Pup's "digestive" problems - diarrhea

[Sue R]

I have put off posting on this problem I've been experiencing but perhaps someone can give me some advice.

 

I got my pup at 11 weeks of age and the breeder had not experienced any problems with his fecal output. The day after I got him, he had diarrhea (not surprising between overeating, getting into cow poop, vaccinations, worming, change of environment, etc.). I fasted him for 24 hours and then began feeding what I thought he'd been eating (a sample came with him but it turned out to not be what he'd been on at the breeder's) combined with Innova Puppy (I feed my dogs Innova).

 

In less than a week from when I got him, I took in a sample as he was still "loose" and he had giardia, which was treated. No change in fecal looseness after treatment, and overall he appeared very healthy and energetic.

 

Two weeks later, a sample was positive for hookworm, which we treated and we also gave him a med from the vet for three days that was supposed to "firm him up" a bit. No change again.

 

After having him two weeks, I switched to feeding him boiled chicken/white rice/pumpkin and that firmed him up right away. I had him on that for about two weeks with six small meals a day to cause less stress on his insides.

 

After a couple of weeks of generally nicely formed poops, I tried reintroducing kibble again, adding a probiotic powder that is supposed to help with diet changes. Since Innova contains turkey as the primary ingredient and, since we had a dog once that could not eat turkey without debilitating diarrhea, I switched to California Natural Chicken Meal and Rice (the closest thing I could find in composition to the chicken/rice/pumpkin that I was feeding him). I gradually reduced his feedings from six to five to four times a day.

 

I introduced the kibble very carefully and his poops were pretty good until I went to total kibble a couple of days back, and they've been generally loose again. At best, they are "toothpasty" or poorly formed. I've given him a couple of days without changing his diet as he had vaccinations on Thursday and I wasn't sure if they could result in a little looseness for a day or two, but it's not getting better but rather worse again. I am going to begin feeding the CRP (chicken/rice/pumpkin) again as of tomorrow morning since he's shown no improvement today.

 

Another interesting thing I notice with him, no matter what he's been eating, is that his stool is always firmer in the morning and looser as the afternoon goes by. With the CRP, it's decent all day but still shows that progression from very firm to looser. With the kibble, it goes from poorly formed to soupy as the day goes along.

 

My vet feels the change throughout the day could be related to activity/excitement levels (and Celt can get loose when he's excited, anticipating some stockwork or just after working).

 

He is a veritable vacuum-cleaner when it comes to stuff - he chews and swallows bits of pine cones, wood, bark, and enjoys a cornucopia of poop (cow, horse, deer, wild canid, etc.). I don't think he feels that anything is too disgusting to eat if he can get it, chew it, and swallow it before I can get it out of his mouth. He is doing much better with "leave it" and his consumption is greatly reduced. He's also a great grass eater (as is my Celt). I do keep him on lead when we are in the pasture/barn and avoid him picking up as much as I can. I suppose I could put him on lead all the time but I'd rather not unless I have to.

 

He's been negative on his last two fecals. He seems healthy and active in all other ways. Anybody have any ideas or suggestions for kibble that is good for those with "sensitive" insides? Anybody have ideas on what his "sensitivity" could be? I don't think he's had intestinal damage or he wouldn't do so well on the CRP but I suppose it could be possible.

 

We've had a farm and a number of pups over the years and never experienced anything like this before. I'd sure like any input I can get...about my pup's output.

[TheStacks]

This may not be the case, but is the Innova grain free? Zoey never had solid poops and were much like you described until I switched her in the last few weeks to Solid Gold's new grain-free kibble, Barking at the Moon. May be worth looking into.

 

Lauren

[Sue R]

The Innova isn't grain free - it's got turkey, chicken, chicken meal, barley, brown rice, potatoes, rice, and an assortment of minor ingredients and vitamins, etc. The California Natural is chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, sunflower oil, and the vitamins and minerals.

 

I used these because they are really nice food and Celt (who is a little sensitive himself) does well with them. He tends to be a bit "soft" with the California Natural and I assume that's due to all the brown rice. He does very nicely on the Innova.

 

I can check out the Solid Gold, although I'm not sure it's available nearby.

[smileyzookie]

Im sorry I dont know anything at all that can help you. But I wanted to let you know I hope you can get this solved. It must be a great worry. Thank God this puppy is with someone who cares enough to try to fix it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It sounds like he may have what I call "garbage gut". Border collies were essentially developed, as a breed, to thrive on whatever cheap junk the farmer/shepherd could spare. Premium concentrated feeds are sometimes just not "junky" enough.

 

Don't fear, however! You don't have to feed Ol' Roy. Check out Solid Gold Holistique, Mmillenia, Canidae Platinum, Cal Natural Reduced Calorie, or any of the Eagle Pack Holistic that contain barley. The idea is to get more fiber in his diet, and in particular barley or oatmeal based feeds. You can supplement with up to 25% raw or browned grilled meat - doesn't matter what kind - to up the calories, but ease off if you get soft stools or irritable bowel symptoms again.

 

I don't know whether you are interested in raw feeding, but in my experience that is the ultimate cure for garbage gut. I haven't had a problem with any of mine since I made the switch four years ago.

[2 Devils]

Innova Evo is grain-free. They have a white meat based formula and a new red meat based formula.

 

Maybe try the Evo and see what happens.

 

Susan and Laurie sell EVO if you ever see them if there is nothing close by...

[Sue R]

SmileyZookie - Thanks for the vote of confidence. Some folks think I'm "poop possessed" and maybe they are right, but this looseness just isn't good for the pup. He can't be digesting well if it's running through him. Plus, it makes me anxious and that's not good!

 

Rebecca - Thank you for those suggestions. I almost tried the Nutro Natural Choice Chicken and Oatmeal (for sensitive tummies, and also no corn or wheat, which I do try to avoid) but I went with the California Natural because it had the ingredients that were most similar to what he was doing well on with "home-made". I can check on these other feeds. My local shop does have Canidae (I'm pretty sure) and I know they carry and recommend Eagle Pack, and also have the CN Reduced Calorie.

 

I have a mental block against "more fiber" that I have to overcome as I also have some digestive issues myself. More of certain fiber just speeds up the process for me...

 

As for raw, etc., we will be butchering an old cow this week and most of her will be ground beef. Ed himself suggested giving that a try (or at least to replace the chicken breast from the store if we have to continue feeding the home-made). I wondered about feeding it raw.

 

Can you feed both raw and kibble, or does their different rate of digestion cause problems? I'd be interested in raw but the price concerns me. I love what the Innova and California Natural do for my dogs, and it's quick and easy, no hassle.

 

Kim - Thank you, also, for your suggestion. I didn't know EVO had a red-meat-based formula. Our local store also sells EVO but only the turkey-based at this point. I'll check it our. We do go to Susan's about once a month and that's a possibility as well. I've just been dealing with this store for a long time now, get great service, and tend to not want to switch away from them, as much as I'd like to give Susan and Laurie some business.

 

So, anyone got any ideas on why his poop changes from firmer to softer as the day progresses? Doesn't matter what consistency we start out at, it still becomes softer/looser as the day goes on.

[Journey]

So, anyone got any ideas on why his poop changes from firmer to softer as the day progresses? Doesn't matter what consistency we start out at, it still becomes softer/looser as the day goes on.

Could it be that as the day goes on he eats more unsavory items? Whereas at night, I assume, you have him crated. Maybe his garbage collecting is catching up to him during the day and he's given his system a break during the night.

 

Karen

[TheStacks]

I forgot to mention that the grain-free kibbles can be high in protein, which in my understanding is not good for a growing pup. That is also something to consider. Although, feeding raw would be high in protein as well. So I am not sure what the possible issue would be. Anyone?

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Sue R:

I have a mental block against "more fiber" that I have to overcome as I also have some digestive issues myself. More of certain fiber just speeds up the process for me...

Sue,

More fiber does seem counterintuitive, but having a "nervous stomach" myself, I can attest to the fact that fiber works. When I was younger, I had some bad problems, and the doctor put me on metamucil. I thought he must be crazy, given the problem I was having I didn't need a LAXATIVE!, but in truth the metamucil (like the pumpkin) actually adds bulk to loose stool, thereby firming it up. It's worth a try.

 

As for combining raw and kibble, I did it with Boy, just not in the same meal. In fact, Lark gets two kibble meals a day and one raw. Regina (my holistic vet) recently told me that she feeds raw and kibble TOGETHER--her words "It's like spaghetti and meatballs."

 

So if you could find a kibble that doesn't upset his tummy you could use that to make sure he's getting a balanced diet and then add raw as appropriate. Or, the other thing I did with Boy was feed mainly raw and give one meal of oatmeal (vitamin and mineral fortified) a day, in this case it was to try and add weight. I would also make sure Bute's not getting any dairy products as lactose intolerance could be a problem. [edited to add: I felt that the oatmeal, like the kibble, ensured that Boy was getting a more appropriate level of vitamins and minerals--since the oatmeal was vitamin fortified--which freed me from having to be real concerned about trying to balance the raw to make sure I was meeting his dietary needs, if that makes sense.]

 

My theory on it getting worse as the day goes one: consider that when he gets up in the morning he has fasted overnight--nothing going in to upset the balance. As the day goes on, his GI tract has more and more going in and gets more "inflamed" as the day progresses.

 

J.

[2 Devils]

Sue - The red-meat formula for Evo just came out in the last couple months. It is literally very new on the market. I get mine from Booth Feeds since they are just up the street. Maybe you can ask the store you use if they would order you a bag and see what happens.

 

The high protein does not seem to have had adverse reactions with Tempe. She did not grow any faster and does not seem to have any major issues. She is 8 months old and maybe 23 lbs and at most about 19" at the withers. She is a petite little thing. The urinary issues were solved with taking her off Wellness and adding Uro-Eez for a month or so...

 

The bc/mix we had use to be similar to your pup in that throughout the day her stools became more loose. We couldn't figure out why and in time it did get better. When she got really excited, like flyball weekends, the runny stools did return for a few months and then that also got better...

 

Good luck,

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

One of the symptoms of nervous stomach is that it does increase as the day goes on. Fiber helps this, and when I switched to raw meaty bones, I noticed a soothing effect too.

 

I've raised multiple pups on raw now and I haven't had any problems with fast or uneven growth, quite the opposite. All my pups seem to grow slower than their littermates, though, except for Jen, they end up catching up or even surpassing them.

 

EVO is not recommended for large breed puppies (adult weight greater than 50 pounds) because of the higher calcium. But if you combine it with raw meat at the rate recommended on the bag (I think it's up to 50%), you'll end up with a lower calcium percentage.

 

I've been combining kibble with raw for about a year now with no problems.

[Sue R]

This is GREAT, friends! Thank you all! Gotta go, I've got the grandkids until Wednesday night and dinner's cooking...

[Sue R]

I want to thank everyone for their public and private communications on this topic. I also wanted to bring you up-to-date on Bute's progress.

 

I tried California Naturals Chicken and Rice as it was similar to the chicken/rice/pumpkin I was giving him. He was still "loose as a goose". Maybe it was the brown rice or just the "richness" of the CN?

 

I got him stabilized and settle on the CRP for a week or more and then tried Nutro Chicken Meal/Rice/Oatmeal for Sensitive Stomachs, and he has done wonderfully on it. I was pretty slow and careful introducing any change of feed but he took to this with no issues at all.

 

He's got lots of output and it tends to be light in color, but it's generally well-formed and predictable. Exciting circumstances and an occasional foray into somebody else's dish tend to result in some very temporary looseness but sampling the "delights" of the barn and pasture don't seem to bother him at all at this time. And, we are not seeing such a change in texture from morning to evening - just a minor change throughout the day, which is also an improvement.

 

He had another diagnosis of hookworm and is under treatment for that. He's stayed so lean that I've upped his food because the Nutro isn't as "rich" as the Innova or California Natural, and he's now looking much better - he was looking pretty scrawny a couple of weeks ago and I expect I was underfeeding him. He only gained about two pounds in a month and that was too little for his age.

 

I have to give him four smaller meals - two each in the morning and evening, about 1 1/2 hours apart, or he gets loose again. Breaking his (now) three cups a day into these four meals does just fine (my work schedule prevents my feeding him the meals throughout the day).

 

I've never had such issues with a pup/dog before and I've appreciated everyone's concern and advice. I'm just very, very grateful and relieved to feel that I've got a handle on this. I'm hoping for a little compensatory growth for him as he was not progressing in putting on weight (and frame) like he should but, with the recent increased feeding, I think he's doing much better.

 

As for his future, he has been on sheep just a few times and the progress each time is amazing. He's gone from looking at them with interest, to moving with interest, to knowing he was supposed to be doing something about them but not knowing quite what, to moving out and around and trying to gather (just in four exposures over a couple of months).

 

At home, he is totally interested in the cattle (especially the calves, as they are more "his size" at 400# or so), and just dying to be able to work with "the big dogs". I have to be very careful that he doesn't get into a situation where he will be frightened or hurt by the cows.

 

I think he will be a wonderful help and complement to Celt - Celt is a great gathering dog but could use backup and power, mainly when the cattle are less cooperative, and that's what I'm hoping Bute will provide. If Bute is a good driving dog, that will also help as that is not Celt's strong point. Megan has no outrun but loves to drive and has little power. I'm real excited about bringing him along and hope I can do him justice.

 

Thanks again!