Journey Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 While I applaud the ABCA for it's stance against the AKC show collie I am left with many questions after reading the letter and the news about reciprocal registrations between ISDS and ABCA. If ISDS isn?t verifying with ABCA the registration of a dog/bitch when accepting litter registration how will they know if ABCA has or hasn?t de-registered them? I was left with the ?impression? from AKC that they will accept ISDS papers as part of their ?foreign? registry process forever without a reciprocal agreement. So what?s to stop the show person from registering a litter with ISDS and then going into AKC? This loophole circumvents the reason for ABCA to de-register to begin with. A new pup goes through and gets ISDS papers, goes into AKC, gets a championship ? was never registered with ABCA to begin with??..but the sire and dam were. Defeats the purpose imo. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Karen, I agree that the ABCA should notify the ISDS of all de-registrations, and I assume it will do so. If they reciprocally recognize each other's registrations, then presumably they reciprocally recognize each other's de-registrations as well. I'm not sure I understand your exact scenario here, however. For a dog/bitch to become a show champion, s/he must already be registered with the AKC. Therefore his/her offspring are already entitled to AKC registration -- they don't need to go through ISDS to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 I'm not sure I understand your exact scenario here, however. For a dog/bitch to become a show champion, s/he must already be registered with the AKC. Therefore his/her offspring are already entitled to AKC registration -- they don't need to go through ISDS to get it They need ISDS to get into AKC though. If a ABCA registered Sire has a litter, they can then be registered with ISDS (and appropriate paperwork) and then they can be registered with AKC. No reciprocal necessary between ISDS and AKC. This then allows a ABCA registered dog to have offspring with "champions" in AKC and there is no recourse with ABCA since they were by passed and ISDS was used. But I suppose there is no fool proof or safe method to keep the working and show dogs separate. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 The scenario you outline with the ISDS is also true of the ABCA. The AKC currently accepts dogs from either registry as purebred Border collies. So I don't think the ISDS agreement will change anything. It might, I suppose, provide a way for a truly dishonest breeder to try to "launder" pups from a de-registered ABCA/AKC parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Karen, I agree that the ABCA should notify the ISDS of all de-registrations, and I assume it will do so. If they reciprocally recognize each other's registrations, then presumably they reciprocally recognize each other's de-registrations as well. _________________________________________________ Eileen, you can't simply impose ABCA's Board decisions on another registry. Just because ABC and ISDS recognize each other's registration procedures, does not mean that they operate their registries the same, or wish to. I do know that there are ISDS registered dogs in Britain that are Breed Champsions or Show Champions over there, as you see dual registered Border Collies - ISDS and KC registered all the time when you scan United Kennel Border Collie websites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 > Karen, they would be in AKC already, or they wouldn't have show championships, and would not have been de-registered from ABCA (or refused registration by ABCA). I just don't get your point. This is not a method of keeping dogs out of AKC -- there is no way to do that as long as AKC keeps the stud book open. This is a way of getting show dogs out of the ABCA. > Of course not, Northof49, but another registry can enter into a voluntary agreement with the ABCA to give certain privileges to ABCA-registered dogs. If the dogs are not registered with the ABCA, they don't get the privileges. I don't know the exact details of the ISDS/ABCA agreement (I just recently became an ABCA director, and the agreement had already been made), but there's no reason why the agreement could not be as I suggested, and every reason why it should be. How ISDS chooses to operate with respect to dogs who are otherwise eligible for ISDS registration (i.e., who wouldn't be coming in via ABCA registration) is an entirely different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Karen, they would be in AKC already, or they wouldn't have show championships, and would not have been de-registered from ABCA (or refused registration by ABCA). I just don't get your point. This is not a method of keeping dogs out of AKC -- there is no way to do that as long as AKC keeps the stud book open. This is a way of getting show dogs out of the ABCA. Eileen, when the AKC closes the books, they will not close for ISDS dogs. With the new agreement with ABCA and ISDS the pups from an ABCA sire/dam can be registered with ISDS and then get into AKC. So, if a litter is ISDS registered, via an ABCA sire/dam they will get into AKC, can get a champion, and no adverse effects from ABCA even though the sire/dam were/are ABCA since the litter went via ISDS. Now, with a ISDS dog can't they in turn get an ABCA number via their ISDS registration (which went round the world to get there) hence you could now have an ISDS registered pup with an AKC champion get a ABCA number based on the reciprocal agreement all ready in place. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 > No, because they are ineligible for ABCA registration by virtue of their conformation championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 << Now, with a ISDS dog can't they in turn get an ABCA number via their ISDS registration . . . >> No, because they are ineligible for ABCA registration by virtue of their conformation championship. ________________________________________________ Ah, but how many people do you think are going to honour the system if they can get around it? A lot of dog's ABCA names are different than their AKC names. Also, people can be dishonest and not indicate on their ABCA papers that any of the dogs in the pedigree have conformation Champions, and you have to hope to catch them by keeping track of which Border Collies are receiving their conformation champions. I have no problem with ABCA's decision and it will never affect me, but I think it is going to be hard to enforce. Also, has ABCA considered that it may possibly become embroiled in a lawsuit about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Northof49, This is a funny situation. You say you have no problem with ABCA's decision, yet what you write appears to be attacking it. I DO have a problem with ABCA's decision -- I think they should have adopted Committee Option B or C instead of essentially bypassing the committee and dismissing most of the on-the-record membership feedback in making their final decision -- but what I am writing appears to be defending it. ABCA will enforce the decision as best it can. AKC championships are readily ascertainable and pretty widely known. Quite a few people have volunteered to help in the effort. And I think most people are basically honest -- certainly honest enough not to want to be caught in a lie. And yes, nowadays the possibility of a lawsuit has to be taken into account any time any decision is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 This is a funny situation. You say you have no problem with ABCA's decision, yet what you write appears to be attacking it ______________________________________________ Eileen - no I am not attacking it - just pointing out that there some loopholes - and people that would have no qualms about being dishonest if they want to register dogs with ABCA that would not otherwise qualify, will take advantage of them. Identifying possible loopholes and weaknesses are necesarry in order to take proper measure to close them or minimize them. Americans are prone to sue for anything in Court, and I was just wondering if ABCA has considered the possibility of someone deciding to challenge this decision through the court system. It doesn't matter if it this kind of decision, or a new law of some kind that comes into effect. If it will have any kind of adverse effects on a person, the first thing that they do is see if there are any ways to get around it. That's the nature of us humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Perhaps because I'm a lawyer I think of it as downright impossible that any decision of this kind would be made without awareness that a lawsuit might result. It goes without saying -- people file suit for all kinds of things without regard to whether the suit has any merit or not. Also because I'm a lawyer with a lot of litigation experience, I think that pretty much anyone who voluntarily goes to court when he could avoid it is buying and paying for a huge chunk of misery, no matter what the final outcome. But yes, I know that people often do it, and I'm sure the folks who made this decision know it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I was not trying to get at anything other than the fact that with the new agreement the ABCA can be cut out entirely and pups can come to the AKC with ISDS numbers from ABCA parents. I guess I don't understand where a lawsuit could arrise though. Is registering with ABCA a "right"? What if they folded? I myself don't agree with what they went with as for de-registering. It won't stop the flow, won't be retroactive (from what I've been told) and unless ISDS agrees to not register or de-register what's the point? While the committee had many suggestions this result came from out of the blue and I find it ironic that it coincides with the agreement with ISDS. Maybe instead of re-inventing the wheel we should have followed ISDS example on how they handle KC registered dogs. Eileen, even with a ISDS dog with an AKC number & champion, people know ABCA won't accept "that pedigree" but they will accept the ISDS one for registration. I just don't see how all of this will be enforced. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 > There is no valid basis for a lawsuit. People file baseless lawsuits all the time, however, and lose. > Luckily you don't have to worry about how it will be enforced. Enforcement is ABCA's responsibility. If you don't believe de-registration should occur, why would you worry over whether ABCA will be able to enforce it effectively? AKC championships are not gained in secret, and most people who get one want it to be known. Show results are public knowledge. The Gazette is publicly available. ABCA has always accepted ISDS registered dogs and their offspring. There is no change in that. But if the ISDS dog is a conformation champion, registration will be refused, or if the dog has already been registered, it will be de-registered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Hunt Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Karen, I am 99% sure a BC must be born outside the US to be accepted into AKC based on ISDS registration. I don't think a US born, ISDS registered BC would get in. Julia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I am 99% sure a BC must be born outside the US to be accepted into AKC based on ISDS registration. I don't think a US born, ISDS registered BC would get in. Julia, Interesting point. I don't know about that at all. Does AKC really look at where a pup is born? Or just the pedigree they come in with? I wonder where to look to find out though. I'll see what I can find. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Maybe instead of re-inventing the wheel we should have followed ISDS example on how they handle KC registered dogs. Karen, Why do you always think ISDS does everything the right way and ABCA should just follow them? Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Every registry relies on the honesty of the people who are registering dogs. There's no way, except for a pair of signatures, that the AKC knows that CH Fluffy Duffer FUBAR PDQ is the sire of the litter it is registering. By signing the registration form for ABCA registration, you are stating that the pups were bred and born as stated and that they are eligible for inclusion in the ABCA studbook. If you wanted to lie and register poodles with the ABCA, you could probably get away with it. Does that mean the system is flawed? I don't think so. The presumption underlying the concern seems to be that people with conformation championships will want those dogs to be able to sire ABCA-registered litters. I doubt there will be much pressure along those lines. Someone who is so committed to show-ring titles to go through the steps to get a Champion title is probably not going to be too worried about being able to register offspring with the ABCA. They will be AKC all the way. After all, ABCA registration in and of itself doesn't qualify you for anything other than registering offspring. It's not like they couldn't run Fluffy in the National Finals if they qualified. Of course, they wouldn't be eligible for the prize money that the USBCC put up recently, but that would be small potatoes next to conformation champion stud fees and winnings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted December 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Why do you always think ISDS does everything the right way and ABCA should just follow them? I don't recall saying anything of that sort. Why do you say that? I thought ABCA was right in taking a stance. I also just happen to think the stance they took is very mild. Most of the show champions are "not" ABCA registered. What end goal is de-registering single dogs hoping to accomplish? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 What do you think they should have done, Karen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Hunt Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Originally posted by Journey:I am 99% sure a BC must be born outside the US to be accepted into AKC based on ISDS registration. I don't think a US born, ISDS registered BC would get in. Julia, Interesting point. I don't know about that at all. Does AKC really look at where a pup is born? Or just the pedigree they come in with? I wonder where to look to find out though. I'll see what I can find. Karen No, they care where it's born. ISDS is recognized as a foreign registry, ie. an acceptable registry for a foreign-born pup. ABCA is recognized as a domestic registry, ie. an acceptable registry for a US-born pup to come into AKC via the open registration. On the subject of identifying dual-registered breed champions, I don't see how this can be done. It is possible for first generation dogs, ie. those that enter AKC via open registration, since AKC requires the dog to be registered with the ABCA registered name. But, once that dog is registered with AKC, and bred to a similarly registered bitch, the resulting litter can be registered with both AKC and ABCA and the pups registered with different names. I just don't see how ABCA will be able to determine that AKC "CH I'm So Pretty" is also ABCA "Bob". Julia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Julia, every single one may not be "caught." I don't know of any law or rule where every single violator is caught -- people get away with murder, after all -- but that doesn't mean the law or rule shouldn't exist. The names of the owners of border collie conformation champions will be easy to learn, as will the DOB of the champions. If there is a name discrepancy, the ABCA will write the owner and ask if his/her Bob is the same dog as Ch. I'm So Pretty. Maybe some will lie, but most will not, if only because they live in the real world and have myriad acquaintances who know that Bob IS the same dog, and most people don't want to be viewed as liars, or risk exposure as liars. I think the relatively few people showing in conformation who genuinely care about preserving the working border collie and genuinely value the working registry will abide by the rule and stop showing. The vast majority of the other people who show their border collies in conformation and want to maintain their registration with the ABCA do so because they want to flourish ABCA registration as a working credential. This purpose is kind of defeated if they have to skulk around giving the dog two different names and pretending that it's two different dogs. It would sure put a crimp in the brags, website ads, and the like. I just don't think enforcement will be that difficult, but time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I don't recall saying anything of that sort. Why do you say that? Aren't you the same Karen who, back during the dual registration discussion on these boards, said ABCA should be using the same policies about CEA and other genetic eye problems as the ISDS? If not you're not the same Karen, sorry, my bad. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildairbc Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 "The vast majority of the other people who show their border collies in conformation and want to maintain their registration with the ABCA do so because they want to flourish ABCA registration as a working credential." Is this really true? Is this why they are so intent on maintaining dual registration? Sorry if I sound dim, but I have always wondered why the AKC "performance" folks were so all-fired about dual registration. So, now I know. They sure are counting on people to be stupid if this IS the rationale. Bonnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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