laurie etc Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 I picked up a young ABCA working bred dog this week - (I don't really need any more dogs, but she was "for sale cheap" and I thought I would go by and take a look since I was in the area.) When I found out the details about her life, I couldn't leave her there, because she would just go back to her life of frustration and confinement in a 4x4 foot kennel - looking at 200 sheep. She was sold as a pup to these people who have sheep, but were clueless as to how to even begin to train a dog to work, so there she sat for almost 3 years. She is a slightly built (maybe 25 lb) girl, leggy thin and un-muscled; but her feet are the strangest I've seen. She has very long toes (and toenails) but what worries me is that her pasterns are very sloping and her feet are fairly flat (not much arch to her toes at all). I even asked if she had been injured somehow- the toes almost look like they have been broken or dislocated at some point, but they said no. I'm wondering if fitness, muscling and toenail trimming will help this at all, or will splayed feet like this preclude her from a job working sheep. If so, she's a sweet natured dog, and would probably do fine in a pet home with less hard activity. Anyone have experience working a dog like this, or am I wasting my time even starting her out? Quote
Black Watch Debatable Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Laurie--- I can't vouch for the content of the site, but is this the condition you're describing? Perhaps a good diet and exercise can help your new girl. Good luck with her---I love the not-so-big ones! Quote
Sue R Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Laurie - When we got our Megan at 9 months, her legs looked like what you are describing. She spent her days in a crate, had no yard, and so had little exercise. She had no body contours, no hair on her tail, her toes pointed every which way, her pasterns sloped at less than a 45 degree angle from the ground, and even her legs sloped oddly, particularly the front ones. With time and exercise, she has reshaped (she was never overweight, just shapeless and unfit), and her legs and feet have improved. Her legs are fine, her pasterns are very nice, and her feet are much better. She's not built well (she toes out a bit) but that's breeding I think (she was poorly bred - has some Swa**ord in her lines). Her legs and feet will never be as nicely angled and tight as Celt's, but she seems to have no soundness problems and is very fast and agile, and can work (or play) hard without any problems. If you like her, trim her nails and give her the exercise she needs, and see what happens. Our Megan has been a joy. Even though she doesn't have Celt's quality and abilities on stock, she's eager to work and has her own strong points for usefulness on the farm. Thank you for being so kind to this neglected dog! By the way, did you get her papers or know who her breeder was? PM me if you'd like. Quote
laurie etc Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:Laurie--- I can't vouch for the content of the site, but is this the condition you're describing? OUCH! no- they are not nearly that extreme - interesting site, though! Her feet/toes do look much like some GSD feet I've seen - Maybe I'm just not used to seeing them on Border Collies. She has been on Cr** generic kibble her whole life - free choice 24/7, yet is still thin and extremely under muscled. Her legs are like twigs, and there is no definition to her body muscling. Her coat is horrible, but the good news is she did have a yearly vet exam,(vaccines, teeth cleaning), and was kept on Interceptor. She is a very sweet and spunky little girl, she was not abused - just misunderstood and "put on a shelf" - I'd call it unintentionally neglected. Quote
laurie etc Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Sue R:Laurie - When we got our Megan at 9 months, her legs looked like what you are describing. She spent her days in a crate, had no yard, and so had little exercise. By the way, did you get her papers or know who her breeder was? PM me if you'd like. Thanks, Sue! I passed Bruceton Mills in my travels - if I hadn't been on the road so many hours, I'd have looked you up. Megan's former description sounds similar, so I'm hoping that she will muscle up into a sounder looking dog. Right now, she runs "peg-legged" - bouncing along with both front legs almost pinned together, almost like she doesn't have the strength to use them independently. Yes, she has ABCA papers. She comes from some decent working lines, mostly mid-West and Wyoming tough cattle/sheep dog breeding. Her parents are working farm dogs. She's not puppy mill stock. The people that owned her meant well - Someone told them they "needed" a Border Collie to help them on the farm and sold them a pup. They have never trained a dog - and didn't know that a Border Collie has to be trained to work sheep - they thought it would all "come naturally". But, you know how it is. When I saw her I thought "Oh, my...definitely not what I was hoping for." But then my second thought was "I should take her anyways, and at least offer her something better than the life she's been stuck with". All the way home I kept repeating "Oh well, it's only money, it's only money...". Quote
Belleview Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Years ago, I bought a 2+ yo female who had been confined in a kennel situation most of her life with limited real exercise. Her feet were,and still are, exactly as you decribe...very weird, flat feet, long toes. I always wondered if it would be a problem. Fortunately, after nearly 8 years, miles and miles of work & a successful trial career, I'm happy to say, it wasn't. Good luck with your girl. Quote
laurie etc Posted March 21, 2006 Author Report Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Belleview:Fortunately, after nearly 8 years, miles and miles of work & a successful trial career, I'm happy to say, it wasn't. Very cool! Thanks for the encouragement! If she were a heavy dog, I can see that it might be a problem - but as light as she is - maybe it won't. Quote
Sue R Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Laurie - Give me a warning so I can vacuum up the dog hair and straighten up the kitchen! I hope she does well. Hmmm, she's from cattle-working lines... You have a really good heart! Quote
Rhborder Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 I can't vouch for the content of the site, but is this the condition you're describing? I Have never seen anything like that before in my life it looks painful!!! Hi Sue, how is Celt and all the others doing? Quote
Jodi Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Laurie - I have seen one flat-footed, neglected dog finally get the work it needed and, while its feet never quite looked "right," he did look much better than when he was dropped off. Do you have a photo you can post? Jodi Quote
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 21, 2006 Report Posted March 21, 2006 Ugh, look at those poor GSD's! And all in the name of "perfect conformation." Make me sick! As for her feet, if you kennel your dogs outside, gravel will fix that. Not hard tough gravel but the smooth little pebble gravel. This is what our GSD breeder informed us anyway and our GSD never got splayed flat feet, neither did hers. Lots of swimming and up hill fetch will build her up nice and give her tone too. Good luck and congrats on getting her. She'll love you forever. Quote
laurie etc Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Posted March 22, 2006 I'll try to get some pictures of her today and post them - I don't have a digital camera, but maybe I can talk a friend into doing it. I think it would be good to have some before and after pictures of this girl, anyways. My dogs are kenneled indoors(rubber mats over concrete), and also outside in the yard in small groups for free exercise and leisure/potty time (They are probably outside an average of 4-6 hours a day, some days more if I'm home all day). They also each work/train at least a bit every day. They have about a flat acre or so of yard, and a deck they run up and over (steps on both ends) but no hills. They are all very muscled and fit - but I don't do any forced exercise with them other than training on sheep 2-3 times/week (and some of the dogs get some agility/obedience training). I'm hoping that just giving her free-run in a yard at her own speed instead of a kennel 24/7 will help, and her stamina and fitness will increase without "pushing it". She's also switched over to the raw diet my others are on, and really seems to like it. She'll probably get to see sheep in the round pen this weekend for a few minutes, but I don't want to stress her joints and soft tissue too much. Quote
Sue R Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 Ryan - I've been noticing your posts. How are things with you and your pack and family? We are fine here. Calving season is upon us! Quote
Rhborder Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 Hey Sue! Everyone is doing great, Still working on getting Noah better,Lol Quote
Jennifer Glen Posted March 22, 2006 Report Posted March 22, 2006 I used to show my GSD and I have seen the carpal conditon before. The dogs don't seem to be in any pain. They just use that part of their leg as a foot. I was horrified when I saw it but the dog didn't seem to even know there was a problem and was running around it's kennel like any other dog. Nobody breeds it intentionally but it's because they breed for sloping pasterns. Pasterns are the shock absorbers so to get that springy step they breed lower pasterns. (you don't want straight pasterns in our breed either but only a little slope) Of course the GSD breed is too extreme in every way but that is a topic for another board... It sure sounds like Laurie's new BC has the "kennel feet" that everyone is talking about and it seems to be fixable. That's great. I also have a dog that tore a ligament in her middle toe and it sticks out flat like you are describing. I guess that is real common in racing whippets. Jenny Quote
Miztiki Posted March 23, 2006 Report Posted March 23, 2006 I have no experience with splayed feet or the condition you described, but I would hesitate to let her run too soon. Her ankles must be weak and therefore she could easily sustain an injury. Perhaps others will chime in but I would suggest slowly increasing her activity level and build up her strength, similar to the way a therapist would help a person recover from, say, a broken ankle that's been immobilized in a cast for nearly 8 weeks. Please keep us updated on her, and thanks for having such a big heart. Quote
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