Conformation Herding Champion

[Doug Boyder]

Border Collies are first and foremost, herding dogs. Conformation dogs are beautiful, alert, graceful and balanced, but they are not true Border Collies if they cannot herd.

 

Does anyone own a beautiful Herding BC, also titled in Conformation? If not, why not? Why can't all working Border Collies also conform to a Border Collie Standard? The way I see it, only the Herding community can save the Conformation Border Collie, and they should feel obligated to do this for moral reasons.

 

Isolating the Conformation community will cause more harm than good. Herding breeders should lead by example, showing REAL working dogs, and forcing breeders to prove their worth in Herding Trials before eligibility for the Conformation ring! Every true Border Collie Conformation champion should be able to herd, and should also conform to the Breed Standard. If "looks don't matter" all that much to the Herding community, then it shouldn't be too much trouble to search for dual Working/Conformation dogs for their own breeding programmes.

 

I believe that Conformation Herding Champions are the key for securing the future for the Border Collie breed.

[SoloRiver]

An appearance-based standard has about as much to do with selecting for premier working dogs, as requiring a specific shoe size has to do with selecting political leaders.

 

Saying that a dog must be "beautiful" (isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder, anyway?) to be a good Border Collie makes no sense, because the Border Collie is a working dog, and physical beauty has no impact on the quality of a working dog. Why cut down the gene pool of working Border Collies by only breeding the "pretty" ones? Should the President of the United States (or Australia, as the case may be) be required to wear a size ten shoe?

 

I don't need an appearance-based standard to know a Border Collie when I see one. Just as toy dog breeders are not concerned with their dogs' lack of size, true Border Collie aficionados are not concerned with their dogs' lack of luscious coat or perfectly tipped ears or degree of stop, because none of these things has anything to do with "type" in this breed of dog. Border Collie type is defined by performance, not looks. Why must all breeds of dog be forced to conform to the kennel club paradigm?

 

Taking "real" Border Collies into the breed ring will accomplish nothing, because the entire point is that it isn't about looks. As far as requiring a performance criterion for bench showing -- well I don't know how it works where you are, but the poor, misguided AKC "parent club" attempted to install one -- and the AKC said "no way, Jose." Even if they'd said yes, the odds that the performance test would be rigorous enough to have any meaning are very, very low. Personally, I think the AKC dogs are better off without the rubber stamp. Why misrepresent what they are and what they're meant to be?

 

I'm not sure why you think the herding community owes anything to the conformation community. If the conformation folks are driving their dogs into a ditch, it's out of willful ignorance because god knows enough people have tried to explain the folly of their ways -- that's what the "Border Collie wars" were all about. The Barbie Collie people are not stupid and they don't want to be educated -- they have a different vision of what their dogs are, and that's that. If it's big and fluffy and boofy and doesn't know the difference between a sheep and a lamppost, that's not my problem. Let them have what they want. We'll keep what we want, and they'll get what they deserve. They've been warned.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Well, your heart is in the right place anyway.

 

The thing is, breeding for appearance has nothing to do with how the breed was created to begin with. So why change the focus now, when there is a good chance that doing so would change the charactaristics of the breed we love so much?

 

Here's an example I've always loved. The LA LAkers want to find and draft the world's best basketball players. But what would you think if they said, BUT, they must also be blonde and blue eyed and between six feet one inch and six feet eight inches? Ridiculous, right? So is selection for any physical characteristic other than overall health, when you want a dog that will perform to a certain standard.

 

Here's the other dirty little secret. It doesn't matter if the Kennel Club "standards" reflect what a real working dog looks like. What wins points in the end is what a judge will "put up". It is hard to impossible to get past the prejudices of a judge who expects show dogs to be bouncy, fluffy, immaculate, and (in herding breeds) substantially built with a certain structure that has nothing to do with working ability.

 

The AKC is not interested in preserving the working heritage of the Border Collie, quite the opposite. The BCSA folks already tried to get the AKC to link even ANY performance title to Championships but they were summarily squashed.

 

Finally, why is it up to those who have cherished the working dog for generations to prove something that has no meaning - that their dogs meet some kind of arbitrary prettiness standard? I think rather it is up to those who intially chose to reject that to prove that their dogs live up to their breed's heritage standard on the trial field. THEN you will have your dual champions - until then I'll be waiting to match my ugly non-standard dogs against them, on the trial field.

 

Regards,

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Well, what Melanie said. We kinda said the same thing though.

 

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Because showing border collies in conformation is pointless and wrong. No one who really understands the breed would want to do it.

 

>

 

Because they don't. Rebecca's example states it eloquently. Why can't all good basketball players be blond, blue-eyed and between 6'1" and 6'8"? Because they aren't. If you care about quality basketball, you won't choose your team solely from those who meet that description. If you do, you'll be beaten by those who didn't.

 

>

 

What on earth "moral reasons" could there be for trying to save something (the Conformation Border Collie) which shouldn't exist in the first place?

 

Real border collies are bred to herd livestock. They were developed to have certain abilities, not to look a certain way. IOW, they are bred to a working standard, not an appearance standard. Some misguided people decided to take their border collies and try to make them into show dogs, judged by how they look. Those who did this are totally and solely responsible for what happens to their dogs. They chose a path that leads to an abyss. We who value the dogs for their working ability are under no obligation to follow them off the cliff.

[Rave]

Taking quotes from Doug Boyder's webpage [http://members.iinet.net.au/~dboyder/Boyde...es/index.html]:

"A show standard has been developed to define and enhance the characteristics

of the Border Collie. Upright ears and short hair are not desired characteristics

for the show Border Collie because they are believed to detract from the

"kindly" appearance of the dog. "

 

"Responsible Border Collie breeders will include Titles and Awards in their Pedigrees because they add to the value of the Border Collie as a healthy and intelligent working dog."

 

And from the Australian Nat'l Kennel Council standard to which you link:

"On the other hand prick ears are considered to give too harsh an appearance and drop ears to detract from the intelligent expression required."

 

 

All of the above I find quite comical (as the owner of a prick-eared smooth coat), but also a sad reflection of the conformation world as a whole. The conformation world is the one isolating itself by creating a separate breed, true Border Collie breeders haven't changed a thing.

 

I can certainly understand the comments Doug made. But what I don't see listed on his website is any mention of his dog's herding ability, or any titles in anything for that matter. So what I don't understand is why he bred his female without first proving her herding ability, since that's what we wants...conformation dogs with herding ability?

 

-Laura

[Denise Wall]

I can't really add anything to the thoughtful comments already made to Doug's request. It seems pointless anyway. People seem to stop listening when it means they can't do what they want to do.

 

I do want to bring up something else though. Working border collies have one of the least, if not the least inbred gene pool of all dog breeds. This is a big reason that border collies as a breed are healthier than most other dog breeds. Conformation breeding, by its very nature (cookie-cutter looks), rewards inbreeding practices.

 

We all (dogs, humans, animals) have harmful mutations that are kept naturally diluted in the gene pool by non-inbred matings. The inbreeding common in conformation breeding brings these harmful mutations to the surface and expands them in the gene pool.

 

Ceroid Lipofuscinosis (CL) is typical of the type of harmful mutation that becomes a problem in a breed due to inbreeding. It is fatal by the age of two years. The Australian border collie imports so popular in the conformation ring have bought CL into this country. So far, there have been no substantiated reports of this disease in the working border collie community. However, those interbreeding their working border collies with conformation stock will soon remedy this happy fact.

 

Other genetic diseases such as Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome can also be brought into the working gene pool from the conformation bred border collies.

 

Just thought this was something those both in and out of the closet about breeding thier working border collies to conformation champions and taking stud pups should be aware of, even if they don't care enough about the breed to stop doing it.

 

Denise

[nancy]

These are honest quotations?!?

 

"Upright ears and short hair are not desired characteristics for the show Border Collie because they are believed to detract from the "kindly" appearance of the dog....On the other hand prick ears are considered to give too harsh an appearance and drop ears to detract from the intelligent expression required."

 

Geez, does that mean the sheep (or cattle) will not respond to the dog if its ears aren't kindly or intelligent?

 

Somebody better tell the sheep. Seems to me I met a fox-eared smooth coated border collie in Yorkshire who kept both sheep and bullock in line. Would a "pretty" one have done just so much better?

 

Handsome is as handsome does, fella.

[HKM's Mom]

Doug,

I feel I can offer up some light to your question since I was invloved in AKC conformation years ago. When I was in my teens I worked for a professional handler. The "what's in" of conformation shows changes every couple of years. When I first started working there Dobermans (I am only using Dobes as an example, it happens to many breeds) were big, solid dogs with strong personalities, and were considered a noble breed. A well-known Dobie hit the circuit with a famous Dobie handler and he was winning all over the place. He was a thinner, more refined dog whose personality was not the best by any means. Because of his handler, he won several shows (yes this happens I know from personal experience). Well, the first thing to happen was that everyone wanting to breed to a "well-known stud dog" bred their bitches to him. No one cared that he was a nasty dog who passed his temperment on to his offspring. Second thing was that everyone started showing more refined Dobes in their attempt to win. Judges started picking these dogs and within four years the winning dogs looked nothing like the winning dogs of the past. This trend in the breed has continued and today's Dobe has a head like a pencil, most are VERY flighty, and they would no more protect you from an intruder than your cat would. The working ability was lost to the current trend in the show ring. This is one reason why people dislike the show breeders.

If you are trying to win in a popular breed you spend hours on keeping the coat nice. Our coated dogs had their feathering wrapped everyday, some lived on wire bottomed cages to save their coat from staining and the hairs from breaking off, and a couple were even "stuffed" when they couldn't handle the stress of the show ring. Stuffed is when you force feed a dog to keep it's weight on. Do you want to pass these things down to future generations? Conformation at that level is big business. Love of the breed doesn't drive the breeder's behavior because the show ring has to. If they don't keep up with the current trends, maintain a perfect coat, etc their dogs won't win and they won't sell pups. No selling of pups, no money. No money, no way to travel the show circuit. No travel no points, no CH, may as well get out of the business. No working dog with his "working dog" coat can compete against the "perfect" coat of a show dog. No show dog will survive the daily requirements of being caged in a wire kennel except to come out and have their coat done. A working dog would go crazy!!! Working dogs don't want to spend days upon days in a crate traveling from one show to the next because they are bred to "WORK" not to sit mindlessly in a box until it's their turn to be groomed, go potty, or hit the show ring. Working dogs break teeth, get scars from whatever, and these things will cause youto lose a placing in the AKC show ring.

 

I can say these things because I made my living working in that environment for a few years. The dogs, like Goldens, that do have a coat and earn their field trial CH get their CH first, then the coat requirement can relax and they spend time in the field. I know this because I also, I used to train with a well-known Golden person.

 

If the AKC had a policy like the American Bulldog groups, where the standard allows forty or so pounds to each gender, but it's only a guideline, and it says things like, "No grooming is allowed other than washing (no trimming of whiskers, feet, etc), and broken teeth are not to be penalized" I think the AKC breeds could be better preserved. AB judges haven't forgotten that our primary goal is to maintain the working ability of the breed. The thing I'd like to see is what Germany has in place for the GSD. A dog MUST have it's Schutzhund One, at a minimum, before it can be bred. It must have passing hips scores to. That is how they have preserved the GSD. Their conformation shows look at stifles, shoulders, mvmt. and the conformation is judged based on structure and how it affects their ability to work. Nothing about "pretty" is mentioned. If American would adopt that requirement for our working breeds we could preserve them. Of course that won't happen for many reasons.

 

Having "been there and done that" in the AKC I can tell you that I don't agree that the AKC ruins a breed, but I can agree that a breeder and judges do. I hope this helps shed some light on why working and conformation people do not see eye to eye. It's simply a matter of preserving a working breed for what it's intended to do.

[ccnnc]

Hello all and for what it's worth....

 

I drilled a little deeper on the topic starter's website and found this...

 

http://members.iinet.net.au/~dboyder/Boyde....html#offspring

 

a complete pedigree of the poster's dog going back to the mid 1970's... there are a multitude of show and other titles to be found, but not a single mention of any of these dogs being anywhere within fifty miles of livestock.

 

The proudly presented photographs tell the story -- the saddest part of the presentation is the total lack of life in the dog's eyes, all you see is a dull stare.

 

I guess this is the future the show folk want.

 

CCnNC

[SoloRiver]

I guess it just goes to show you that beauty IS in the eye of the beholder -- even from a purely aesthetic perspective none of those dogs are my cup of tea. I don't like the short-and-stubby, I don't like the tons and tons of coat, but mostly I don't like the heads -- the little round foreheads, the button eyes, the short, spaniel-like muzzles.

 

I prefer my dogs to look decidedly lupine.

 

 

Even if I were misguided enough to breed Border Collies to an appearance-based standard, you better bet that my interpretation would look nothing like these Australian dogs. And that's the problem with appearance standards, isn't it? It's all about interpretation, with little to no objectivity, and therefore eminently subject to the whims of fashion.

[Sue R]

AMEN to all the replies to this original post!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, neither my bitch nor my future stud come anywhere close to the Australian standard, which I read for the first time, referenced on that site.

 

Jen: 16" tall, just barely. Smooth coat, prick ears, pretty sure she's slightly cowhocked as most dogs in her line are (never checked to be honest). Long rat face; hard, wolfish expression. So, I guess I should spay her in spite of her practically perfect eye, line, balance, and flanks? That combination of biddability and keenness that has already caught the eye of several top trainers? The fact that she comes from three generations of healthy breeding stock varified both on "the hill" and in the lab?

 

Let's look at Rick: 18.5 inches. Smooth coat, black/white/tri with tan expressed patchily through the coat, including his back! I forget what it's called but it's a hallmark of his line. Hardly any white, one ear pricked, one ear down (I guess he's half kindly disposed to stock). His eyes, burning yellow, are those of a raving obsessive maniac. Definitely cowhocked though otherwise solidly built. I suppose that all the top handlers who have tried to buy him from me didn't know a dog worthless for working when they saw one - they should have asked the local kennel club judge. They could have told them that his normal grinding gait when he's bringing sheep is too tense, and his darting movement on the flank is too fast to see, too confusing. You need a symmetrically marked dog that FLOWS so you can see that your dog is correct - doesn't have anything to do with what the stock are doing, of course. Oh, yes, and you know those awful working folks don't test their dogs' hips or CERF eyes (though Rick has had both, and elbows too).

 

OK, I'm done.

[SoloRiver]

Boy, if that's not proof that it doesn't matter how carefully you try to write a standard, the boofy dogs always win. Almost every line in that standard makes some reference to the Border Collie as a working dog; knowing what the Australian conformation dogs actually are, rather than what the writers of the standard fantasized they might be, makes reading the standard a comic exercise. It also illustrates quite clearly that judges put up what they like, rather than what's described. For example: the coat should not be so profuse as to obscure the outline of the body? What a joke -- I can't even begin to tell what those Barbie Collies are shaped like under all that hair -- and that's an impression that comes from meeting them in person, not just pictures.

 

The standard does kind of explain what happened to the Australian dogs, though -- clearly the image was of a "kindly," inoffensive, peaches and cream sort of "working dog" who'd be supremely harmless and polite to the livestock, kind of the Golden Retriever of herding breeds. That's not my image of a working Border Collie. I see a serious, businesslike animal who uses intensity and veiled menace balanced with a sense of fairness in order to control livestock. What they describe better fits my image of, say, a Sheltie. If the standard had been written with my image of the Border Collie in mind, maybe the Barbie Collie breeders would have ended up with wolves.

 

Really fluffy wolves that come in fashion colors.

 

As I would have said in high school, gag me with a spoon.

 

The AKC "parent club" for "Border Collies" (gosh, I can't even write this without using the quotes) recently wrote and passed a revised standard with the express purpose of selecting for a more "moderate" dog that could actually possibly do the job for which the dogs are supposedly intended -- in other words, to encompass "real working dogs" and also to select against the heavy, stubby, boofy Australian Barbie Collie type (which is why a number of conformation breeders railed mightily against the revision of the standard). Reading the Australian KC standard should have been an illustrative exercise, since a standard that supposedly describes a working dog is what produced the fluffy, boofy, non-functional dogs in the first place.

[Doug Boyder]

BC's did not evolve naturally. They were selected and bred by humans to enhance certain characteristics. We all know what a marathon runner looks like, and I doubt we could confuse one with a sprinter. Conformation breeders produce healthy, balanced dogs, physically capable of doing the demanding work of herding.

 

Quite a few of my BC relatives have been placed in working homes, and others have been Herding Tested. I look forward to getting my own dogs involved in herding soon.

 

Thank you to everyone! I read every word of what you had to say, and have taken your constructive advice and comments onboard.

[ccnnc]

Mr. Boyder wrote...

 

"Conformation breeders produce healthy, balanced dogs, physically capable of doing the demanding work of herding."

 

I reply...

 

Show me one.

 

CCnNC

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Maybe, maybe not. This is a claim that's often made, and rarely proved. But in any case, physical capability is the least of it. There are many dogs, of many breeds and mixed breeds, who have the physical requisites for herding. It's what's bred in the head that makes the difference between them and a real working border collie. And that can't be assessed in the breed ring, and is much harder to come by than the physical characteristics.

 

I enjoyed your website. You obviously put a lot of work into it, and you obviously love your dogs. I disagree with what you wrote, but thanks for posting.

[Denise Wall]

Hi Doug,

 

You seem sincere. I like that.

 

Quite a few of my BC relatives have been placed in working homes, and others have been Herding Tested. I look forward to getting my own dogs involved in herding soon.

 

I'm sorry but this does not mean to us what it apparently means to you. "Working home" can mean anything. Many times it's basically a pet dog owned by people with a little land. The work standard does not generally need to be very high in what most AKC people term working homes. "Herding tested" is actually even less impressive. "Working dog" means more than a dog that will stand in the same area with stock for five minutes. There's just much much more to "working dog" than that. A conformation analogy would be claiming a dog is conformation champion quality because the shape of its toenails is right.

 

The conformation world is all about pretense -- the superficial appearance (in someone's non educated mind) that a dog can do a certain thing, not the actual goods. The claims of actually being able to work are generally just more pretense. In the conformation world, it's only important to be able to say your dog can work in order to be politically correct.

 

Livestock people actually need these dogs for real work. Think about that. This is not some doggy sport made up just to have fun with your dog. If all of the conformation border collies suddenly disappeared, what real impact would that have on the world? None. If all of the working border collies suddenly disappeared, there would be a negative impact on the livestock operations and society would be affected. We can't mess around breeding them for the things that aren't important in conformation standards and current trends in colors. All of the attention needs to go to breeding them to be sound, useful working dogs.

 

What we care about is dogs that really work. This is not a pretend world like the conformation world.

 

I would encourage you to get out to some ISDS type stockdog competitions and see what the real thing looks like. We would be happy to help you find somewhere near you to see real working dogs.

 

Keep reading and writing.

 

Denise

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Try thinking about it this way.

 

I take my kids to a conformation show. What's the worst that could happen if the dogs aren't "performing" well? They see a few tears on the sidelines and disgruntled judges.

 

I take my kids "herding". What could happen if the dogs are perfoming well? Property damaged. Dog, livestock, and yes people can be injured!

 

I have a real life example showing the difference between a correct and incorrect dog and what can happen. A few years ago, I brought my pet bred dog to my trainer friend for an afternoon of working. He was using my dog to divide the sheep at the fenceline. The dog slashed his flank, as he often did (and still does) - that means when he went around the sheep he also pushed on them, startling them (stock should remain stable when the dog circles - that's a correct, "square flank" and well-bred dogs do this naturally). The flock bolted and 125 sheep were headed 50 yards up the fenceline to where I was standing holding my baby while watching. My dog would not be called off - he was now in chase mode - so my trainer sent his dog. Just before the sheep got to us (I was blocked in the corner and could only hope to protect my baby with my own body), his dog whipped down the fenceline correctly and placed herself between the stampeding sheep and us, stopping them, settling them, and turning them back to her master (and into the face of my dog who was still following them). A few well-placed threats sent them back over my dog, allowing me to get to safety.

 

Since then I have NEVER considered "herding" as something to be taken lightly. There is a reason that Border Collies are bred the way they are - there are specific instincts like pace, square flanks, and other manifestations of "stock sense" - you CANNOT see these anywhere other than full time stock work and/or ISDS trialing (preferably both).

 

What commands do you suppose Jan's handler used to tell his dog what to do in the above example? Because of the terrain, he could not see us, the lead sheep, or the dog once he sent her, so "shhhhh" was the one and only command he COULD give. Besides, he was busy trying to catch my dog after he sent his dog.

 

Jan knew just what to do, because she had been bred to go to their heads in a manner that disturbed the stock as little as possible, and turn them back efficiently to her master. She also had the guts to drive between the whole stampeding flock and the fence, and the natural power to hold all those frightened sheep and put sense back in their heads. How can you tell in a breed ring or even an instinct test that your dog has these natural abilities?

 

Jan is a superlative bitch in many other ways, but I'd expect any mature, appropriately bred and trained sheepdog to be able to perform the above feat. The next dog I bought was from her lines, and the next pup I got is her granddaughter. The pup is already following in her granddam's pawprints. Breeding matters.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

PS, that was the last time my trainer let kids in any area where he was training!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

PPS: Jan is about 17.5 inches tall, VERY cow hocked, rat faced, drop eared, crazy eyed, and smooth coated. Guess her owner should have her spayed. Any judge worth his salt could tell right away that she couldn't work sheep properly.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Doug,

 

Thanks for starting an interesting discussion topic. I too applaud your sincerity and politeness.

 

BC's did not evolve naturally. They were selected and bred by humans to enhance certain characteristics.

 

Yes, absolutely. Performance characteristics. People who need, depend, rely on real working dogs don't select breeding animals on the basis of whether they look like they could work. They select animals who have actually proven themselves through work. The fact remains that the best way to produce functional animals is by actually testing function.

 

We all know what a marathon runner looks like, and I doubt we could confuse one with a sprinter. Conformation breeders produce healthy, balanced dogs, physically capable of doing the demanding work of herding.

 

I have this really tall friend who can palm a basketball with one hand. He looks like he should be a superstar, but he sucks at basketball. He doesn't think fast enough on the court and he just doesn't enjoy the game itself.

 

I look like I should be great at gymnastics, but I can barely do a backbend.

 

My rescued Border Collie is a beautiful dog (with loads of coat, tipped ears, and no cow hocks) who conforms quite nicely to the Australian standard and, I've been told, he might even be able to finish in the American breed ring. He is far less useful on sheep than my smooth-coated, prick-eared Welsh-bred bitch who sometimes resembles a hyena.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea. Why select for dogs who look "as if" they could herd, when it is possible to select for dogs who actually herd?

 

Quite a few of my BC relatives have been placed in working homes, and others have been Herding Tested. I look forward to getting my own dogs involved in herding soon.

 

When you say "working homes" and "Herding Tested," what do you mean? There are Pomeranians who can pass an "instinct test." I adore Pomeranians, but they ain't sheepdogs.

 

Thank you to everyone! I read every word of what you had to say, and have taken your constructive advice and comments onboard.

 

Thank you!

[Bill Fosher]

I look like I would be great at sitting in a barcalounger drinking a beer.

 

Umm...

 

Never mind.

[blackacre]

Hmmmm Bill,

Form following function?

A.

[karrider]

Interesting discussion but I always have to bite my tongue a little when people are so defensive regarding the possibility that god forbid a "conformation"bred dog could actually work sheep(or cattle) for that matter, just as not every "working bred" collie is capable of working, by the same token not every conformation bred collie is a total no brain.......I breed not purely for herding(gosh go shoot me!!!) my pups go for all types of work, although the die hards don't call SAR work, and agility/obedience is only a hobby but several of my pups have gone to working homes, PROPER homes you would call them (eg)Kali a Choc Merle at 7 years old is still actively working 500+ sheep on the Isle of Sheppey, he was bought by a young trainee shepherd who had been told that his colouring was maybe softer on the lambs, not my words and what the theory behind this was I can say,but needless to say Kali proved himself not only with the lambs but the sheep!.

Karin