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Oops, I had not read this when I posted my offer to guess the trainer. That just seemed like who it would have to be. I do have to say I doubt that his opinion will carry as much weight with working dog folks as you think it should.

 

But to answer your question, yes, if high-level herding ability is found in a border collie descended from many generations of breeding without regard to herding ability, it is a fluke, and if a border collie well-bred for herding ability does not work, that is also a fluke. Why exactly would you think otherwise?

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I do not believe that the dog being trained by Roy or the dog I bred are flukes, if you look at it like that are the dogs bred from working parents that do not work also flukes???,works both ways doesn't it.

 

Sure it works both ways and why shouldn't it? Are you saying working breeders are stupid for wasting their time studying bloodlines, training their dogs to the highest levels and proving them before selecting the appropriate mate, because you don't actually need to select for working ability? Are you saying the heritability of herding traits does not follow the laws of genetics?

 

You never really answered my question about which dog you would pick if you really needed a work dog. Pretend you are advising someone else who can't get a started dog. So would you tell them they had just as good of a chance at a good one from parents six generations from working dogs as from working, proven parents?

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The Australian Border Collie Conformation Standard states that "any aspect of structure or temperament foreign to a working dog is uncharacteristic", and that the Border Collie should be "capable of enduring long periods of active duty in its intended task as a working sheep dog".

 

I assume that all Conformation Champions MUST have proven their worth at Herding. No point in having correct form, without correct funtion. If Conformation Champions have not proven their worth at Herding, then I'm sure we all want to know why...

 

Sure, Border Collies without significant herding aptitudes are more intelligent than most other breeds, but they MUST be proven in herding, even by the Conformation Standard, before they can represent the Border Collie breed in any sort of breeding programme.

 

I hope that ALL BC breeders (Conformation and Sporting included) will work with farmers to isolate and nurture puppies with extremely strong herding aptitudes. Afterall, these will be our future Champions, even by the Australian Conformation Standard!

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Doug writes:

 

I assume that all Conformation Champions MUST have proven their worth at Herding.

 

Really?

 

What about Cody's offspring? I don't see any mention of herding whatsoever in Rain's bio, and at 10 months, I don't think anyone who knows anything about border collies would claim that a 10-month old pup could have proven its worth. At that age you're just seeing the raw material, and probably not all of it at that.

 

Tiger has a herding test and pre-trial test, either of which I could pass with a talented beagle. There are two conformation champions that haven't "proven their worth at herding."

 

The fact of the matter is that the AKC refused the recommendation of the BCSA that breed ring champions have at least one herding title (or something along those lines) because as far as the AKC is concerned performance is a sideline, not a way of breeding dogs.

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Is this just an assumption, or is it something you know to be true? Certainly the wording you quote would not give rise to such an assumption, and as far as I know, nearly all of the Australian champions imported by conformation border collie folks in the US have no proof whatsoever of their worth at herding--not even a herding instinct test. OTOH, if this is something you know to be true, please tell us how they must prove their worth, and what person or body decides if they have proved it or not.

 

It is certainly not true of US conformation champions. The AKC has specifically rejected the possibility of any such requirement.

 

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Well, it's obvious why. Very, very few of them are able to herd to any standard of usefulness, and few if any of their owners give a damn. Neither does the Kennel Club.

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Well said Eileen,

 

As to conformation breeders working with farmers to preserve working ability in the conformation lines, this is again like working with burglars to help protect the contents of your jewelry box. We don't need the help of conformation and sport breeders, and we don't owe them anything. If they want to help us, they should stop breeding dogs to a standard other than the one that has produced the Border collie of today and that will improve the working dogs of the future, and start breeding them correctly.

 

You're either interesting in working ability, or you're interested in something else. Why should I work with people to preserve working ability when they are trying to change the breed in a way that will by its very definition diminish that ability?

 

When you say that dogs with strong herding talents should be identified becasue they will be the champions of the future, even by a conformation standard, do you mean to say that a very talented working dog would be put up in the breed ring despite flaws when judged against the conformation standard?

 

To quote the great philosopher Wayne Campbell of Wayne's World, "Cha! And monkeys will fly out of my butt!"

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You never really answered my question about which dog you would pick if you really needed a work dog. Pretend you are advising someone else who can't get a started dog. So would you tell them they had just as good of a chance at a good one from parents six generations from working dogs as from working, proven parents?

 

 

This is like asking how long is a piece of string, it depends just as much on the owners training ability and the nature of the bond with their dog, I believe the old saying there is a dog for a man and a man for a dog,not very dog will be suited to the person buying it, I think my advice would be before buying anything look at the parents, look at temperament, health and if possible other pups from this particular pairing.

 

I use a quote here from Tim Longton, you may not think that Roys much of a trainer but even this list has to agree on the worth of Tim and his brother, he says "quote"for a working dog outstanding blood is neither essential nor indication of equal ablility in the offspring!

 

 

I think I would be looking at your own breeding practices also, A border collie mixed with another breed is just that a mix, not a border collie, it may well be a great sheep or cattle dog, but then it should just be called a Sheepdog, not specifically a Border Collie,I also refer to registrations(or attempted) with the ABCA

where 2 dogs were listed as parents which looking at the pups were obviously a 2 sire litter,then then one of the pups miraculously appears under completely different sire and dam! no, the great ABCA self appointed defender of the Border Collie is not such a great defender after all is it.

 

The only other point I wanted to make was the snide remark about conformation breeders introducing CL into the Border Collie, now pray tell where do you think the Original Australian Stock Originated?? yep the UK, Is the Border Collie in the UK riddled with CL no, I think the question should rather be what did the original stockmen in australia put into the BC BEFORE they were taken up for Conformation showing!

 

Finally before I run out of puff, if stockmen are so uninterested in the looks of their dogs why did the ISDS run classes for the best looking dog after the trails had been run???

 

Karin

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Well, I have to run and can't respond to the other parts of your post but...with all due respect, what in the hell are you talking about here?

 

I think I would be looking at your own breeding practices also, A border collie mixed with another breed is just that a mix, not a border collie, it may well be a great sheep or cattle dog, but then it should just be called a Sheepdog, not specifically a Border Collie,I also refer to registrations(or attempted) with the ABCA where 2 dogs were listed as parents which looking at the pups were obviously a 2 sire litter,then then one of the pups miraculously appears under completely different sire and dam! no, the great ABCA self appointed defender of the Border Collie is not such a great defender after all is it.

 

Below is a link to my page with all my dogs and their pedigrees:

 

http://www.stilhope.com/stilhopemain.htm

 

If you were referring to me specifically, then you obviously have me confused with someone else. If this is some random allegation toward ABCA, then I think you're opening a pretty big can of worms to start comparing individual cases in any registry vs another. I think I have a pretty good idea now of who you mentor is.

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Hi all,

 

Interesting thread so far..

 

 

This is like asking how long is a piece of string, it depends just as much on the owners training ability and the nature of the bond with their dog, I believe the old saying there is a dog for a man and a man for a dog,not very dog will be suited to the person buying it,>>Karin

 

While a persons training ability and ability to bond with a started dog is a factor after the purchase- its certainly doesn't answer the question on what dog you would start out with given the two options. If a person wants a true working dog, its common sense that one would pick a dog that was bred to do the work it was intended to do.

 

<< I think my advice would be before buying anything look at the parents, look at temperament, health and if possible other pups from this particular pairing.>>

 

Do you think a six generation away from working litter or prior siblings would be as likely to be what a person looking for a working dog needs as a litter/siblings that were specifically bred to work?

 

I use a quote here from Tim Longton, you may not think that Roys much of a trainer but even this list has to agree on the worth of Tim and his brother, he says "quote"for a working dog outstanding blood is neither essential nor indication of equal ablility in the offspring!>>

 

Don't you think there is a difference between saying a dog doesn't need "outstanding" working blood as opposed to saying a dog doesn't need "working blood" at all? Its well recognized in the working border collie world that two National Finals winners are not the only option for selecting breeding stock. There is a wide range of good to great dogs that are breeding quality- the trick is having the knowledge to properly select pairs that would compliment each other. If Mr. Longton said such a thing, it wouldn't be wrong- its not necessary to have "outstanding" working blood to create good dogs, but it is necessary to have a standard of very good work to select breeding pairs.

 

 

I think I would be looking at your own breeding practices also, A border collie mixed with another breed is just that a mix, not a border collie, it may well be a great sheep or cattle dog, but then it should just be called a Sheepdog, not specifically a Border Collie,I also refer to registrations(or attempted) with the ABCA

where 2 dogs were listed as parents which looking at the pups were obviously a 2 sire litter,then then one of the pups miraculously appears under completely different sire and dam! no, the great ABCA self appointed defender of the Border Collie is not such a great defender after all is it.>>

 

This seems like an unfounded allegation, and if its true- would be the exception in what gets registered at ABCA. I think it was proven that you could register just about anything with AKC if you knew how to fake the paperwork. Even the DNA testing is voluntarily for most breeders. There is nothing to prevent mixed breeds being registered in either ABCA or AKC except for breeder integrity.

 

 

Is the Border Collie in the UK riddled with CL no, I think the question should rather be what did the original stockmen in australia put into the BC BEFORE they were taken up for Conformation showing!>>

 

Do you understand how genetic mutations, heredity, etc happens? Do you really think its because some random Austrailan stockmen decided to mix some heeler or kelpie in with his Border Collies and voila! it "caused" CL? Don't you think it was more likely that it was a genetic issue in a very specific line of Border Collies that were then bred tightly (inbreeding) to produce a very consistent physical appearance, resulting in doubling up on those genetic issues? If it really was the shepherd's fault-

its interesting that its not a problem in working bred dogs. I happen to own a granddaughter of a dog bred in Austrailia, reg. by the stockdog registry there- you'd think her relatives (I know many of them) would be carrying that CL gene by your reasoning. Luckily, I don't think that gene attaches itself to smooth coated fruit bats.

 

Finally before I run out of puff, if stockmen are so uninterested in the looks of their dogs why did the ISDS run classes for the best looking dog after the trails had been run???>>

 

For fun... I doubt it was taken very seriously or used to select breeding stock. The key here is AFTER the ISDS ran its very difficult course, not before or in exclusion of.

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Tim and his brother, he says "quote"for a working dog outstanding blood is neither essential nor indication of equal ablility in the offspring!
I usually stay out of this argument because there are those who much more eloquently than I can and have put into words my own stance on this issue.

 

But here, I just have this visual of Tim Longton and his brother sitting by ringside during judging of show border collies to contemplate their next move in breeding the next International winner.

 

Also, FWIW, isn't it true that while Australia's show border collies were already established, almost a separate breed, those in the UK were still dragging border collies out of the barn into the show ring, that maybe the show lines in the UK are closer to their roots than the OZ dogs & therefore might still have some working ability for however long, until the conformation people squelch whatever is left, that is. Maybe that's why KC people in the UK can quote working sheepdog people, because the split isn't complete, there is still a lot of crossover and maybe always will be.

 

Now, it would really be interesting if a working stockman from Australia would be quoted as saying that they would as soon go to show lines for a working dog than a working bred dog.

 

Just rambling---sorry, just a theory.

 

Is it that hard to understand that if someone's livelihood depends on a working dog, that person isn't going to the breed ring for a working dog. What you have in the breed ring are caricatures of what once was.

 

You know, sometimes this KC rhetoric is so deeply ingrained in people that they really do think they are perpetuating a breed as it should be. It's really sad---living in one's own microcosm of fallacies.

 

Vicki

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Oh, one more thing---that beagle someone referred to as being able to pass a KC lowest level test---probably could and beat the border collie from show lines that I saw taking this test. A finished champion from Australian show lines, this dogs passed the AKC Instinct test just barely. It was all the dog could to do obey it's owner's obedience commands and not keep it's head down scarfing up sheep crap. Obedience trained it was though, as it's owner told it what to do and where to be every step of the way. Instince testing? What's wrong with this picture---because the dog did pass, he could now sally forth, with "proof", according to the letters that AKC issues that he can herd! and be bred to produce more like him.

 

That's all. Carry on.

 

Pardon me while I hurl.

 

Vicki

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I readily accept Tim Longton as an expert. I notice you give no citation for the "quote" you include -- where it was said and in what context. But in Tim Longton's 1976 book, The Sheep Dog: Its Work and Training, he said, "It cannot be stressed too strongly that if you want a work dog both parents should be work dogs" (p. 19). And these were his closing words (pp. 113-115):

 

*****

 

In discussing the utility of sheep dog trials, we cannot better the words of former ISDS Secretary Mr James A. Reid in 1935:

 

What are the cumulative effects of all these factors of selective breeding and specialised training resulting from trials? It is our considered judgement that the breed stands today infinitely higher in working merit, and therefore in value, than ever it did. There is one decisive test. How comes it that the 'trial-bred' [border] Collie of today has practically ousted the 'old-fashioned' Collie, and is ousting other breeds everywhere, eg the Old Welsh Sheep Dog? How comes it that he, with fleet limbs, eager eyes and ears, and lolling tongue, is found toiling silently, day in and day out all the year round, in every pastoral area of the British Isles? And how comes it that his or her sons and daughters are similarly labouring in foreign lands. . . ? To these pregnant questions, the world-wide certificate of working merit, which fifty testing years of performance have given to our brilliant, brainy trial-bred Collie, is the conclusive answer. [Emphasis in original] . . . .

 

Today letters arrive at the International Sheep Dog Society office from all over the world, seeking information on pedigrees, trials results, and where to buy a well-bred Border collie. It is for this reason that any attempts to hold show classes for the breed are to be deplored, unless they are linked to working abilities. Sometimes, at the end of a trial, prizes are given for the best-looking dog, which must either have run in the trial or belong to a member of the local sheep dog association. This is just to add interest to a sociable afternoon, and to encourage youngsters to take care with the grooming of their charges. It has no connection whatsoever with current attempts to establish show standards for the Border collie in which height, coat, colour, set of ears and eye colour would be laid down. Such a move would do nothing but harm to the working collie. . . .

 

Enough has been written in this book to show that the best dogs have been of all colours, coats and sizes. There should be only one standard for the Border collie--work. It has been bred for generations by men whose own legs are saved by its performance. Let it remain that way.

 

*****

 

I don't think these are the words of a man who would have any trouble answering Denise's question.

 

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Huh? I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about here. Denise is one of the most ethical breeders imaginable. If you are making an accusation against her, spell it out! If you're making an accusation against the ABCA, spell it out! Whatever accusation you're making, I doubt it can be from first-hand knowledge, which is perhaps why you're being so vague and indirect. This just sounds like insult for the sake of insult.

 

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CL likely originated from a genetic mutation, which became concentrated through inbreeding by conformation breeders to fix "desirable" conformation traits.

 

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See above words of Tim Longton.

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Originally posted by karrider:

I use a quote here from Tim Longton, you may not think that Roys much of a trainer but even this list has to agree on the worth of Tim and his brother, he says "quote"for a working dog outstanding blood is neither essential nor indication of equal ablility in the offspring!

Karin

Hmmm....I'd be willing to bet that this quote from Tim Longton has been taken out of context. Although you might like us to believe that he doesn't consider working heritage important in a breeding decision, I certainly doubt that he intended his words to be used as a defense for choosing your next working dog out of conformation lines. More likely he was commenting on the fact that it's not necessary to breed int'l supreme champion to int'l supreme champion to get a good working dog.

 

As for the second half of the quote, I don't think anyone expects every pup out of a litter to be of equal working ability. But that still doesn't justify not starting with working dogs if one wants a better chance of getting a working dog. After all I don't think any farmer would breed a cow that is a poor milk producer in the hope that her offspring would be good milk producers, nor do I think the average shepherd would breed his ewes to a ram that didn't have a good build (for meat producers) in the hope that he would produce lambs for market with good carcasses. Why then would someone breed a dog that either can't herd or hasn't proven its ability with the idea that there would be a good chance of getting puppies who work?

 

Perhaps you should invite Tim (or his brother) to join this discussion so we can hear what he really thinks.

 

J.

 

Addendum: I see after I posted this that Eileen has done way better and gotten actual quotes from Tim Longton. And it is as I expected. Thanks Eileen.

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This is like asking how long is a piece of string, it depends just as much on the owners training ability and the nature of the bond with their dog, I believe the old saying there is a dog for a man and a man for a dog,not very dog will be suited to the person buying it, I think my advice would be before buying anything look at the parents, look at temperament, health and if possible other pups from this particular pairing.
The question was given a choice to get a pup for a job working stock which would you chose? Litter A is from lines that have not shown in six generations that they could necessarily work Litter B is from a breeding where we've seen the parents do the job you want, and the past generations were known to excell at the work, with each generation showing a refinement of the ability to do the job YOU need done. So all else being equal, which would make more sense? I don't understand your response above as it relates to this specific question.

 

for a working dog outstanding blood is neither essential nor indication of equal ablility in the offspring!
It is very odd that I read this to mean, knowing how Mr. Longton feels about careful breeding, that you cannot assume that you can produce working offspring from parents whose only evidence of working ability is his bloodlines. In other words, the working ability of each generation MUST be tested on the field. Quite the opposite of your stance in this argument.

 

I think I would be looking at your own breeding practices also, A border collie mixed with another breed is just that a mix, not a border collie, it may well be a great sheep or cattle dog, but then it should just be called a Sheepdog, not specifically a Border Collie,I also refer to registrations(or attempted) with the ABCA
What I'm getting from this is that you object to ROM? Yes, definitely, the bloodlines of the ABCA Border Collie are TAINTED and the AKC should close their studbook WITHOUT DELAY. You all should also throw out any dogs with suspect bloodlines. If they work up to the traditional standard, we'll take them gladly. We'll see in a few dozen generations who has the healthiest dogs and where the people who have work to do are going for dogs.

 

Which brings us to another point:

 

The only other point I wanted to make was the snide remark about conformation breeders introducing CL into the Border Collie, now pray tell where do you think the Original Australian Stock Originated?? yep the UK, Is the Border Collie in the UK riddled with CL no, I think the question should rather be what did the original stockmen in australia put into the BC BEFORE they were taken up for Conformation showing!
It wasn't a snide remark, it was a statement of FACT that CL was not evident in American stock until Australian conformation breeding stock was introduced. Neither stockmen nor any other breeders "put in" CL into the gene pool. It emerged when tight inbreeding to stabilize the physical type that wins shows, occured. It probably emerged in Australia due to the limited genepool of the island continent.

 

Here are the symptoms of CL:

 

# Unreasonable apprehension or fear of familiar objects/surroundings, sight disturbance.

 

# Abnormal gait - is unsteady on feet, has difficulty with jumping or climbing or placing feet, tends to prop or goose-step.

 

# Demented behaviour, mania, hyperactivity, rage.

 

These appear by the time the dog is eighteen months old. In the working world, potential breeding stock has only fairly begun training and there is little reason to breed a younster of eighteen months. So there is very little chance that an affected dog would be bred by accident. Symptoms would be noticed earlier, also, as they would interfere with the intense training occuring at this juncture.

 

Also, when breeding for working ability, one is constantly shifting the focus outside, "out of house", as breeding back individuals over and over tends to dilute the desired working characteristics rather than intensify them. I don't know why this is so but your friend Tim Longton could probably enlighten you. He and his family are past masters of manipulating the techniques of line breeding and outcrossing to stabilize their brand of working style.

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Well, piffle, I wrote my response, went and did somethign, and then posted it before I noticed that I look like a parrot.

 

Oh well, hope it bears repeating - I think it does, though Eileen's response with her primary sources was delightful. I didn't realize Tim Longton had passed away - Karin's quote with no reference made me assume it was from a recent conversation.

 

His Ken is my Rick's great grandsire. And you've got to love a guy with a bitch named Becca. :rolleyes:

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I readily accept Tim Longton as an expert. I notice you give no citation for the "quote" you include -- where it was said and in what context. But in Tim Longton's 1976 book, The Sheep Dog: Its Work and Training, he said, "It cannot be stressed too strongly that if you want a work dog both parents should be work dogs" (p. 19). And these were his closing words (pp. 113-115):

 

My qoute Tim Longton 1969, Sheepdogs and their training

 

and to finish of your above qoute Eileen the full text was

Dont go for a certain line just because everybody else does,if you seek a work dog and not a future sire or dam pedigree is of small account there are poor performers in litters of great distinction and good ones from stock of no pedigree.

 

Huh? I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about here. Denise is one of the most ethical breeders imaginable. If you are making an accusation against her, spell it out! If you're making an accusation against the ABCA, spell it out! Whatever accusation you're making, I doubt it can be from first-hand knowledge, which is perhaps why you're being so vague and indirect. This just sounds like insult for the sake of insult.

 

 

You are just jumping to conclusions here why you should imagine that I was referring to Denise???

If you want to have the details please feel free to PM me and I will give you all the details, I did not wish to post websites on a list were the person referred to was not a member and unable to explain herslef fully in person. Not an insult to anybody at all just a statement of fact.

 

CL likely originated from a genetic mutation, which became concentrated through inbreeding by conformation breeders to fix "desirable" conformation traits.

 

 

A genetic mutation, maybe but not that likely, Storage didease is seen in many species including humans and many varied breeds of dogs.

 

 

Karin

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If you were referring to me specifically, then you obviously have me confused with someone else. If this is some random allegation toward ABCA, then I think you're opening a pretty big can of worms to start comparing individual cases in any registry vs another. I think I have a pretty good idea now of who you mentor is.

 

 

No the "your" was a generalisation, however the case I was referring to is fact.......

LOL I really think if you have an idea who my "mentor" is I think you are probably way off beam! Firstly I do not live in the USA, and secondly I do not have a mentor, rather I have spent the past 25 years living with, competing with and breeding Border Collies. I listen talk and observe with an open mind, this is one reason I object to some posters idealogical stance and closed minds, never listening to somebody elses point of view without getting derogitory or taking the attitude"I am right" "you are wrong"

 

Karin

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karrider wrote...

 

...LOL I really think if you have an idea who my "mentor" is I think you are probably way off beam! Firstly I do not live in the USA, and...

 

Tuck's BCBuddy asks...

 

And you think this is open minded? Oh that's right, since Denise is from NC, USA, she can't possibly know anything or anyone on the other side of the pond, eh?

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OK, I?m back.

 

It?s a simple question. Please answer yes or no ? In general, all other factors aside, do you believe you have the same chance of getting a good working dog from parents six generations from working stock as you would from working, proven parents?

 

One thing I?ve noticed conformation people love doing in these arguments is to trot out one or two examples of something as proof it?s true in general. Let?s talk odds here because happy accidents aside, what is generally true tends to bear more weight here in the real world.

 

Regarding who brought CL into Australian border collies: I?m sure the original mutation came through an import from the UK, since that?s where they came from. But there?s a difference in having one gene copy of a rare recessive mutation in one dog and having it manifest itself as a fatal disease in the gene pool. Please read the following carefully because you seem not to understand the genetic principles here. You, yourself, are estimated to have 4-6 harmful recessive mutations in your germline (reproductive) DNA. IOW, you could even be carrying a CL-like mutation or any other of the many, many metabolic gene mutations. We all carry these mutations. There are millions of variations and they are mostly rare and spread out in the gene pool. Therefore, these rare and varied mutations are usually not a problem unless you mate with a close relative, also carrying this same mutation, i.e., inbreed. The inbreeding common with conformation showing increased and concentrated this CL mutation in the gene pool until it became a genetic disease in the breed. Although the carrier rate for CL in the Australian imports is not known, since there are affected dogs in their gene pool, it is undoubtedly much higher than in the working border collie in the country (contact me privately if you would like the Hardy Weinberg equation to estimate this). Therefore, a number of Australian conformation dogs have brought this gene into the country. Crossing into these lines will increase this mutation in the working gene pool. As it increases, the chances pups will be born having two recessive versions of this mutation increase, and eventually, affected dogs from working lines will start showing up. By that time, the carrier rate will be surprisingly high in the working dogs.

 

As far as mixed breeds being admitted into ABCA ?there's no shame to this that someone's web site needs to be kept secret. The working border collie standard is work. If a dog works to a border collie standard, then it is a border collie. Any dog meeting the work standard can apply for an ROM and be accepted into ABCA, just like any dog meeting the border collie work standard in the UK can apply for an ROM through ISDS. I?m guessing this will be a hard concept for you to understand or accept because your personal emphasis in border collies does not appear to be for work.

 

And finally, I have no idea what you?re talking about regarding the two sire litter. It never ceases to amaze me how, like magnets, people using cheap shots and negative, unsubstantiated mudslinging tactics attract followers. And I don?t just mean in your country. And yes, I did realize you lived in the UK when I made the mentor comment. Your arguments remind me a lot of someone there.

 

Denise

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I listen talk and observe with an open mind, this is one reason I object to some posters idealogical stance and closed minds, never listening to somebody elses point of view without getting derogitory or taking the attitude"I am right" "you are wrong"

 

I guess I should just accept with an open mind your view that one doesn't need to select for working ability. I'm sure you know more about it than me.

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