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THE ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE IS TO DO NOTHING ABOUT DUAL REGESTATION. THE FIGURES SHOW THAT OF THE 1300 BORDER COLLIES ?LOST? IN ABCA REGESTRATION, ONLY 1/3 OF THAT AMOUNT REGESTERED WITH THE AKC. WHERE DID THE REST GO? AND IF WE DID NOT HAVE DUAL REGESTATION, HOW MANY MORE WOULD WE HAVE LOST. AS IT IS THE AKC OFFERS FAR MORE TO DO WITH ONES BORDER COLLIE THAN THE ABC, SO IF ONE HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE, I BELIEVE WE ARE SETTING OURSELVES UP FOR DISAPOINTMENT.ALSO IT SEEMS WE SUPPORT,OBEDIENCE, AGILITY AND TRACKING(THE USBCC WAS FOUNDED BY AKC OBEDIENCE PEOPLE) BUT YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT IF YOUR DOG IS REG. BEING ACTIVE IN THE AKC HERDING PROGRAM, I CAN TELL YOU FAR MORE PEOPLE HERD AND DO AGILITY WITH BORDER COLLIES THAN SHOW CONFORMATION WITH THEM. AND OF ALL THE BORDER COLLIES REGESTERED WITH THE AKC, I BELIEVE A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM DO NOT DO ANYTHING AT ALL (SAME WITH THE ABCA,there certainly are not 2000 Border Collies doing stock dog trials ). AND WHO ARE WE TO TELL A BORDER COLLIE OWNER WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO WITH THEIR DOG? A LITTLE ARROGANT DON?T YA THINK?

AND WHAT WILL BANNING AKC DOGS FROM ABC REGESTRATION REALLY DO? THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN THINK OF IS TO ELIMINATE THEM FROM THE FINALS. AND HOW MANY DOGS MAKE IT THERE COMPARED TO THE AMOUNT REGESTERED? REMEMBER WE HAD A CHANCE TO BE THE PARENT CLUB(VBCA) FOR THE AKC BORDER COLLIE. THAT MENT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WRITE THE RULES.

AND AS FOR THE AKC RUINING THE BREED, TAKE A LOOK AT THE USBCHA TRIALS AS OF LATE. WEAKER AND WEAKER DOGS ARE SHOWING UP TO THE POINT THAT IF LIGHT SHEEP ARE NOT USED, MOST DOGS BOMB OUT.

AT THE BEGINNING I SAID WE SHOULD DO NOTHING, BUT I WILL TAKE THAT BACK. EVERYONE WHO TRIALS THEIR BORDER COLLIE SHOULD REGESTER WITH THE AKC, TRIAL THEIR DOGS AND SHOW EVERYONE IN THE AKC WHAT A REAL HERDING BORDER COLLIE IS.

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Sue or Mark,

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry over your post.

 

I realise you all have farm expenses,taxes to pay and must make a living but why don't you just stick to your "AKC-all breed herding" and stop making ridicilous statements such as:

>> TAKE A LOOK AT THE USBCHA TRIALS AS OF LATE. WEAKER AND WEAKER DOGS ARE SHOWING UP TO THE POINT THAT IF LIGHT SHEEP ARE NOT USED, MOST DOGS BOMB OUT. <<

This type of statements will only help making a believers out of those who's never witnessed any USBCHA trials across this nation but obviously that is your aim.

 

And,finally. The AKC ruining the breed. Anyone who deals with the AKC registry of any breeds DOES and WILL continue to destroy the canine species.

 

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ikw (edited 10-14-2002).]

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I am assuming this is posted here instead of the ABCA member section because you are not a current member, if that is true, you have already made your choice of registry obvious. However, the statement that USBCHA trials are favoring weaker dogs is...uninformed. Perhaps regionally, some trial sponsors are going to light sheep, but to suggest that MOST Open trial dogs are weak is laughable. I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a lot of weak dogs stepping onto the field in Tennessee in a few weeks. Add to the fact that dogs like Nuffer's Sue, Thompson's Karmie and Tee (now deceased) and others have all shown their innate power and skill on sheep AND cattle in USBCHA trials, indicates that your statement is not based in fact, but emotion. I personally do not see any problem, morally, ethically,or legally with asking people to make a choice of their preferred registry, based upon the stated goals of that registry. You will probably choose AKC. I will, most certainly, choose ABCA. I DO NOT support dual registration since the AKC is a detriment to the breed and am leaning toward Future Ban. As far as the statement about a parent club, why would the ABCA or the USBCC want to even acknowledge a registry that supports conformation standards, much less lower themselves to giving tacit approval by becoming a parent club?

 

Terry Toney

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I thought what was asked was honest opinions of dual registration. If you only wanted ageements to your positions you should have said so. Remember that a registry is just that, a place to register ones dog. It is up to the individual to determine what ones dog should look or act like. If you are not willing to take your working Border Collie out so the uninformed can see the difference, then they will only see the "ruined" dogs you speak of. So how would they know the difference? Instead of trying to alienate people who may disagree with you, try informing them of your views with fact and not allowing ones emotions to take over. And as far as seeing the dogs at a USBCHA trial, I held one at my farm several years back and used heavy wool sheep. More than a few dogs had trouble moving them at all. Alot of excuses were made for the dogs that did not complete the course. Of course there were dogs that did complete the course. Those dogs proved that they could work any sheep at any time and were the envy of the day and their handlers were inquired frequently on their breeding.

All I am saying is that if the ABC wants to change peoples views, then the people have to see what it is the ABC is talking about.And if they can't come to you or don't even know about you,or you threaten them, then the ABC will fold in upon itself and become more of a cult than a registry. And we all know what most people feel about cults. Reach out with a helping,knowledgeable hand, not with snarling teeth.

Marc Mesa

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Marc: THE USBCC WAS FOUNDED BY AKC OBEDIENCE PEOPLE

 

Penny: As I understand it, Ethel Conrad had an obedience background and grew

away from it as many people have.

 

Marc: BUT YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT [participate in AKC performance events] IF

YOUR

DOG IS REG.

 

Penny: A border collie can be ILP'ed or registered AKC and spayed or

neutered and still participate in performance events.

 

But I agree that it is extremely controlling of the AKC to demand that all

intact dogs participating in performance events be AKC registered. In fact,

that requirement is really at the crux of the issue.

 

If you disapprove of being told what to do, why don't you show it by

dropping AKC participation?

 

Marc: WHAT WILL BANNING AKC DOGS FROM ABC REGESTRATION REALLY DO? THE ONLY

THING THAT I CAN THINK OF IS TO ELIMINATE THEM FROM THE FINALS.

 

Penny: What makes you think the above? Dogs do not at this time have to be

registered in ABCA or anywhere at all or even be border collies to participate

in the Finals. Finals participation is not affected by the proposals at all. Where did you get the idea it was?

 

The purpose of the proposals has been covered exhaustively in the members section.

 

Marc: REMEMBER WE HAD A CHANCE TO BE THE PARENT CLUB(VBCA) FOR THE AKC BORDER

COLLIE. THAT MENT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WRITE THE RULES.

 

Penny: The AKC does not permit a parent club to write the rules. I don't know why Marc thinks it does. Maybe he can tell us why he thinks so.

 

AKC would not allow the border collie parent club to disavow conformation showing

or allow the parent club to require that only great working dogs be

designated champions. BCSA

would have been turned down as parent club if it had stuck to its guns vis a

vis even its watered down version of the latter.

 

In fact, at the present time the AKC wants the BCSA to include in their appearance standard some language about how that conformation standard

is used to make breeding decisions for border collie breeders.

 

Marc: AND WHO ARE WE TO TELL A BORDER COLLIE OWNER WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO

WITH THEIR DOG? A LITTLE ARROGANT DON?T YA THINK?

 

Penny: People who participate in AKC have a blind eye about its nature.

 

Clubs that host AKC events are not allowed to hold non-AKC events. People

who participate in AKC are participating in the most elitist, exclusionary

doggy enterprise in this country. Every time they pay a fee to AKC, they

support an organization that will not allow intact dogs to participate in

any event if not registered AKC and which actually has competitions only

open to

intact dogs. Crossbreds theoretically are not even allowed ILP numbers

because the AKC exists for the sport of purebred dogs.

 

The AKC says on its website that the purpose of breed standards is to chose

dogs for breeding. Registering a dog AKC supports that point of view.

 

Working breed after working breed has gone down the tubes after AKC recognition because AKC provides a massive infrastructure rewarding breeders who breed dogs for characteristics unrelated to working skill.

 

Marc: AND AS FOR THE AKC RUINING THE BREED, TAKE A LOOK AT THE USBCHA TRIALS

AS OF LATE. WEAKER AND WEAKER DOGS ARE SHOWING UP TO THE POINT THAT IF LIGHT

SHEEP ARE NOT USED, MOST DOGS BOMB OUT.

 

Penny: Very funny. People have been arguing this point since trialing began.

 

Even if it were true (which I dispute), the only point I can take from

Marc's statement is that he thinks trialing should be eliminated or possibly

that AKC trials are a better test.

 

Marc: EVERYONE WHO TRIALS THEIR BORDER COLLIE SHOULD REGESTER WITH THE AKC,

TRIAL THEIR DOGS AND SHOW EVERYONE IN THE AKC WHAT A REAL HERDING BORDER

COLLIE IS.

 

Penny: Why bother?

 

AKC herding trials are a joke and designed to be so.

 

If Marc means showing conformation judges what working border collies look

like, I reiterate, why bother? The only way a conformation judge could put

up the best border collie would be by coincidence or by already having made

some

prejudgment about the individual dogs' working skills.

 

Moreover, I will not support an organization that advances conformation

showing for border collies.

 

Marc: If you are not willing to take your working Border Collie out so the

uninformed can see the difference, then they will only see the "ruined" dogs

you speak of. So how would they know the difference?

 

Penny: What uninformed people? Spectators? Or are you calling participants

in AKC herding trials uninformed?

 

Do you get that many spectators? I was just at a trial in Georgia that must

have upwards of 500 spectators.

 

If you mean AKC participants, then I would be very surprised if those with

the better border collies do not acknowledge the difference in skill levels

from venue to venue.

 

Marc keeps using the word "we" in reference to the ABCA discussion. Marc, why isn't your post over on the members discussion topic?

 

Penny

 

[This message has been edited by Penny (edited 10-14-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Penny (edited 10-14-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Penny (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Guest PrairieFire

Mark writes:

 

"And as far as seeing the dogs at a USBCHA trial, I held one at my farm several years back and used heavy wool sheep. More than a few dogs had trouble moving them at all."

 

And how, Mark, did the akc herding champions do at moving these sheep at the same trial?

 

I'm sure you have more than anecdotal evidence that the akc herding dogs definitely outperformed the actual working dogs at your trial or you wouldn't post such a thing on a public forum for all to read...and I'm certain you won't hesitate to post the scores, judge's name, and any "factoids" to back up this very public statement?

 

Mark also writes:

"It is up to the individual to determine what ones dog should look or act like."

 

Interesting, and I'm certain the conformance judges of the akc will support that statement as well - as will the bcsa committee that is working on the "new" Border Collie conformance standard.

 

You are, of course, right that the ABCA DOES have a standard of behaviour - I quote from the webpage - "to promote and foster in North America the breeding, training and distribution of reliable working Border Collies".

 

Are you saying you don't support that effort?

 

As far as:

"EVERYONE WHO TRIALS THEIR BORDER COLLIE SHOULD REGESTER WITH THE AKC, TRIAL THEIR DOGS AND SHOW EVERYONE IN THE AKC WHAT A REAL HERDING BORDER COLLIE IS."

 

The akc/bcsa people KNOW what a good Border Collie is - that is why they established their "Registration Increase" committee - to attempt to register enough REAL working Border Collies to have an actual studbook...

 

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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Mark,you wrote:

 

**And as far as seeing the dogs at a USBCHA trial, I held one at my farm several years back and used heavy wool sheep. More than a few dogs had trouble moving them at all. Alot of excuses were made for the dogs that did not complete the course.**

 

I'll reply:

 

This logic escapes me.

 

This is like me saying,I once enjoyed a meal in a countless starred French restaurant in the Left Bank,my 9 course meal was out of this world.

Based on that one experience,should I start critiquing all the other numerous French restaurants?

 

You continued with this phrase:

 

**Of course there were dogs that did complete the course. Those dogs proved that they could work any sheep at any time and were the envy of the day and their handlers were inquired frequently on their breeding.**

 

And of course, you've just replied to your own ridicilous statement.

 

Next paragraph from you:

 

**All I am saying is that if the ABC wants to change peoples views, then the people have to see what it is the ABC is talking about.And if they can't come to you or don't even know about you,or you threaten them, then the ABC will fold in upon itself and become more of a cult than a registry. And we all know what most people feel about cults. Reach out with a helping,knowledgeable hand, not with snarling teeth.**

 

The ABCA is a member supported registry and it seems the ABCA is giving her members to come up with the best possible solution for it's current troubles.

How else do you expect them to come to you? If you are a member with good standing (to me that means not playing both fields),all you need is your vote.

 

That bit about "cult". I'm sure you could come up with a better explanation for people's efforts to keep the only known working breed alive,thriving and improved upon.

If in your book that means we belong or long to belong to some cult,at least our hearts are in the right place.

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ikw (edited 10-14-2002).]

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Guest PairDogx1.5

If it is true that you are seeing more & more weak dogs in the events you speak of, it is not because there are fewer good dogs & great dogs, it is simply because there are more dogs. Participation in trialing has increased dramatically within a relatively narrow time frame. I'm not a fan of sports analogies, but it's the best that comes to mind right now. Many years ago baseball expanded to almost double the number of teams, in a very narrow time frame. There just weren't enough major league caliber players to fill all those rosters. There were people holding down starting positions in the majors that couldn't have made my college freshman team. It's just numbers, and it disguises the fact that there are actually more good/great dogs.

 

As for the idea that the best way to accomplish one's goal is to convert the uninformed by taking your show to them -- I don't think so. As has been demonstrated many times, people have ideas that they don't want to see threatened, that's what put them where they are to begin with, and they turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to anything that exposes their shortcomings, or threatens their chosen path. You can't seriously believe that conformation people are going to convert in any significant numbers, all of a sudden say, "Yeah, that's what I want, a stunted lopsided half-curly split-eye cur with one ear up and one ear down and bizarre markings that can herd with the best". I don't think so. And besides, what could one prove in the types of venues you're talking about?

 

Possibly I misunderstand what you're saying. I'm definitely not very knowledgeable about the fine points. But conformation mindset is conformation mindset, and the results that come from this mindset are indisputable. It's simple logic, anyone can see where it would lead. The fact that folks continue on that road says that's where they want to go. It's asking alot of people who love and depend upon finely-tuned highly-skilled working dogs to expect them to give in even a little to something that completely counters everything they love and depend on.

 

I do agree that extending a hand is better than snarling, and I think the people here are very good at extending that hand, and sacrifice quite a bit to do it.

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>>AND AS FOR THE AKC RUINING THE BREED, TAKE A LOOK AT THE USBCHA TRIALS AS OF LATE. WEAKER AND WEAKER DOGS ARE SHOWING UP TO THE POINT THAT IF LIGHT SHEEP ARE NOT USED, MOST DOGS BOMB OUT<<

 

What about the AKC herding dog? Can any of them hold up to an ISDS Open course?

 

Each dog has their strengths and weakness. One of my bitches is awesome with light sheep but with her sticky eye has a hard time going straight into the sheeps head if they are really heavy. But does that make her a weak dog....you tell me...this same dog worked the cutblocks with 1200 ewes and drove then 6 miles by herself to market. I use her as my dog to train my students on...she is a reliable trusty bitch that gets the job done and with no flash.

 

I have a male dog that work heavy sheep just fine but has problems with rank cattle. Does that make him a weak dog? He also works ewes with lambs with no problem. Rams are his specialty. Is he weak because he can't work a mother/calf pair? He is very pushy with light sheep so I have to hold him WAY BACk.

 

Border collies work all sorts of livestock. You have to find the one that suits you. some are great on heavy sheep, light sheep or cattle. I do beleive there are a few that can all but most of the dogs are good at one or the other.

 

>>And as far as seeing the dogs at a USBCHA trial, I held one at my farm several years back and used heavy wool sheep. More than a few dogs had trouble moving them at all. Alot of excuses were made for the dogs that did not complete the course.<<

 

Were these all ABCA dogs? Either they couldn't handle the sheep, or were not trained/used to heavy sheep, handler error or had a bad day wuld be my guess. Heck, I have had a run which I didn't complete the course. Doesn't make my dog bad, it was a bad day...handler error. Last trial I ran at, I think about 30% dog either RT or DQ in Open. These were some of the top dogs. Next day, these dog just ruled.

 

>> Of course there were dogs that did complete the course. Those dogs proved that they could work any sheep at any time and were the envy of the day and their handlers were inquired frequently on their breeding<<

 

and...your point would be.....AKC dogs? Dogs familiar with heavy sheep? Are we talking about an Open course?

 

You know, I don't have a problem if someone has a AKC Border Collie and wants to come out to my farm for a lesson. I have extended this offer to a AKC friend who has show dogs. Heck, I never planned on giving lessons but here I am, I have several students..one with a rescue, one with a retired AKC herding Border Collie (she is doing quite well, from working lines but not registered as AKC but trained for AKC courses), another one who is acquiring a started dog and a couple of more people with nice (AIBC reg) bitches who are doing very well. ......did i turn these people away when they wanted to learn or act snobby. No, why should I?

You see I was in the same boat once. I had an AKC trained herding dog.....and an USBCHA handler took the time to work with me so I return the favor.

 

Diane

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Marc writes:

 

"Remember that a registry is just that, a place to register ones dog. It is up to the individual to determine what ones dog should look or act like."

 

Both the AKC and ABCA have underlying philosophies, or breed standards, that are in utter opposition to one another, and are mutually exclusive. If you register with the AKC, you should be attempting to breed to the AKC standard, which by its very definition means that you are not breeding to the ABCA standard.

 

That, in my mind, is the main reason that dual registration is unworkable. You either breed to a working standard or you breed to a show standard. There are two breeds now, and you should choose one.

 

If you think that the AKC's hegemony over event licensing means that it gives people more to do with their dogs, then you should choose the AKC. I'd argue that you should simply set up things to do that are outside the AKC.

 

As has been related here before, the ABCA does offer money to clubs and individuals who are sponsoring clinics, trials, demonstrations and the like. What it doesn't do is then require that only ABCA registered dogs take part in those events.

 

What seems to be missing from this discussion is a clear understanding of the framework and tradition of the Open trial. This isn't surprising, especially for people who come from other dog sports where membership and registration are the keys to admission.

 

In simple fact, anybody who pays the entry fee and submits their entry before the trial's limit is reached is eligible to run any dog in an open trial. If the trial is USBCHA-sanctioned, and the dog places in the top 20 percent, it earns points toward qualifying for the national finals. At the end of the season, if the dog is eligible to run in the finals, it can run in the finals.

 

The only way the ABCA is involved in the finals is as a sponsor, and a provider of eye tests to Border collies that are running in the finals.

 

As I'm sure you know, Marc, having managed a USBCHA-sanctioned trial, there is no requirement that any dog be registered with any registry to compete. In fact, the sanctioning rules are very clear that open trials are to be just that: open.

 

I think it's interesting that you think it's somehow incumbent on the people who have developed this breed of dogs to now go to those who have hijacked it for their own purposes and are in the process of watering it down and ruining it and show them what it's supposed to be. If they want to know what it's supposed to be, they can come to us. It's up to people like you, the crossovers, to let them know that there's a real breed of working dogs out there if they want to get serious about herding.

 

And, if by some chance, their AKC-registered dog is a real corker, we have set no bar to them competing in open trials. I don't know how this is all going to shake out, but I would hope that AKC dogs would be eligible for the ROM process so that any really good ones would not necessarily be lost to the working gene pool.

 

In the meantime, you have to choose the master you will serve. Trying to have it both ways means that you are not being loyal to either organization's purpose.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Bill you said:

 

"That, in my mind, is the main reason that dual registration is unworkable. You either breed to a working standard or you breed to a show standard. There are two breeds now, and you should choose one."

 

Do you believe that people who register AKC do not breed working dogs but only breed show dogs? Do you believe the AKC only registers dogs being bred for conformation and that AKC registration and working ability are mutually exclusive? If so, you should talk with the hunting-retriever people who register AKC and HAVE working dogs.

 

http://www.nahra.org/index.shtml

 

Sorry wrong link, try:

http://www.theapla.com/about.cfm

 

Just trying to point out that in your anti-AKC zeal you also are presenting misinformation.

------------------

Mark Billadeau

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-15-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Guest PrairieFire

Nope, Mark B., I don't think Bill F. is presenting misinformation at all...although I'm sure he can answer for himself...

 

The point is easy AND simple.

 

The very first thing the akc did when it "recognized" that the Border Collie existed was to establish a "conformance standard" on a breed of dog that HAD NEVER HAD SUCH A STANDARD EVER IMPOSED ON IT.

 

The ONLY "standard" ever imposed on the Working Border Collie was that it should WORK - to whatever standard the folks decided that work should be.

 

Then folks who never had worked a dog came along and said, "Y'know, it doesn't matter a hill of beans HOW that dog works - it should LOOK a certain way IN ORDER TO DO THAT WORK."

 

Pretty silly.

 

Now certain factions within the bcsa are trying to get the akc to accept a "modified" conformance standard that would allow certain physical looks to be accepted in the conformance ring - so that thier dogs can recieve a title on both ends; this, to me, is simply more evidence that the current conformance standard of the akc is anathema to a real working dog, otherwise, why change it - especially at the risk of being removed as the "breed club" by the conformance oriented folks at the akc.

 

So, that's my take on "Do you believe the AKC only registers dogs being bred for conformation and that AKC registration and working ability are mutually exclusive?"

 

I also think that anyone that supports the akc IS supporting conformance standards - that, after all, is what "defines the breed" by the organization itself - their is NOTHING in the akc breed standard that recognizes herding ability - NOTHING that would allow a scruffy, half-kelpie, bearded collie who passes it's HIT or BS or SNAFU recognition as a Border Collie...according to the akc - it must LOOK like a Border Collie, not PERFORM like a Border Collie...

 

The ABCA would allow that dog to be registered on merit as a Border Collie and accepted into the "breeding ranks" BECAUSE it can work to an accepted standard.

 

And that is the difference.

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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I'm not is disagreement that working ability should be first and formost in breeding decisions. I'm just trying to point out the doctrine preached here, all those who register with the AKC are breeding for looks and not working ability, is incorrect (no I don't resgister AKC). Again, look at the working gun dogs. Are they not being bred for working ability, dispite being AKC registered?

 

I'm also tired of the hypcritical attitude of working border collies are never bred for looks. While this attitude is not necessarily stated openly, it sure is implied. It's also VERY incorrect. Since smooth-coated is dominate, how and why do we have so many rough-coated dogs if looks were not being bred for?

 

So state your case for or against dual registration, don't turn it into a religious crusade and in the process alienate people who agree with you on the most important issue (breed for working ability first). Because, there is NOTHING stopping good breeders with good working dogs from deciding that the ABCA has been taken over by zealots and therefore move their entire kennel over to the AKC. They'll still have good working dogs and will still be able to excel at herding, whether it be in the fields or at trials.

 

------------------

Mark Billadeau

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Guest PrairieFire

"Again, look at the working gun dogs. Are they not being bred for working ability, dispite being AKC registered?"

 

Actually, Mark, I think you'll find that there are several gun dog organizations that keep seperate stud books from the akc...and that the owners of some of the best gundogs could care less about akc registration.

 

Oh sure, there are some "affiliated" gun dog organizations that support the akc - that's what a "breed club" is - but there are several that DON'T...for precisely the same reasons many of us don't support "affiliation".

 

And many of those who belong to the "affiliated" gun dog groups DESPISE the akc, but play along because it helps them sell pups - and you'll also hear a lot about how many of the bcsa herding folks don't care for the akc - they simply see it as a "necessary evil".

 

You'll also hear from the TRUE gun dog breeders exactly how akc recognition has ruined "the breed" - but how they have kept a few "lines" true to the breed...a situation I would rather not see the Working Border Collie in.

 

I didn't notice a single link or reference to the akc on the website you posted as an example, by the way...just references to "working tests".

 

"I'm also tired of the hypcritical attitude of working border collies are never bred for looks. While this attitude is not necessarily stated openly, it sure is implied. It's also VERY incorrect."

 

Incorrect for whom?

 

I just got done breeding a rough-coated, prick eared, fairly "normal" dog to a slick coat, agouti, sausage bodied, prick ear kelpie kinda thing...and got a couple of fairly traditional lookers who I'm sure will have long coats, and am keeping one that is gonna look like her sausage mom - long-bodied, slick, houndish, and the kind of bitch people will ask - "What pound did you get that dog from?"

 

The fact that they are both Open level dogs must not have had much to do with it, hey?

 

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-15-2002).]

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LOL Ok, you got me.

 

 

Oh, while this probably does not apply to you and yours; being in OPEN does not necessarily equate to being a good dog. For two reasons, people move up too soon and success in trialing is a team effort (dog and handler)

------------------

Mark Billadeau

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Guest PrairieFire

"Oh, while this probably does not apply to you and yours; being in OPEN does not necessarily equate to being a good dog."

 

Is this spoken by someone who has run Open level courses across the country?

 

I do hear this a lot, and actually take exception to it, quite vehemently...at least an exception about dogs that FINISH Open level USBCHA courses in various venues throughout the US.

 

Note the "finish" part.

 

I don't even think the dog has to "be in the money" - at least on the "real" courses...exemplified by trials such as Gene Litton's, Jo Woodbury's, etc...

 

ANY dog that can do a 650-800 yard outrun on range ewes that have never seen a dog, then outdrive and crossdrive 400 yards, pen the little darlings and then, by god, shed 'em...

 

IS a DAMN good dog, in my opinion.

 

And only the folks who have never tried that type of course add the disclaimer you have...although I'm sure your expereince on Open level courses in the West provide you with the same information I have...

 

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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I agree with you that any dog that can finish (which is not what you said initially) an open course as you describe is a good dog; however, here where I trial (VA, MD, PA, and NY) I see dogs in open that cannot complete courses but the owners still say they are in open.

 

No, I have not moved up into open yet, because we (me and my dog) are not quite ready. I won't move up until I have fixed a few problems we have (some are my problems and some are my dog's, which still come back to my problems as a trainer). We will likely be ready in the spring, perhaps for Oatlands.

 

------------------

Mark Billadeau

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Guest PrairieFire

I think there are "false dogs" in many venues...and there are also "false venues"...

 

So leading us back into the discussion...eliminating dual registration is a small step toward eliminating "false venues", and "false representation".

 

As in any situation, folks still have to utilize thier own faculties in order to make appropriate decisions - such as where to register their dog, where to get their dog, etc...but at least "our" registry is starting to take steps to distinguish between "borders" and "Working Border Collies"....

 

Just as a handler must distinguish between a "false" Open dog and a "real" Open dog...

 

And, just as a comment, I don't know about most folks, but before I stepped into Open I thought that there was very little difference between PN and Open - thinking that, after all, I had gone from nothing to Novice to Nursery to PN...

 

But on courses in much of the country, the difference between PN (or OR) and Open is an order of magnitude larger than from Novice to PN...even if you beat the "big hats" in PN, you gotta remember they run thier GOOD dogs in Open...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-15-2002).]

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I think that it's important to keep the discussion focused on two central issues:

 

The genetic quality of the breed: what should we do to insure that any dog registered with the ABCA is the product of a breeding program that is entirely focused on useful herding animals? To me there is absolutely no question that conformance standards have a huge negative impact on this goal. Maybe hunting enthusiasts manage to breed good dogs in spite of conformation standards, but that's their choice and their problem.

 

Second, we need to be sure that the ABCA as a registry is able to do the job it is intended to do. The registry is first and foremost charged with preserving and protecting the border collie as a superb working dog.

 

As it stands now, I believe the registry can't do that job. If they must register dogs that are clearly marked as animals that are as a matter of course bred for purposes other than herding (conformation showing, agility, obedience)then they CANNOT do their job. Anyone who has seen working instinct disappear as a consequence of a poor breeding choice, knows that this is a very real possibility.

 

Mr. Mesa, it seems likely to me that the lessened working ability that you have noticed might very well come from the fact that, heretofore, dogs bred primarily for biddability, beauty, genetic health etc. have been given an ABCA stamp of approval.

 

I have argued at length against punitive policies being used as anything but a last resort. That does not mean that I think that Kennel Club registered stock should be permitted into the ABCA registry. What I am arguing for is a careful consideration of the manner in which AKC dogs are excluded. However, I am wholeheartedly in favor of excluding them.

 

To me, this issue always comes back around to the American Kennel Club as an organization. To me, it is by and large a useless dinosaur. As many folks have commented here, it is the individual breed clubs and individual obedience clubs, agility clubs and so on that give it a semblance of life. It has one thing and one thing only that is of any interest to me. It can identify dogs that are bred for reasons other than work. This is the magic key to it's power over our registry.

 

I ask again (with little hope of an answer): has any serious effort been made to "persuade" the kennel club to confirm the registration status of animals registered there? If the primary function of the Kennel Club organization is to register animals then it seems to me that they would have great difficulty justifying a refusal to inform individuals with a legitimate interest of the contents of the registry. If we had a consistent reliable source of information on this matter, the ABCA could refuse registration to Kennel Club dogs and their progeny in a organized, consistent and discreet manner that any reasonable person could accept.

 

------------------

Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

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Bill,

 

"the difference between PN (or OR) and Open is an order of magnitude larger than from Novice to PN"

 

that's why I'm taking my time in making the move from OR to Open. My decision isn't based upon placings in OR, but in how we did on course.

 

Now back to our difference in opinion on dual registration. You can thump your anti-akc bible as hard as you like; but I do not agree that banning dual registration is the best thing for the abca or the working border collies, and neither approach can be proven until it's been tested. Don't bother preaching to me the woes of the other herding breeds, their situtation was different since they did not have an extensive test of herding ability to prevent loss of instinct prior to akc abduction of those breeds.

------------------

Mark Billadeau

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 10-15-2002).]

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Guest PrairieFire

Good decision, I imagine.

 

The USBCHA used to have "recommended" accrued Handler points for moving up a class - based on a first being 4 points, second being 3, etc...and 16 points were suggested for "moving on up"...I guess now it's just kinda up to the "accruee".

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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I believe that all the arguments posted here on the boards surrounding the dual registration debate are good ones, however, I see it as a very insurmountable task for the ABCA as a registry to take on the role of ?policeman of the Border Collie.? It seems that this is the underlying goal in these arguments, but I could be wrong. I think the waters get pretty muddied when we start to take this kind of approach in these discussions and I wonder if it is all even worth it. Obviously if we knew when the AKC was closing its stud books we would all have a better idea of what to do. In my opinion, I think the discussions regarding dual registration tend to become discussions on changing the role of the ABCA into something other than (or more than) a registry. Granted, prohibiting dual registration may help in limiting the destruction of the breed by the AKC, but is not the be all end all. Some days I really don?t believe that the AKC is all that big of a threat to the Border Collie. You still are going to have people that are breeding ABCA registered dogs that IMO should not be bred. In some ways, I don?t think that?s much different than someone breeding AKC dogs if you consider that neither progeny ends up with any herding ability. In some ways, I think the demise of the Border Collie as related to the AKC has already happened years ago. There has been a distinction between the AKC Border Collie and the working Border Collie for several years now. They are already completely different breeds and have been for some time. And to get into discussions about stereotypes regarding looks, etc serves no purpose either. I think there are bigger threats to the Border Collie, one which involves making sure that we continue to have people out there that are herding with their dogs. I think there is an issue with getting new Novice handlers. What are the numbers of new and upcoming handlers? Who is going to carry on this ?tradition? when the Jack Knox and Alasdair McRae?s of the world are no longer here?

 

I guess I see the ABCA as just a registry. It is simply a place where records of breedings and pedigrees are kept. In no way does ABCA registration guarantee the herding ability of a dog. It is a good indicator of what one can expect from a breeding or see how past breedings have turned out. If the membership feels that the ABCA should be more than that, which it seems to be the case, then there should be discussions on that. I don?t think the responsibility of the ABCA should be anything more than recording pedigrees. Or a better way of putting it would be, the ABCA with its limited resources cannot handle anything more at this time other than to be a place of record.

 

To be honest I don?t know what the solution to any of this is. I do like the idea of a ROM type of program (was it option C that referred to that?), but think logistically there are some serious issues to making that a workable and feasible option to carry out. Of course just like others who are like me, I rely on other individuals or stewards of the breed within the herding world to provide me with the type of dog that is going to help me get the job done, whether that be moving livestock in a farm operation or eventually trialing in Open and at the Nationals. I rely on people who have way more knowledge than I could ever hope to gain to produce the working Border Collie. I guess I have a lot of faith in these people that they will always be there to provide me with a true Border Collie. Or perhaps it is simply what could be seen as an apathetic approach that I take at this time. My thoughts most of the time regarding this issue (probably in part because it seems so daunting to come up with a real solution to the whole dual registration/AKC problem) is that as long as I?m free to run my dogs at a trial, I don?t care what kind of paper they come with. I know what?s behind them and what made them what they are.

 

Anyhow...enough rambling and time to get some work done so I can support my addiction.

 

Later....

 

Donna May

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