raw diet question + amounts compared to kibble)

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

I currently feed my dogs a good kibble. They get 1 cup a day. They also get various other things during the day, training treats, biscuits, etc. My dogs are spoiled. But they are very well behaved because laying down and being quiet while I work is a heavily rewarded activity.

 

I was thinking of doing some kind of frozen raw thing (something I do not have to TOUCH--ewwww--I am a vegetarian) once or twice a week for a bit and see how they like it.

 

Looking at the amounts recommended by the places that make raw frozen stuff for dogs, I found recommendations for either 1 pound per 50 pounds of dog, or 3 to 4 cups per 50 pounds of dog. My dogs weight 45 pounds and 35 pounds and are in great shape with lots of energy, bright eyes, shiny coats, etc. I am thinking that 3 to 4 cups is a LOT compared to what they are getting now.

 

How do you determine a comparison of kibble amounts versus raw food amounts? I also wanted to see how this would turn out, price-wise, if I wanted to feed just raw and have kibble for backup.

 

Another thing I saw opposing views on was feeding raw mixed with kibble. Some of the makers of raw foods say this is a great idea, some say it is a terrible idea.

 

Also, Kipp loves raw bones to chew on, but Tess won't touch a raw bone. Ha. I can just imagine Tess's expression if I give her raw food instead of kibble. She will pad right after me on my way to put down Kipp's bowl--"Excuse me? That's not mine. There's been a terrible mistake!!"

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[Kitch]

I agree that 4 cups sounds like a lot (though those with BCs with fast metabolism, that would be nothing.).

 

Dublin is about average metabolism and weighs ~45 pounds. He gets about a pound a day (2-3% of his body weight.)

 

I'm sure that after a few days, Tess will be loving the raw diet.

 

I wouldn't mix raw with kibble. I would just do one or the other. In a pinch, I use kibble for a training treat and still use Mother Hubbard "milk bones" but not a lot and never within 5 hours or more of feeding raw.

 

There are a bunch of threads on raw that might help you feel a bit more comfortable with the idea. If you do a search, some are in the General section and some in the Health section.

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

Never within 5 hours? Raw won't work for us, then. Unless I feed them raw right before going to bed. They get stuff all day long.

 

I was primarily interested in the amounts comparison, and I know there have been lots of raw discussions in the past. I did a search and was overwhelmed! When I have time to just browse, I will read through them.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Allie+Tess&Kipp:

I know there have been lots of raw discussions in the past. I did a search and was overwhelmed!

I want to switch to raw and also find the subject overwhelming. Part of it is the lifestyle factor. Like you, I give my dogs tidbits throughout the day -- mostly their kibble. I often use their dinners as treats for a training session and kibble for impromptu quick sessions (working with Quinn on right and left) or for things like coming promptly when called. How would I do this with a raw diet???

 

Then there are the "yuck" factor and "how do I make sure I'm meeting all nutrional needs" factor and "where am I going to store all this meat" factor. There are some companies that have raw food that is supposed to be nutrionally complete but then there's the "Yikes!" factor over price.

 

If my dogs had any idea how much time I spend thinking about them and their well being, they'd either be touched or figure I was nuts

[Pat W.]

I've been feeding raw for 7 years now (yikes!) compete in agility and due to the traveling I do to shows simply use a good quality kibble at trials rather than trying to travel with frozen raw meat. I also intersperse kibble and raw if I am short on meat and I dont have a delivery for a day or two with no digestive problems. I my guys range in weight from 38 lbs to a 55lb aussie all compete in agility are physically fit and have no health problems. There are several good freeze dried and prepackage raw foods out there that I have heard of but have never used only because I do not have access to them. From what I understand they can be pricey. I feed about 1-1.5% of optimal body weight for my guys increasing or decreasing as nessicary over the year as we compete and then layoff for the season. I also do bi monthly weigh-ins just to see where everyones weight is and how we are doing. Raw doesnt have to be slimmy and nasty even for a vegan ). Im sure that somewhere out there there is another one that would be willing to talk to you about raw. I would definately suggest doing some reading before you start to switch over

[Kitch]

Sorry, I wrote that quickly. I use non-raw training treats and mother hubbard bones. I don't feed a kibble/non-raw meal within 5+ hours of raw. I don't often feed a non-raw meal, but there have been a few times when I had no choice.

 

I would never mix kibble into a raw meal (ie ground raw hamburger mixed with kibble).

 

 

Raw is pretty easy once you get into it for a few weeks. I feed my stuff mostly frozen as it is quicker and the boys certainly love it in the summer.

 

Only a few items gross me out (cow's tongue comes to mind ) and then I just grin and bear it.

[sandra s.]

I mix raw and other stuff all the time and there have never been any problems. Kessie doesn't get digestive problems easily, though. It may be different for dogs with sensitive tummies.

 

At the beginning I used to weigh her food, but now that she's used to it and doesn't stuff it down like it might be her last raw meal (anyone remember the "dogs in elk" article? ), I often let her decide how much she wants, and keep the rest for the next day.

 

I have to admit feeding raw was "nicer" during the winter than it is now in the summer heat , but when she gets the zoomies after eating it's worth it.

[MrSnappy]

I've been feeding raw for 6 years and I am pretty lazy about it. I make sure their diet is balanced, but they also eat all sorts of other things like pizza or dog cookies or goose poop or whatever they are offered or steal for themselves! On the odd occasion when I've been out of fod, I throw some kibble in a bowl for them. Piper has a tendancy to get fat on kibble, as proven by her month away at sheep camp. We left her and Jack with a bag of Innova Evo as we felt raw would be too much work for our trainer and Piper turned into a little sausage dog!

 

Nevertheless, I have found that as with kibble, raw feeding guidelines are just that - guidelines. RD is the least of active of my three dogs but requires the most food to stay in good shape. Piper and Tweed have a 15lb difference between them but eat the same amount. I have simply learned to judge the amounts by their body weight and appearance.

 

My BF is also a vegetarian but doesn't find handling the meat gross at all. He says he found Hayden's poor condition on kibble (think, rough coat, bad bottom frequently) much more disgusting than a dead chicken.

 

RDM

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

I've fed mostly raw, and my parent's feed a combination of raw/kibble, since 1998. Both "packs" do great! My dogs get kibble if I'm really strapped for time or nothing is thawed - no problems at all. My parent's dogs eat in a pattern meat/veggies/kibble one day and raw bones the next. Also, no problems.

 

I would rather not mix raw bones and kibble (seems to predispose them to mild diarrhea) and since I would not feed any spoiled or "off" meat I have not seen any problems with the kibble/meat mix.

 

There is a good, sensible book out there by Carina (?)McDonald on feeding raw. It would be a good reference for you.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Lenajo:

There is a good, sensible book out there by Carina (?)McDonald on feeding raw. It would be a good reference for you.

Thanks. I'll need to check into that. Is anyone familiar with Nature's Variety? They offer raw, freeze dried, kibble and even canned and say it's good to rotate the various diets. There's even a pet store by me that sells the stuff so I could at least skip shipping.

[Pipedream Farm]

I feed two of my dogs raw. I actually do mix kibble and raw when I'm stitching them back from either raw or kibble. The same as you would gradually switch over food when changing brands of kibble. I've had a whole lot less digestive upsets doing it this way. I would think that their systems could adapt to a variety of feeding schedules as long as it's consistant. Actually, Rae has just develeloped a bad habit of stealing another dog's kibble. It hasn't caused her any problems --just annoyed mom.

Renee

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

Well, we have 80 pounds of kibble to go through so I am in no rush. Thanks for the author of the book... I found so many, I was again overwhelmed...

 

Neither of my dogs has a problem with coat, digestive, etc. so it's not really an urgent thing. I was just looking around, as it were, to see what's out there. I don't really have plans to switch over. Just was hoping to mix things up a bit.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[Lenajo]

Once you have a healthy dog you probably won't have to worry about gradually doing any switching. My version of switching is "oh, look what we have today.."

 

This week the dogs have eaten whole fresh frozen sardines, chicken frames, duck frames, vegetables (mostly squash and leafy greens in season) kibble, leftovers from my plate, ice cream off a kid's face, and enough treats, both good, bad and ugly cheap ingredients, to sink a ship.

 

Everybody's fine

[Lenajo]

You *always* pay shipping...one way or the other.

 

The NV diet is nice, but really pricey for large dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I feed a combination of raw, home prepared food, and kibble. They get about 25% kibble, which I do feed seperately, but mostly because I've noticed the working dogs do't seem to "burn off" the kibble as fast through the day. If I fed only raw, as I did with Ben for a while, I'd feed three meals a day. But they have been doing a LOT of work and training lately.

 

I know plenty of people who combine the two with no problem. I feel kind of skeptical about the idea that something dire might happen from combining processed with raw. These are dogs, after all - my Maggie once ate a lightbulb without harm (I would not recommend that under ordinary circumstances, however - she was the one who decided the lightbulb was on the menu, not us!).

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

A lightbulb! Eek.

 

Well, then I think I will start with feeding my two some kind of frozen raw thing I get at the local place once or twice a week and see what they think. And I won't worry about giving them goodies all day long. My dogs are very mellow in the house. I directly attribute this to the freely-flowing treats!!

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[pony500]

I've only been raw feeding since March, but there are some other things that you can feed that go with the raw diet, such as green tripe (which is very good for dogs) or canned fish, which they can have a couple times per week.

 

I know that raw feeding is a debatable subject with some people, but anyone who is thinking about it, there are some good books for beginners out there that make it a little easier. It also gets easier the more you feed that way. I kept my container of kibble on hand for a few months thinking that I would need it as a back up and I never gave it to him after starting raw. It can be more of a pain, but after you do it for a while it's actually quite fun and I enjoy making up Riley's meals. I have more fun making up his supper than ours!

 

Honestly, anyone who feeds raw has probably noticed the awesome coat their dog has. I know Riley has a beautiful shiney coat, clean ears, bright eyes and good breath.

 

You also learn that you can feed several items frozen, such as turkey necks or pork necks and it takes them longer to gnaw on them that way, so it's like a treat.

 

There are some forums and groups out there where you can get info, but some groups are very militant in their thinking and may turn off a beginner--that's what happened to me actually, but luckily I found another group of people that were a little more liberal in their thinking and were extremely helpful.

 

There are many people who mix kibble and raw as well with no problems. You have to learn your dog and how they eat and what is best for them.

[pony500]

Originally posted by Lenajo:

There is a good, sensible book out there by Carina (?)McDonald on feeding raw. It would be a good reference for you.

Carina McDonald's book is an awesome good beginner book. She also runs a Yahoo group called "Barf Lite" and the people on that group are very liberal in their thinking and very helpful as well. I would recommend that group for anyone new at raw feeding because they won't scare you to death or yell at you for feeding ground raw food.

 

Hope I was allowed to say that!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I loved Barf Lite - it was a great community! Also look up the local raw feeding community on yahoo, which will offer tips on deals on raw meaty bone, or may even offer a co-op (the greatest!).

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by pony500:

Honestly, anyone who feeds raw has probably noticed the awesome coat their dog has. I know Riley has a beautiful shiney coat, clean ears, bright eyes and good breath.

My kibble fed dogs already have beautiful coats and all those other good things My concern is regarding some GI issues that I'd like to address.

 

There are some forums and groups out there where you can get info, but some groups are very militant in their thinking and may turn off a beginner--that's what happened to me actually, but luckily I found another group of people that were a little more liberal in their thinking and were extremely helpful.

 

In addition to not being thrilled with the whole raw aspect, those hard liners really did turn me off a couple years back. I just found Barf-lite the other week and like the attitude in that group. It's just a matter of wading through all those thousands of messages.

 

Where do your dogs eat all those gross, um I mean, raw things? Like the bones. I imagine it takes some gnawing. Do they go outside? In a crate? I won't even contemplate the tripe. I won't say I'll never feed tripe -- Quinn has taught me never to say never (among other things, I always said I'd never want a Border Collie and I'd never feed raw) but I certainly have no intention of doing so at this time. Thanks!

[pony500]

Where do your dogs eat all those gross, um I mean, raw things? Like the bones. I imagine it takes some gnawing. Do they go outside? In a crate? I won't even contemplate the tripe. I won't say I'll never feed tripe -- Quinn has taught me never to say never (among other things, I always said I'd never want a Border Collie and I'd never feed raw) but I certainly have no intention of doing so at this time. Thanks! [/QB]

Riley eats his RMB's on a towel right in the house. Some people put the dog and RMB right in their crate. It's up to you. I never knew that vegetarians were that opposed to "touching" meat!! It's really not that bad, especially if the meat is frozen. I feed a mixture of ground and also RMB's. I also hold some of his RMB's, like chicken thighs. I know that many people pooh pooh the idea of holding an RMB for their dog, but I just want to know that he is absolutely crunching up those long bones. Turkey necks, lamb necks, pork necks and beef ribs I feel comfortable enough to just let him gnaw on them on the towel. But I have heard too many things about problems with "long bones" and I just feel better that way. There's another forum that I'm on, and thankfully there are a few others who agree and hand feed RMB's too, so I don't feel so bad. I would much rather be safe than sorry. I'm not sure how a vegetarian would feel about handfeeding pieces, but that would be totally up to the person and how well they know their dog and how they eat.

 

I think that many people start out with chicken wings, just to see how the dog eats them, but honestly, I think you do have to hold them in the beginning so that they don't just swallow the whole thing without chewing it. That's just a suggestion--that's how I started with Riley when he was just about 12 weeks old and it was a great way to learn how he approached the food and chewed it. He actually is a very good chewer and chews everything up into little bits, so I'm fairly comfortable with the way he eats.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by pony500:

I'm not sure how a vegetarian would feel about handfeeding pieces, but that would be totally up to the person and how well they know their dog and how they eat.

The OP is a vegetarian. I'm not (though I was for 5 years when I was a teen). I don't mind hand feeding or handling "regular" meat or even RMB's I suppose. I was thinking more along the line of tripe. I'd also just as soon not feed easily identifiable organs or parts (though poultry doesn't phase me) or anything with fur or feathers still on. Nothing whole and no bunny ears

 

I'm probably not the least likely person to raw feed but I'm obviously not the best candidate either. The other issue I have is I use food on and off all day for training purposes. Then figuring out where they would eat the raw food, and needing to clean up afterwards. And then there's what to do when traveling. I'm sure these are all easy enough to do once you figure out what works for you and you get used to it.

 

Thanks for the tips. I'm not sure how all out I'm going to go. I just know I need to do something different with my dogs. Right now I'm in the process of switching over to Sojo's pre-mix where you add water and meat to a blend of grains. It's all served raw. The two dogs I'm trying it with are slurping it down with enthusiasm. I'm not sure how I feel about this method but while I brood about going really raw, it seems like a decent compromise.

 

I found out yesterday that my sheltie has numerous ulcerations in her stomach and also pathology in her duodedum and upper intenstine. She's had several episodes of GI upset since March. We're waiting for results on the samples taken to see what is causing the problem. I'd like to switch her but am being very cautious and holding off for now. Not sure how the vet will respond to a raw approach. I know many aren't crazy about the idea.