Conformation Herding Champion

[karrider]

[Tuck's BCBuddy asks...

 

And you think this is open minded? Oh that's right, since Denise is from NC, USA, she can't possibly know anything or anyone on the other side of the pond, eh?

 

 

skip the sarcasm! Denise may very well be acqainted with people the length adth of the British Isles, that was not my point, I was simply pointing out her guess at who my mentor(if I had One which I don't) was way off beam, nothing closed minded about that is there

Karin

[Doug Boyder]

Herding is the defining characteristic of a Border Collie, even by Conformation Standards. After having read the contents of this discussion, I believe that Tracking, Agility and Obedience are merely side-effects of owning such an intelligent dog.

 

The Border Collie is not a nondescript Cattle Dog. It has its own unique characteristics, inherited from a number of key ancesters. The USBCC makes no effort to preserve the appearance of the Border Collie, concentrating purely on function (correct me if I'm wrong). A Basset Hound would (and probably has) become classified as a Border Collie if it could crouch and eye "moving targets".

 

Lets take a look at some of our key Border Collie ancesters:

1893 - Old Hemp

1901 - Old Kep

1937 - J.M. Wilson's Cap

1963 - Wiston Cap

 

Herding ability should be used to define the Border Collie as a breed. A Breed Standard should also be used to preserve the basic form and construction of a Border Collie. No Border Collie should be unable to herd, and no Border Collie Champion should be unable to herd to a very high standard.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Doug Boyder:

The Border Collie is not a nondescript Cattle Dog. It has its own unique characteristics, inherited from a number of key ancesters. The USBCC makes no effort to preserve the appearance of the Border Collie, concentrating purely on function (correct me if I'm wrong). A Basset Hound would (and probably has) become classified as a Border Collie if it could crouch and eye "moving targets".

Um, Doug. You are wrong. A basset hound could not be registerd as a border collie unless it was able to work livestock to a very exacting standard. It would have to show proof of that work, and its work would have to be evaluated by a certain number of the board of directors of the ABCA. If, however, the basset could do more than crouch and eye a moving target (heck, a cat can do that; my chickens crouch and eye moving targets too), but could actually herd with some high level of skill, well, then yes indeed it could possibly be registered on merit with the ABCA.

 

I don't think any of the dogs you showed--all greats to be sure--would meet the KC conformation standard. If they did actually match the standard to some reasonable degree, they probably still wouldn't be conformation champions because they wouldn't be put up--they simply don't match what judges *want* to see. (Just look what's winning at, say, Westminster or Crufts--those dogs don't look anything like the ones in your post, exept that they are black and white).

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Karin,

I don't think providing the rest of Tim Longton's quote proves your point either. I'm quite sure he's not saying, "oh, no need to get your dog from working lines; that Crufts champion will do just fine." No doubt "stock of no pedigree" still means farm dogs/working dogs, not conformation dogs. He's probably spinning in his grave over the misuse of his intent.....

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Dont go for a certain line just because everybody else does,if you seek a work dog and not a future sire or dam pedigree is of small account there are poor performers in litters of great distinction and good ones from stock of no pedigree. >>

 

Yes, what you quote, punctuated and divided into three sentences, did follow "It cannot be stressed too strongly that if you want a work dog both parents should be work dogs." So what? The question you were asked was whether you would advise someone buying a pup for work that "they had just as good of a chance at a good one from parents six generations from working dogs as from working, proven parents." You twisted and turned every which way to avoid answering it, and then tried to imply that Tim Longton saw no need to look for working parents in a pup purchased for work. That is absurd, of course, and hence I quoted a statement of his that made it clear that was not his view. What you quote in no way contradicts that. It just reflects the fact that many good working dogs were, at the time he wrote, unregistered and therefore without pedigrees.

 

Are you open-minded enough to admit that Tim Longton did not select or advocate selecting pups for work from parents who don't work? Are you open-minded enough to admit that he opposed setting conformation standards for border collies as being damaging to the breed? Probably not, since you tried to imply otherwise.

 

>

 

Why? Because in response to Denise you said, "I think I would be looking at your own breeding practices also," and then launched into an unintelligible story apparently about a dishonest breeder, ending up, "the great ABCA self appointed defender of the Border Collie is not such a great defender after all is it." Since Denise is an ABCA director, and you were apparently addressing her, I assumed your criticism of some breeder or other MIGHT have been directed at her. My mistake. No, I don't have sufficient interest in whatever dark implications you might be trying to make to email you about them.

 

>

 

Of course I know that it occurs in several species, but why does that make it unlikely to be due to a genetic mutation? What the heck else would it be?

[nancy]

I don't herd; I haven't been able to convince the city that a Swaledale is a "Horned Yorkshire Wool Dog" yet.

 

But I sure have seen my share of herding border collies in Yorkshire.

 

As my grandmother always said, "Handsome is as Handsome does."

 

If that Basset did not just pose but actually moved sheep, independently, from walled field to walled field, or got new bullocks from the trailer into the correct pen, I'd be willing to bet that John or Gary would call it a border collie for you.

 

Everything from about terrier to lurcher has been identified to me as a border collie. Because it worked as a border collie.

 

Tomorrow morning, I'll have the right clothes and have the body style that looks just like a great 5K runner. But don't expect me to be one of the top finishers in the Race for the Cure. My heart is there, and I really want to do the job, and I do have the conformation. But the best I'll do is finish before they start the next race and have donated to the fight against breast cancer. But. man, I can look the part.

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Well karrider, I could debate what you said further, but it would be counterproductive to this actual thread. Suffice it to say, was really just pointing out one instance where you sure don't seem as open minded as you like to believe you are.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

If you think crouching and eyeing moving targets is all there is to herding ability, no wonder you don't understand our concern for preserving it. No, a dog would not be registered on merit just because it can crouch and stare. There is much, much, much, much more required to be a useful livestock herding dog than that. A basset hound couldn't cut it.

 

>

 

Right, I agree.

 

>

 

Nope, disagree. Did you notice that Wiston Cap had prick ears? He would not meet the Australian breed standard, which calls for ears to be "carried semi-erect." So under your theory he's out, because you want only dogs that are both conformation champions and have herding ability, and he wouldn't qualify.

 

Thanks anyway, but I'll go with the gene pool where the Wiston Caps aren't filtered out.

[Bill Fosher]

Doug,

 

Take a look at the Register on Merit program at http://www.americanbordercollie.org

 

It takes a lot more than crouch and eye to be called a Border collie.

 

You also write: ...no Border Collie Champion should be unable to herd to a very high standard.

 

Let's parse this a little bit. Do you mean exactly what you say, or do you mean something a little more affirmative. There's a difference between "no champion should be unable to ..." and "every champion should be able to ..." and "every champion should have demonstrated ability to ..."

 

For instance, take the 10-month old champion on your website. I can't say he was unable to herd at a very high level. Even if I had been training him for half his life, I wouldn't be able to say that at 10 months. So I wouldn't be able to disqualify him from his championship, even if he showed little or no interest in sheep at that age.

 

On the other hand, if we were to invert your statement and say that every champion should have demonstrated ability, I don't expect the dog would have been eligible. Very few dogs are working at what I would consider a high level at that age. Wiston Cap did. I believe he was 13 months old when he started winning trials.

 

The middle ground -- every champion should be able to -- is pretty nebulous. Who says what constitues being able to? The show ring judge? They're already supposed to be doing that by looking at the dog's gait and facial expression or something nonsensical like that.

 

That's before we get into parsing what "to herd to a very high standard" means.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

By the way, not that it's relavent to anything in particular - third one down is the very famous pic of Wiston Cap, not JM's Wartime Cap. Cap had a white head, and ears pricked to the sky where German bombers flew on his watch.

 

I could put up more pictures of dogs you would view less kindly, but were equally important to our lines. Let's talk about Dickson's Hemp, a dog so ugly he was known for it, even among shepherds who worked with a breed not known then for glamor. But if his likeness - black and tan, brutish (he inherited a wolfish head from a forebear named Tommy), bow legged, flop eared, tri sprinkled in awkward places - appeared in a descendant, hope sprung that his incredible cleverness with sheep would also be reborn.

 

His most famous offspring would come from a pairing to a bitch also not exactly known for her looks, Wallace's Loos. Stocky, with a coarse short coat, one ear pricked straight up and one flopped down - unprepossessing would be a kind way to describe that grand old dame of the breed. But she is one of the founding brood bitches. She provided a valuable line out away from the Old Hemp line, preventing early inbreeding.

 

Both of them went back to another famous stud, Herdman's Tommy. He too lacked rather a lot in the looks department. He was cleverly line bred, a result of an aunt/nephew breeding, which produced a dog almost too stock-smart to handle, but breedings with the more gentle Old Hemp/Kep type bitches produced dozens of sons and daughters with his almost all of his cleverness and few of his faults. But many inherited his brutish looks also. Would you have him removed from the gene pool? In 1938, J. McCulloch wrote, "Tommy was a mos prepotent dog and the best representatives of the modern breed are descended from his progeny."

 

Some of the ugliest, too. Can anyone forget Templeton's Roy of recent memory? His sire Moss stamped the same looks on many of his descendants - a black face heavily smeared with tan, angular joints, and a heavy skull that ended in a blunted muzzle. Yet Moss and Roy are key dogs of the modern breed.

 

Someone said it and it should be said again. It is difficult enough to produce a well-rounded working dog, much less a champion. Why should it be neccessary to distract us with size, shape, coloring requirements? Many important dogs would be lost to the breed. And how do we know for sure that ugliness is NOT linked somehow to important traits we need to continue producing high-level working dogs?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Can someone e-mail me or pm with instructions on how to post a picture? I really want to share my pictures of these "handsome-is-as-handsome-does" dogs.

 

Thanks!

[bcnewe2]

Hi All

I think the conformation Border/Barbie Collie people are missing the point. They can?t help it. When I got my first Border Collie I didn't know the difference between the barbie and the border collie. I knew they were smart dogs and it had been my dream since being on my great uncles farm watching his dogs bring in the cows and anything else that he needed doing to have one.

My first BC could not even be classified as a barbie. She is a poor example of a working BC. I love her and she is still my sole mate. At that time I had no idea of the differences. She looks just like Fly from the movie Babe. Isn?t that a Border Collie? How was I to tell the difference?

 

When I started herding with her, and after quite a few years I had just scratched the surface of what might be the difference. When I first started, I thought those big hat herding people must beat their dogs, why else would they look all crouched down and so obedient? They weren?t doing outruns?they must have been running for their lives;)

I still didn't know the real difference until I got proficient enough in the art of herding to see the subtle differences of different breedings, not to mention looking for things that I found I liked in a working dog.

I?m on my fourth BC (besides rescues and fostering) and now think I might/maybe have the right one. My other dogs are great farm dogs but just don?t have what it takes to make the big difference. Did I know it when I got them?of course not?all the wanna be big hats I met on the way had me believing all working line BC?s could do it. How did I know the difference? Even owning my own sheep didn?t teach me the difference. Time, experience, watching, going to clinics, reading, research and the desire to learn the art of herding is what finally culminated into knowing what I like and what I think is a great border collie, not to mention the uncountable hours of training and working my own dogs.

Ask different people, they all have different opinions as to what they are looking for in their great BC. Even the real "Big Hats" all have different things they are looking for.

I talk to AKC border collie people all the time. Most of them think that their dog has as good a chance as any BC to win in USBCHA open trials?if only they were good enough at handling their dog. I even had one lady ask me if there was something wrong with my puppy cause all he did was herd the other bc's and give lots of eye. She thought maybe he was slow to develop his social skills. They just don't feel it. They can't feel it.

 

My long point is....until someone becomes proficient at herding, or at least experienced and want to learn the fine art of herding with a "good working line" BC, they just can't get/feel it.

I didn't. Not till I was already competing in the 'other' venues and doing pretty well with my so-so bred BC. Then I tried to move over/up to the USBCHA type trials. What happened to my good "all around" herding BC? She would have done poorly forever. but, by then I began to feel the difference.

I now think I have the right kind of BC. Trying to explain the difference to regular dog people, even regular BC people has never been successful for me. I've discussed till I was blue and still get no where. You can not teach or show the differences till someone is ready to learn. Somehow people think we are insulting their personal dog when we try to explain the difference.

How come in the horse world people know the difference in a race horse and a good riding horse and there is no argument in distinguishing the two. Do regular horse people try racing non through bred race horses so that they can then call them race horses? Do race horse people call their culls riding horses?

Is a Barbie Collie as good as a well bred working border collie at herding? You?ll never feel/know the difference until you have worked both.

 

For me?My barbie collie is proud of her name, but I wouldn?t want to sully it by putting her in USBCHA trials and making a fool or her or me! Ahhh?but watch out for my pup?he?s growing and I?m still learning!

We all have to start somewhere. Some just choose to stay where they started.

Thank you to my barbie collie for giving me my start in this addiction. Maybe she isn?t a great working dog but she?s a great dog and that?s good enough for her and me. I don?t consider her less of a dog?just not a working BC.

No insults here?just acknowledging the differences.

Kristen

[Denise Wall]

Kristen,

 

Very nice. Thank you.

 

Doug,

 

Keep reading and learning. At least you're trying.

[bcnewe2]

Snip

>It?s a simple question. Please answer yes or no ? In general, all other factors aside, do you believe you have the same chance of getting a good working dog from parents six generations from working stock as you would from working, proven parents?>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

to answer the question above:

NO...here's why.

My first dog

Jazz aka. Barbie: What's a big hat?

Dog #2

Raven: I come from Arthur Allen's lines....What I don't have in power I make up for 10 times over in style...oops...that don't bring in the cow/calf pairs from the back field, or that snorting, stomping ewe with her 3 day old lambs now does it? Don't make for a pretty shed either! As Jazz asks...what's a shed??

Dog #3

Joe: I come from a breeder who's brother is a very very big hat. It must have fallen over my eyes...I can't feel my sheep! We're working on it!

Dog #4

Mick: I could tell you who my parents are and probably impress you with my lines but I wasn't picked because of their names...I was picked because my owner went out and found a dog she thought was awesome and trained with the owner of the bitch long enough to see if she liked the lines(still training there), then she went to the finals last year to meet and watch the sire of the pups to see if that was what she wanted in her dog too! Then she waited for that breeding to happen. Both my parents have been in the finals and done well. Both have what my mom wants to see in me! It's up to her to get me there!

 

Dog's # 2 & 3 come from generations back of good working dogs, but...and it's a big one...I didn't pay enough attention to what the actual parents were doing, in my own defense, I wouldn't have known any better anyway.

 

You'll know your starting to get it right when you work a friends AKC dog for over a year and make small progress(ok...I love working any dog and can learn from any of them..even if it might only be what I don't want), then you put your own pup on sheep at 6 months and he does more in one exposure on sheep than the AKC dog will ever do in his whole life, and we were just checking to see if he turned on yet...no pressure! Sad thing was...my AKC friend couldn't figure it out.

I've read about some people clicker training their dog on sheep. For some BC's that would be the only way they might learn, and again...sadly, some owners think that's a good thing. I, am not that good of a trainer....I have seen some really great stockdog trainers make mediocre dogs look dam good. I have a better chance of getting there with all the talent a good working dog brings. Shhh...Don't let the secret out that a good "working" BC is much easier to train than an AKC "ultimate" BC;)

 

Finally...would I ever breed my barbie? She's fixed....but at one time I might have...I still didn't know the difference. Now....I won't breed till I'm ready to make my own little hybrid herding BC's. Then it will only be to get a better herding partner(s). That's a ways off in the future. But it sure won't be a barbie or just any working bc either!

Maybe we can let the barbies have "ultimate" in front of their names...how bout "working" in front of ours? I don't think we will ever agree on what's a proper Border Collie. But I also don't see the true working lines getting mucked up with Barbies. How could you?

 

It's like drug addiction. If you don't have the addiction you won't know how it feels. How will you know when your feeling it?....it'll keep you up at night wanting more!

 

It's a feeling....some have it some don't.....

Now it's really late, maybe I'll be able to sleep instead of thinking about working dogs!!

Kristen

[Rave]

"It's like drug addiction. If you don't have the addiction you won't know how it feels. How will you know when your feeling it?....it'll keep you up at night wanting more! "

 

Nice quote Kristen.

 

Becca, go to www.photobucket.com and create a free account there...those photos you will be able to link to on here.

 

-Laura

[Olivia]

Just wanted to throw in my two cents.

 

I purchased my first Border Collie 4 years ago. I didn't know much about herding so I didn't really look at bloodlines. I have a cute little red and white tri prick eared female (spayed of course). At about age 1 year I took her to a weekend long clinic to see if she could herd, just on a lark. At the first lesson we were kicked our of the round pen into the "big" field. 3 years and countless lessons later we are getting ready to make our trialing debut in Aug. She is a wonderful working dog, and my trainer was itching for me to let her keep her for a month. Said she could be an open dog in no time. I kept her with me and we learned together. I looked back at her breeding and saw nothing of interest, just a couple of farm dogs that were bred, or so I thought. They were not trial dogs but they were awesome at what they did. Each had it's flaws but together they made at least one good working dog. She and I will keep working together, even though it is me who is holding her back, and if you ever see us at Nationals please say hi; you will know that this little dog has taught me more about heart, forgiveness, and god-given talent than all the fluffy dogs that have ever trotted around an arena could imagine. I think she is at her most beautiful, covered with mud, crouching behind the ewe/lamb pairs moving them along with just swayings of her body, giant ears straight up and 28 lbs body held tense. Not a show dog but a true partner and working dog.

 

My second dog came from a breeding that my trainer did. She had a male open trialing dog that I loved. Loved everything about him, his working style, pups that he threw, off sheep attitude, etc. The dam was also an open dog with just a little too much seriousness about her and not much beauty. The trainer called me one day and told me she had me a pup. Griffin is the spitting image of his dad, even down to the way his tail cocks to the left when he tucks it when he works. He is very handsome, big, with just the right markings. However, he will never see the breed ring. He will be my open dog (hopefully), and if we make it there it will be because generations of dogs came together in him to make him who he is. He is slower about starting than Carlie but with lots of work and training maybe we will live up his trainer's expectations.

 

Maybe one day I will breed him. But that is far in the future (his sire was 9 when Griffin was conceived). We have much prooving to do between now and then; and if he doesnt make it, so be it, he will not be bred and we will trial him and love him.

 

Olivia

Carlie and Griffin

 

Herding is like an addiction. First you start small, just one dog, and you can stop whenever you want. Then a second or third and you might need some professional help. Then sheep and a farm and you can just give up, you have hit the point of no return and no amount of intervention can save you now.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont have much to add but I know I am definatly sticking to farm bred BCs after I got misty. happy is great(sport bred) and she could easily make it as a herding dog, the prooven sheepdogs are so close in her pedigree that she still have a TONE of instinct, her mom does not work, howver she is proven, her sir on the other hand have barbie close in blood to him and he as his owner said "would be taken behind the barn" he is so clueless thankfully happy does not take after her dad in any way! misty on the other hand is a born and bred farm dog, both her parents work cattle, and her parents parents are agriabtion champion stock dogs(a huge sheep dog trial over here) while happy can work, and is very smart, misty is smarter, demads more respect, and can actully get the stock to move lol happy just keeps it together, no idea if she could move stock or not, never tried. but anyway I personlay love the look of a BC working MUCH better.

 

 

 

now misty does not take things as seriously as happy so I really couldnt tell how well she would actually do.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>A Basset Hound would and probably has become classified as a Border Collie if it could crouch and eye "moving targets".<<

 

I have been reading this thread for a bit and have been thinking about this comment. At first I took GREAT OFFENSE at this remark but now figured the statment was due to ignorance.

 

Why?

 

I have one of the three dogs in ABCA history to be Registered On Merit - ROM.

 

Tess is no Basset Hound.

 

Diane Pagel

Carnation, WA

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Testing, please excuse the mess.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

OK, thanks to Eileen and Laura we're in business.

 

Notice in the previous picture a suspicious tendency to beardedness of the jawlines - especially in the one on the right.

 

Some key dogs of the breed who are generally kept in the closet:

 

Herdman's Tommy

 

Dickson's Hemp

 

Wallace's Loos II

 

Templeton's Reserve International Supreme Ch. Moss (1979)

 

Moss's son Templeton's Dual Res. Int Supreme Ch. Roy (1985 & 1989)

Note the extension of tri on hip and flank - big breed ring no-no!

 

International Supreme Ch. Don (1985)

 

Would anyone like to propose removing these champions from the gene pool?

[lisa lucas]

Hiya brookcove 2,

 

Do you know who the two are in your photo?

 

I ask as I am aware that one of my pup's ancestors is Maddie ISDS 8, a bearded collie. I just wondered if these two were from around the same era?

 

Love Lisa

[Doug Boyder]

Thank you for your insight, opinions, and comprehensive knowledge of the Breed.

 

There is a perception that Border Collie Conformation deals with form, and not with Herding function. Sadly, many of these concerns are justified, particularly in Australia, where Herding Ability is not a prerequisite for Border Collies to enter the Conformation Ring. The Australian "Breed Standard" describes the ideals for "the perfect Border Collie" in great detail. It states that the "intended task" of the Border Collie is "a working sheep dog". If Border Collies without proven Herding Ability continue to be bred, then the defining characteristics of this "working sheep dog" will become diluted and perhaps lost forever! IF it has been proven that a Border Collie has significant Herding Ability, THEN the dog should be ready to enter the Conformation Ring and demonstrate its correct form and structure (I think you misunderstood my veiled sarcasm previously).

 

Conformation does have its place. It is necessary to preserve the correct form of the herding Border Collie in its "intended task as a working sheep dog". The Border Collie should be bred to work effortlessly and gracefully, and avoid injury due to poor construction and balance.

 

I believe I have unveiled three major schools of thought while reading this discussion:

 

1. The "Sporter Collie"

 

People with high demands for sporting performance often own Border Collies. "Sporter Collies", as labelled by some of you, can jump through hoops and perform extremely complex Obedience tasks. Unfortunately, sporting enthusiasts sometimes fail to realise that the Border Collie should remain, first and foremost, a herding dog. "Sporter Collie" breeding programmes should always produce offspring with significant Herding Ability, and must always concentrate on preserving the Border Collie for "its intended task as a working sheep dog". All Herding Border Collies can participate in Sports, but not all Sporting Border Collies can demonstrate significant Herding Ability.

 

2. The "Barbie Collie"

 

The "Barbie Collie" is a term used to describe Border Collies that are bred for their form only, without significant attention to Herding Ability. A well constructed, proven herding dog should always have the advantage over a "Barbie Collie", bred for its looks only, because "fluffiness" and "prettiness" are not defined in the Australian Breed Standard. Conformation Judges have not paid enough attention to the Herding Ability described in their own Breed Standard. It is believed by Herding Testers that "Barbie Collies" usually lack the same drive as their farm-bred counterparts. Breeding "Barbie Collies" for their looks alone should be discouraged because it will dilute the defining characteristics of this breed. Remember, there is nothing more beautiful than a Border Collie at work.

 

3. The "Herder Collie"

 

I made this title up myself Farmers have a far more simplistic view of the Border Collie - the Border Collie must be able to work. It is not uncommon for a farmer to shoot dogs without strong Herding Instinct. Herding is a farmer's livelihood, so there is no room for an untalented sheep dog. The "Herder Collie" is bred by farmers to preserve Herding instinct, regardless of form. "Herder Collies" often have poor construction, and have to work unnecessarily hard to counteract their lack of form. Farmers do not seem to mind, referring to a struggling or ungainly animal as "having heart". Unfortunately, due to the increasing lack of attention to Herding Ability, farmers have dissociated themselves from Border Collie Conformation. They make no effort to preserve the unique characteristics that have distinguished the Border Collie from other breeds, and some have publicly stated that they would be prepared to include a Basset Hound in their breeding programmes if it could herd sheep!

 

Breeders of the "Sporter Collie", the "Barbie Collie" and the "Herding Collie" all agree, at least in theory, that the defining characteristic of the Border Collie is to be "a working sheep dog".

 

"Sporting Collie" breeders produce dogs with excellent form and balance. They test breeding stock for health and endurance, and achieve Titles requiring exceptional agility, flexibility, intelligence and skill. "Sporter Collie" breeders should help to preserve the breed by taking more of an interest in herding, and by developing the natural talents of their own dogs. If dogs with natural herding talent were to be used in breeding programmes, then the defining characteristics of the breed will not be lost.

 

"Barbie Collie" breeders, at their worst, still work tirelessly to produce balanced and graceful dogs that are built to withstand the physical demands expected of a herding dog. Australian Conformation judges should insist on demonstration of exceptional Herding Ability before allocating Titles. "Barbie Collie" breeders should become more involved in herding, and should isolate their own best herders for development and inclusion in future breeding programmes. Breeders are required by the Breed Standard to produce "a working sheep dog", and most of them will have to make a better effort to preserve Herding Ability.

 

"Herder Collie" breeds produce fine working stock with a keen desire to work. Their dogs are not perfect, and some are quite ungainly for the work they are expected to do. "Herder Collies" should never become indistinguishable from their Border Collie ancestors, and there should never be any doubt that the type of herding dog they are using is, if fact, a Border Collie. "Herder Collie" breeders might not be able to meet all of the aspects of a Breed Standard, but they should make an effort not to deviate too far. They should infiltrate the ranks of the general community by introducing them to Herding Trials, and by showing them beautiful working dogs, complete with scars and broken teeth.

 

Phew! I apologise for my long-winded summary of this discussion. Perhaps you ought to consider placing limits on your text fields! Thought I'd include a picture of my beautiful and intelligent "Barbie Collie-Sporter Collie-Cross".

Take care!

[Tassie]

Oh dear ? I know you guys warned me about the addiction ? but I think I?ve got it. Probably lucky for me that I?m not younger, or I?d be seriously looking at buying land/sheep etc. I can so relate to what you?re saying about the difference between AKC (read ANKC here in Oz) ?herding? and ?proper work?. Kirra and I started the first way, but we?ve been lucky now to have a trainer who has 1500 fine wool merinos on 800 acres, and who trials her dogs in Working Sheepdog trials. It?s taken us nearly 3 months to get Kirra out of some bad habits, but she?s now starting to get it, and we can now work out in the biggish paddock where my trainer has her trial set-up. Kirra is not working bred, and we certainly have a much steeper learning curve than if she were working bred ? but luckily she seems to be one of the ?flukes? among sport collies who still has a bit of sheep sense left. So once I got over the ?micro-managing? as Diane Pagel describes of her dog who did AKC herding (thank you Diane ? that was an a-ha moment for me), we?re now able to start enjoying just a smidgeon of the magic of the dog working out, with a bit of help, what she needs to do. I drive 100 km (about 70 minutes) each way twice a week, once for a lesson and once for practice, and each time I can hardly wait for the next time. We may never make it to trials ? although she?s only 2, so who knows ? but we?re having experiences together that I wouldn?t have missed. If I?d known about this earlier, and known the feeling, then I?m sure I would be looking for working bred dogs, in the way Kristen described so well.

 

Doug, I've just read your latest post, and I really can't agree with some of the things you've said. For example,

"Barbie Collie" breeders, at their worst, still work tirelessly to produce balanced and graceful dogs that are built to withstand the physical demands expected of a herding dog.

IMHO most show breeders, at least those who are not also breeding for sport performance, breed only to produce the style of dog that is winning most. Australian show breeders actually had the standard changed to make the dogs squarer (10 is to 9 instead of 10 is to 8 or 8.5) making the dogs squarer and by definition less flexible than they were meant to be.

 

I also highly doubt what you say about poor physical construction of true working dogs.

"Herder Collies" often have poor construction, and have to work unnecessarily hard to counteract their lack of form. Farmers do not seem to mind, referring to a struggling or ungainly animal as "having heart".

Why on earth would farmers, who have developed a good eye for proper construction of their livestock, not be just as concerned for the construction of their main workers, their dogs. The working dogs that can work on ranches and sheep and cattle stations, that can cut it "on the hill" IMHO are the true yardstick of proper construction - not the artificial breed standard which pays lip service to the dogs' herding function.

 

Just as an aside, it's interesting to look at the UK, where as I understand it, a Border Collie can attain a Sh.CH. (show champion) without any demonstrated herding ability, but must demonstrate herding ablity to gain the title Ch. (full Champion).

[Bill Fosher]

Doug writes:

 

Conformation does have its place.

 

I'll agree with this statement, but I suspect we'll disagree on what that place is ...

 

It is necessary to preserve the correct form of the herding Border Collie in its "intended task as a working sheep dog". The Border Collie should be bred to work effortlessly and gracefully, and avoid injury due to poor construction and balance.

 

The work preserves the correct form of the dog. If my dog can run 100 miles today and get up again tomorrow begging and pleading to do it again, I don't care whether it *looks* as if it could.

 

I think this all comes down to one central difference between what we in the working dog world think of as a proven worker and what the fancy considers a proven worker. A dog with an HS title is not necessarily a proven worker. I'd even go as far as to say that a dog that wins the occasional AKC herding event is not necessarily a proven worker.

 

For that matter, there are some dogs that are winning USBCHA trials -- and even some that are getting into the national nursery finals -- that I would have my doubts about.

 

Proof of working ability comes over the course of time, in situations that are both familiar and strange, easy and hard, far from the handler and close at hand. On the hill and in the pens. On the trial field and loading the trailer.

 

For anyone to claim that they can pin this jello to the wall with a set of rules for a title is chutzpah. And to claim that you can do a better job of producing working dogs by placing conformation to a standard co-equal with or higher than working ability is ignorance at best, and probably really comes from self-serving greed.

 

I have a hard time believing that MacKenzie's Don, the ugly brute so poorly put togehter, was really "struggling" because of his conformation when he won the international supreme. I'm sure he was struggling -- it's an incredibly hard test of the dogs, and they all would have been struggling.

[Denise Wall]

Doug,

 

I'm very disappointed in your final summary from this thread. If these are your conclusions from what has been written, there's not much point in us saying anything else. I don't think anything is going to convince you to let go of the faulty AKC conformation mindset except trying to learn to work your own dogs to an ISDS standard. Then you will either get it or you won't. But I strongly encourage you to get out there and feel what it's like to be a part of a good dog/handler team on stock. I'm sure any of us would be happy to refer you to a proper trainer if you would like to email us privately.

 

Good luck.

 

Denise