Brian Monkman Posted June 7, 2003 Report Share Posted June 7, 2003 I am posting this question here as I assume that the answers will be rooted in the culture and politics that have eveolved over time in the PC world. If this was the wqrong choice please point me in the right direction. For a long time I have wanted to get a border collie and take up herding as a hobby. I used to own briards but I found that these dogs really didn't lend themselves to well to being family companion dogs. (Maybe that isn't too fair - perhaps a more accurate statement would be that they don't take well to strangers and tend to be more of a "one person" dog.) From what I have seen I don't think that will really be too much of an issue with border collies. My question is this - given that I want to have both a companion dog and a herder should I go with purchasing a puppy from a breeder or going the rescue route? I am familiar with the challenges I might face with a rescue - so that isn't really an issue. If I do go with a rescue - what age shoold I not go beyond if I get a dog that has not had any exposure to herding? Thanks in advance. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_Davis Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Of course it's just opinion, and a rookie's at that, so take it with alot of salt, but -- since I believe it is not outside the realm of possibility that a rescue dog could become everything you currently want and need it to be (companion and hobby herder); and since rescue is such a beautiful and kind thing to do (and urgently needed); and since you might have to wait as long or even longer to get a new puppy herding ------- I would say that you should thoroughly examine the rescue option first, and get a puppy only if that won't work or when you can add a second dog. GDavis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 For many places, this would be a chancy thing. You're in an area though where if you're patient you could get a rescue dog raring to go out and work. I know of two rescues up that way that have people who can check prospects for potential, on sheep anyway. Check out Mid Atlantic Border Collie Rescue. There's a few terrific dogs on the site and I'm sure that there are dogs that are not listed yet as is usually the case with most rescue web sites. Good luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 And to repeat advice that I was given (but ignored)... A started dog might be an option. Some working folks help to pay the bills by starting young dogs and then selling them to people like you and me. Of course, all the givens about carefully selecting a breeder would still hold true, but if you took your time you could get a well-started dog that your family could enjoy for years to come, but who would not be as difficult as a pup to start herding. If you think you might really get the herding bug, I believe that it's best to find a dog or a pup that has been carefully bred and raised. On the other hand, there are no guarantees, even when selecting a pup from the creme de la creme. A started dog would take some of the guesswork out. You might not get a star, but you would likely get a dog with strong instinct and a reasonable amount of herding ability. You might spend a bit more in the beginning if you bought a started dog, but in the long run would spend less on lessons, training and clinics. Also, if you asked around you could get a nice dog and at the same time support one of our community's treasures: an experienced, ethical and knowledgable border collie breeder/handler. Hmm I used the word might at least five times in this post.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Monkman Posted June 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Margaret M Wheeler: And to repeat advice that I was given (but ignored)... Isn't that usually the way though. I have frequently made the same error - and will undoubtably do so again. Hmm I used the word might at least five times in this post.... Is there any other word that you can honestly use when it comes to our dogs? Thanks for your advice. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Monkman Posted June 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by brookcove: Check out Mid Atlantic Border Collie Rescue. Thanks - I checked out their website and gave her a call - left a message - will let you know how it works out. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Hi Brian, I am sort of in your area. There are many opportunities for herding in the mid-Atlantic region as long as you don't mind driving a bit. As far as where to get your dog, that depends on what your ultimate goal is. Frankly, if what you know you want is a dog you can compete with in USBCHA trials with a certain level of success (depending on your skills as a handler, of course) the only guaranteed route is to buy a trained dog. Even if you buy a well-bred pup, if you don't have sheep of your own or very regular access to same (I'm not talking once a week) it is very difficult to train a dog to that level. And even a well-bred pup may not turn out to be what you want on sheep. If you go the started dog route, get a lot of help from people you can trust when finding your dog. You may find good contacts to do so here. If you are interested in herding for fun, with the possibility of competing, but placing in trials is not a high priority, I would definitely go the rescue route. This is not to say that rescued dogs never become successful in trials, because some do, but you'll obviously have less of a guarantee than you would if you bought a started dog. We do get some nice dogs in rescue around here; the sad truth is that many dogs who end up in rescue are quite well bred (which means that some breeders need to be a lot more careful whe placing dogs and a lot more responsible about taking them back when their buyers don't want them anymore). And yes, there are rescue folks around here who can evaluate a dog's potential on sheep for you. I started herding with my first Border Collie, a rescued dog, and he has enough talent that he got me totally hooked. He will probably never trial, as he has anxiety issues that affect his confidence and performance when he is off his "home turf" (our trainer's field). I still work him, of course, and he has taught me a lot about handling a dog who is not "push button." When I decided to add a second dog I went the trained dog route, because I wanted to learn some of the finer points of handling (as in the equestrian disciplines, it is difficult to learn the finer points when working with an inexperienced or untrained animal), among other reasons. Fly has taught me a lot, and is a fantastic creature to boot. We are having great fun trialing. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Brian, Good luck in your search. I have one good friend who has lovely Briards, but she confirms your experience that they are not always the best family dogs. I often make the mistake of ignoring good advice. I'm glad I ignored this particular piece though. I hope to have a fair understanding of this herding thing in 15 or 20 years and figured that starting a pup was going to get me to the big picture faster, so that I could really start to learn... What I have learned so far: It's hard! I'm not particularly suited to it (my spatial reasoning sucks, I am a hefty 47 years old and unsuited to running backwards through mud)! My dog is absolutely suited to it and is quite good natured with regard to her herding delayed owner. At any rate, there's just no way to regret a decision that got me my Nell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Brian, if you've not had any herding experience and not any stock experience (which is how we started out) and you really want to compete in USBCHA herding I strongly recommend getting a retiring trial dog from a trainer/handler. Your learning process will be greatly improved if your dog already knows what it's doing. Another important piece of this puzzle is the right instructor for you. There are multiple choices of instructors within 4hrs of you, but not everyone will suit you. The key is to find the one with the teaching style that works for you. Clinics are a good way to sample instructors teaching style; these will typically allow spectators for a small fee. NEBCA (Northeast Border Collie Association) and VBCA (Virginia Border Collie Association) are good organizations for our area. Both have websites and both list upcoming events. Good luck on your journey, and welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 I think that would be a great idea too, Mark. I was wondering about the age factor though; he wants the dog for his family (I take this to mean fairly young children). I'm just wondering about the age. At what age are dogs usually retired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Retirement age varies with the reason. Some are retired due to health reasons; for example some dogs get to the point they can no longer run an Open course. But that doesn't neccessarly mean they won't be able to run a PN course. Some are retired due to flaws which make them less competative in an Open class, but these flaws may not be a problem in the lower classes. Based upon the varied reasons for retirement, the age would vary widely. My guess is generally somewhere from 7 years on. BTW there are handler/trainers who would love to find good retirement homes for their older dogs. They will know the holes in their dogs and how to minimize these problems with training. It's like having an owners manual for your first herding dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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