J. Williams Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 I had someone recently tell me that they never allow their dogs to watch them, or others, work dogs on stock because the sidelined dog can learn bad habits and/or get riled up making for a bad work when it is their turn. Someone else (who heard this bit of casual advice), later caught up with me and said they don't go out of their way to hide the action from their dogs; and, moreover, they insist that the sidelined dogs behave (no barking, biting at fence, etc.), even if in full sight of a work in progress. Just wondering what the general consensus here might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Julie, At trials,I don't let my dogs (ones I'm about to run) to spot sheep behind fences,etc. Got burned bad once by this,brought the dog just as they were exhausting sheep with the rest and when our turn came,he simply didn't get why he should go gather 3-4 for there were so many right over yonder behind those trees. I do,however,take youngsters and tie them to fence lines for correction purposes. When they think about getting a bit unruly or whiney,what could be a better than timing in corrections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I often keep the dogs "sidelined", as you say, and insist they behave. So far, none of the big hats I've worked with have told me it's bad. (And I think they'd tell me if they thought so - they've certainly harassed me about other stupid things I do.) On the other hand, I didn't manage to win the National Finals last year, so... Of course, Inci's comments about the dangers of doing this at a trial are undeniable. In fact, you can get your dog in similar trouble during a training session. But, for me anyway, that's ok since then I can work on getting the dog to find/work the sheep I choose. The only thing I watch for is to make sure that the sidelined dog is not responding to the corrections being dished out to the dog-in-training. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Well, call me lazy, but I often have dogs tied to the fence watching as I work others. This usually occurs in the bottom field which is about a 1/4 mile hike down a very steep hill (that means a VERY steep hill UP). There can be problems, especially if the sensitive dog is tied and the hard dog is having a 'rough' day, but it does give the young dogs a chance to watch and learn to be quiet watching while another dog works. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Working a tough stubborn dog in front of a very sensitive dog can turn the latter off? Don't know whether it's harmful or a way to teach them that it's not directed at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I have a verysensitive dog. If he is tied to the fence while another person is working a dog and that other person gives any sort of correction, you can see my dog visibly cringe and try to hide his head. He'll hunker down with his back to the action and try to pretend he's not there. I'm fairly certain that he knows the corrections aren't directed toward him, but it certainly hasn't taught him to ignore those corrections either. He just gets scared and would like to leave.... That said, he is often tied out with my other dogs waiting for his turn (because I usually don't need to give loud/harsh corrections to my dogs). I do allow him to go back in a crate when I'm done working him. All my other dogs are expected to stay tied on the fence quietly while I work the others. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I've had some "sensitive but keen" dogs I've worked - and they will cringe when I get on the steamroller dogs, but it hasn't turned them off... But I've worked some "barely keen" dogs brought for lessons that a hard look would send scampering back to mom... John, I assume you are asking a question about whether it will desensitize them - or have you seen it? I haven't noticed it, really, but it would be nice if that worked on some dogs... Leading, once again, to "it depends". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_Davis Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I would think "it depends" is the answer, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Other than breaches of local/event ettiquette, wouldn't everything else depend on the dog(s) involved, the situation, etc. etc.? Isn't it also possible (depending...) to see positive results from spectating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 I have a soft dog. He gets nervous if someone else is working near and disiplining their dog. I've been working on getting him used to it and for the most part he's getting much better except for when this certain person is working her dogs. For some reason he just goes nuts. A couple days ago I had him tied to the fence while I was using my young dog to set out sheep. When the certain person was correcting her dog he tried to go over the fence and she retied him after which he tried to go through the fence and almost succeeded. Yesterday I parked my truck right by the gate and just put him up when I was done working him. On the other hand when she was setting sheep for me my dog got nuts and wouldn't take my downs and decided to do a 350 yrd outrun when the sheep were only set out 100 yrds away.He just lost his head and ignored my downs and recalls..something he has not had a problem with for over a year. But when I was setting sheep for her he would go and gather them when she needed them reset and fetch them right through her bringing them back. I don't get it at all. This all started with this person over a year ago when she was using a whip not even in the same area we were working in. My dog heard it and stopped working his sheep even tho he couldn't see her and she wasn't near, just the sound of the whip. I have since gotten him used to the whip sound, but he still gets weird if she is around. He can take a heavy correction from me with no problem, but can't even be near this person. Out of working atmosphere he is all kisses and tail wags to her..no problem..just when she is working her dogs. Any suggestions? Or is it always going to be this way? I was going to enter pro-novice next week (my first trial) but after working him the other day I am thinking I'll just enter the novice class with no pressure as I have no idea how he's going to be now. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 JES - these dogs are funny sometimes (alright, most times...)... How they behave "at a trial" is very different, sometimes, from how they behave at home... It took until my own trial last year for me to realize that one of my dogs would get very gee'd up hearing and watching - he never showed it, until he got sent, and made contact with the sheep - he wouldn't act nervous, he wouldn't act any more "excited" than normal...the atmosphere just didn't seem to affect him - until I, finally, put two and two together...and realized, I think, what is going on. I guess my point is, you gotta run the dog where you think you should - and analyze what happens...after it happens. What, specifically, do you think he would do under "normal" trial conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 "What, specifically, do you think he would do under "normal" trial conditions?" As this will be our first real trial (I did enter one ASCA trial last July) I really have no idea how he will act. I know I am going to be nervous and he's going to pick up on that. Until the other day when everything went to hell I was confident about entering the pro-novice course. He can do the outrun with no problem. His driving is getting good enough that I thought we could get through the course, not pretty maybe but get through it. I see no problem with the pen. Now, I'm not sure what he will do. I think I might do better if the trial was not at our home field. He might now be associating bad things with this field. I will be taking him out there again before the trial and I'll just have to see how it goes, but I still think I will enter novice as it will be less pressure on both of us. I don't care how we finish, just as long as I have a good run and we don't have a strain between us. I may have to make sure we don't run near my friend that seems to intimidate him so much. I just hope he can get over this someday, its very frustrating to me. If this dog did not have issues like this he could really be a great dog. I have his full sister (different litter) who has none of these issues, loves to work with me, is very smart and learns so quickly. But just isn't as talented as her brother. Too bad I can't combine the two of them. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 JES, If it's just this one person who seems to give him the willies, then I really wouldn't worry about it at a trial. No one will be using whips at any rate, so he's not likely to hear the sound that triggers his concern. Just remember that you always lose something going from home to the trial field, so don' step out there expecting the same great performance you get every day. If he's a little afraid of the set out person then be prepared to shush/redirect him as he nears the balance point (you may get hit 2 points, but that's better than having your dog stop on you--I know from experience). The dog I described above is very timid (due to a poor start in life), and if the set out person is waving his stick trying to hold sheep, or heaven forbid, says something harshly to the set out dog as my dog is coming around or if the set out dog is shifted so that he is (in my dog's mind at least) running toward my dog, it can make my dog stop in his tracks (all three situations have happened to me). I am aware of this problem and so I just work around it as best I can. I spent a lot of time desensitizing him to a stick (it used to be that if I waved my stick at the pen, for example, he would turn tail; now he tolerates it, but I still have to be careful about what I'm doing). I think that most dogs have "holes" (some dogs have bigger holes than others) and your job as a handler is to minimize them. It will probably take you a few times out on the trial field to really see how your dog reacts in such a situation (and the first time out may not be the best indicator of how things will go generally) and then you'll be better prepared next time. In my dog's case, I recognize his limitations and act proactively to minimize them. Granted, he'll never take me to national finals, but I have learned a heck of a lot from him, and he has certainly taught me to think fast on my feet and to react quickly to changing situations--things that will certainly serve me well as I work my way up the ladder. Just the opinion of a novice handler (and all that implies).... P.S. Absolutely do not be afraid to leave the post and correct a problem right away. You can always ask in the handlers' meeting if the course director/judge will allow you to finish the course (with an RET as a score of course) even if you do leave the post so that your dog ends up having a positive experience. This is more commonly done at novice trials--those with no open class--but it's worth asking. I've seen way too many novice handlers stand there and watch their dogs crash and burn when they should have run out and stopped/fixed things. Even if you can't finish the course, you want your dog to learn the right thing.... Oh, and you were apparently posting while I was, so here's my answer to a comment you made there: I would not let your dog near the person he is afraid of before he runs. If she knows the situation, then she should be happy to help make sure that their paths don't cross prior to your run. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Julie, Its not just this one person that affects him, but she is by far the worse. She'd feel terrible if she saw me say that..LOL She loves my dog and feels terrible that she affects him in this way. He is affected by anybody working their dog near him and especially if they are yelling and pounding their wands on the ground. I have gotten him used to it for the most part and he actually stayed in place holding the sheep while two people were hitting their wands on the ground and yelling at the dog being worked who was about 4 feet from my dog. But this one person just scares the hell out of him. Is this a common thing? My dog is not affected by my waving or slapping my stick or yelling. I will leave the post if he gets into trouble, I have no problem retiring him if I need to. Winning is not important to me as much as gaining experience and working toward the goal of trialing in open. Hopefully we can overcome this hurdle and continue to progress. Thanks for your advice...wish me luck, I think I'll need it. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 JES, Luckily for you and your dog, there shouldn't be anyone working their dog or yelling or any of that stuff while you're running, so that shouldn't be an issue for you. You can't help what the set out person does, but generally they are very quiet so as not to affect the competitor's run. I don't necessarily think the fear thing is common. In my dog's case it comes from being left in a yard with a bunch of other dogs who beat the cr** out of him on a regular basis--hence his lack of confidence and fear of dogs (like the setout dog) running toward him. His mother also didn't like people yelling and such, and his personality is a lot like hers. Probably not the makings of a great trial dog, but since he was given to me and I was completely new to trialling I just sort of worked with what I had.... I think that if you persevere and try to remain calm even when he's stressing, you will eventually be able to overcome the worst of his reactions, but like I said, I've just learned to work around my dog's issues.... Good luck and have fun! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 I'm gonna agree with Julie - don't worry about it... If your dog is like everybody else's, he's bound to have some problem. You need to find out what they are and what you need to do to minimize it. Go out, have fun, learn somehing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 well, I have my first trial over now. I'm not very happy with how we did but now that the FIRST trial is over I feel I can relax and have fun now. We got a 69 the first day (novice class). We made it thru the course, not nice at all, but made it thru. It was an outrun, lift, fetch around the post, drive/wear thru 1 set of panels, set about 100 yards from the pen, and to the pen. The first day, I drove the sheep thru the panels. Sheep were excited, I was excited, dog was excited. He was very very tight, did an awful outrun, got the sheep on the fence and gripped pulling them off..the judge should have DQd me I thought. We didn't go all the way around the pen, but did go past me a couple times..finally got them penned. I got a 69. The 2nd day I got a score of 80, took 3rd place but I really feel better about the first day as I fetched thru the course the 2nd day and feel I cheated. Everyone said I looked really good, smooth and relaxed. But we can do better than this beginning stuff and I feel I took the easy way out. But, our first trial is over and I know what I need to work on. We are in the process of moving to our new property where I will have a big field to work in everyday so by my next trial I hope to enter pro-novice and do much better. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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