about placements, and you run in 22", you better be REALLY good because that's where all the Border Collies run. I know someone who runs BC/terrier crosses for this reason. Her dogs are really competitive against all those Shelties in the 16" class. Of course, this is not AKC.

 

In USDAA, Solo runs in the 26" class. I think he's almost 23 inches at the shoulder but he has never been officially measured -- you're only required to measure if you want to run in a lower height class. For us it's easier to just run in the higher class than go through the measuring ordeal. But anyway, there are way, way fewer Border Collies in this class so Solo is much more competitive even at the higher jump height (when we manage to finish the course, that is -- sigh). In this class he's running against GSDs and Belgians and Labrador Retrievers. You don't see people trying to breed tall Border Collies as the jump heights at the top are so high and the lower height class, 16", is a much more appealing alternative if you want to avoid the traffic jam in 22".

 

For a Border Collie to be a useful height dog for flyball, it would have to be seriously miniaturized. The demand for tiny Border Collies isn't so much for running, I don't think, but breeding. Small BC bitch x small JRT male = $$$$$$$$.

 

I've seen more Border Jacks than I care to, and most of the ones I've seen are actually very appealing dogs. If I found one in a shelter I would consider adopting it and you bet like hell I'd do flyball with it. However, the ones you see doing dog sports are a carefully selected sample. I still don't know what happens to all the ones that end up Border Collie-sized or the ones that end up in inappropriate pet homes. If I were going to genetically engineer the world's worst pet, I would cross a BC with a JRT.

 

NADAC, I don't know that I would call it super easy, but it's different. The courses are nice and flowing and there are fun games that are more entry-level, like Tunnelers. But the course times tend to be pretty tight and I know people with really skilled dogs who just are not ballistically fast and they often have problems making time although they are successful in other organizations. The USDAA trial I went to last weekend had very open, flowing courses for Starters Standard, which would have been perfectly suited for Solo had we finished them. Oh well.

[Northof49]

I know of a lot of flyball people that are trying to downsize the Border Collies. They don't seem to be interested in the crossbreeding, they are interested in producing tiny Border Collies.

 

I also get lots of calls asking if I know "so and so" in the flyball world because they are looking for a small Border Collie and that's what "so and so" are breeding for.

 

I also get people asking me if I know where to get a Border Collie under 18" because that is what they want for flyball. When I ask them if what they are really looking for is a Borderjack, they say no, a small Border Collie.

 

I just tell them that I can't help them and look somewhere else.

 

It probably varies in different areas around the Country.

[border_collie_crazy]

I have been involved in flyball for a few years now and I have nevber heard of anyone breeding small border collies :confused: we LIKE small BCs yes and if we find one with good drive we will take it yes, but flyball breedings in general are to produce the ultimate flyball dog, yes BJs are what we have right now(and they are hardly evil I personally know several and they are better temperment wise then most BC and JRTS lol) but its not the border collie these people are trying to get, its the jack, the only BC mix popular in flyball in BJs all the others bred for flyball are JACK mixes, like StaffyJacks, and what not, breeding a bunch of BC mixes for height dogs is usless all you end up with is big dogs that look halfway like BCs lol and maybe 1 in 16 will be small enugh to be a height dog lol its the jacks the people are mixing not the BCs although there ARE peoplewho do breed BC mixes for flyball height dogs but as I said it rather defeats the purpose.

[HKM's Mom]

Stephanie,

I have to disagree. You can enroll your mixed breed in almost any agility, obedience, flyball, frisbee, etc class if you want to do something with them. Titles are for "us" not for the dogs. People that train their dogs don't dump them at the shelter, people that dump pets at shelters don't train regardless of the AKC's involvement. I can't tell you how many people get a dog and start a class only to drop out when they realize it takes time and effort. Those are the people that rehome the dog when it takes effort to care for it.

I train and compete in Schutzhund, weight pull, and UKC obedience with my AB. My BC's do agility, herding for fun, and obedience. None of them, regardless of eligibility, will step foot in an AKC ring. That's not due to a hatered of the AKC, it's the principle of it. If I want to trial my AB or my deaf BC I will drive to find a UKC trial (most of which have three or four trials in a weekend), or I'll find any other agility event that supports all my dogs.

AKC has been losing obedience and agility entries for a few years. This is simply their attempt to make more money. I saw this coming when they developed the CGC Award.

[Sue R]

I've seen this mentioned in several posts but whatever is an AB?

[sea4th]

whatever is an AB

I think it's an American Bulldog.

 

Vicki

[HKM's Mom]

Yes, it's an American Bulldog. Still considered a rare breed, and not recognized by the AKC.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by SchutzhundBCs:

Man people on this board love to argue. I think you guys like to argue, JUST to argue.

 

Can I have my own opinion or do I have to be a conformist like all you other fanatic herding people?

Let me see if I understand this ...

 

If YOU come on the board and post an opinion it's a reasonable, level headed, open minded thing for you to do.

 

If someone disagrees with your opinion, they are a ranting, argumentative facist.

 

Did I get that straight Stephanie?

 

Here's MY opinion: There is nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. There were several in this thread, and all of them were politely expressed. And what's more, that's called a debate, not an argument.

 

There IS something wrong with getting pissed off that people have a different opinion from you. Name calling is trollish. And when one or two people have a differing opinion from you, that doesn't make everyone who posts here a large, cohesive group of facists.

 

So why do people who don't enjoy the freedom of expressed opinions visit bulletin boards anyway? That's what happens. If you don't agree with something, either post your disagreement and enjoy the debate, or hold your "tongue" (fingers) because you can't take the heat. But don't name call and finger point.

 

I, for example, happen to disagree with Melanie that borderjacks are nice little dogs. I'm going to stick with my original assessment of blech!blech! and 'evil' because frankly, all the ones we have had come through our rescue are devlish little monsters. But I don't think it means Melanie is going to send me hate mail now...

 

RDM

[BigD]

Wow Stephanie - I think there is a hole in your flame suit. Don't take it so seriously.

 

I agree with you on one hand - the hand that lives on an island and has NO other arena to compete in other than AKC. And yes, maybe the "title" is for me...but whatever. It's fun and I enjoy it. I go to the fun trials more than the actual AKC events anyway. But I'm not here to defend my actions.

 

I am reading that Borderjacks are the "hip" thing in the flyball ring. I've never heard of one out here or seen one. Probably because we don't have any serious fly-ball clubs on the island.

 

So, this means that fly-ball is not an AKC "thing" as the Borderjack is not an AKC "breed," correct?

 

Now, taking this information and the possiblity of the AKC opening their events to mixed breeds - wouldn't this only serve to promote more "mixed" breeding to get the blue ribbon? Just like they are doing in fly-ball?

 

Will the AKC have to revise their breed standard when the "small" Border Collies start to flood the rings? Or what if the Agility folks come up with some mix that is just all the rage?

 

Personally, I think, by looking at what is going on in the fly-ball arena...this opening to mixes is not a good idea. And yes, I know they want to money...but just like the conformation BC, they are going to end up with a whole different type of dog in the ring...how will they handle that one?

 

Interesting topic...and one I plan to bring up at my next club meeting....

 

Denise

[Denise Wall]

Stephanie,

 

I went to your web site and I think you have some good ideas. Please stick with this board and keep reading and learning. Like the dogs we admire, we can be very intense here. Sometimes to move ahead you have to feel the burn

 

Denise

[Rave]

Just got back from a 3-day flyball tourney, we won, yaay.

Some competitive people will do just about anything to win, and yes that involves breeding smaller, faster, more psychotic dogs and experimenting with crosses that will produce the "ultimate" sport dog. The funny thing is, they're still not beating us yet (in this area). LOL See, no matter what you breed, you still have to train it and live with it. People who spend thousands of dollars on a custom-bred sport dog aren't going to automatically win. Great trainers are what makes great dogs.

 

I wouldn't call NADAC super easy, but it is fun as the courses are usually flowing and let the dog get up to speed.

 

Denise, flyball has nothing to do with the AKC (thankfully!). And I competely understand your having no other choice but AKC for agility. I have no problems with anyone competing in AKC (as an instructor, I can't!), it's just my personal choice not to support AKC in any way. I have many friends who compete in AKC events, including breed shows even.

 

I don't think allowing mixed breeds in AKC will further encourage the intentional breeding of mixes, as USDAA, which allows all dogs, is seen as the most competitive agility venue in the US.

[Lunar]

Intentionally breeding dogs just to win... I guess that's sort of the same reason I don't like the AKC so much. But at least it has a purpose of sorts - for most breeds (not the BCs and the like), it keeps the breeds to a standard. It promotes continuing the breed. People breed BCs to herd, and breeding stock is selected from herding dogs who have proven themselves. But breeding a dog... just to have dogs who are good at flyball... is the human race so sad? When I compete in agility with my dog(s) I'm doing it to have a good time with my dogs. I know lots of people do it competitively. But to create litter after litter of dogs just to WIN? That has me flabbergasted. Who needs to win that badly?

 

I would have to agree with the opinion that the idea of a Jack crossed with a BC is the worst possible pet. Some neighbors of my parents got a Jack puppy as their first dog, and I about fainted. I seriously doubt they did any research - they have small kids and that dog is just going to be bouncing off the wall. Maybe they'll prove me wrong.

 

AKC allowing mixes in agility trails - I personally have never understood why your breed has to do with agility. I agree with Stephanie's point that in places where there is nothing but AKC is would provide more opportunities for the mixes who get overlooked. But I also tend to agree with rtphokie's point that it will encourage more mixed breedings, which I just don't think is a good thing at all. Either way, I won't do AKC trails, I still don't care for them.