RAW

[Coloradogirl]

What is the best book to get to figure out how to feed raw? Do people kibble also? I have a really fat boy that needs help, nothing wrong physically and blood work came back fine. Vet suggested raw, or one of his perscribed feeds.

Thanks in advance

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I haven't read this book yet but I've been on Carina's yahoo group for years. Raw Dog Food - Making It Easy This will help you go totally raw if you'd like to go that route.

 

I've been doing a combination of raw meaty bones (just whatever is cheapest and appropriate) and Solid Gold's Holistique kibble, for the past three weeks since the holiday rush started. I have been so pleased!

 

Holistique is a very low protein/fat kibble that is really designed as either a serious weight reduction food or to combine with fresh meat. I "rediscovered" it after noticing that they had changed the formula since I last tried it about five years ago.

 

If you combine it with a lean meat like chicken, turkey, or pork, you should be able to take the pounds off your pupper pretty quick, get some of the results of raw, and break into the world of natural food fairly painlessly.

 

Don't forget to increase your dog's exercise, too!

[RaisingRiver]

I read on an agility site to feed veggies for overweight dogs. I fed my GSD/Chow the suggested Pumpkin (the kind you buy in a can to make pumpkin pie w/, but not the filling, actual pumpkin) and canned peas. She lost 15lbs in 4 months between that and once a week agility class and few runs at the dog park. And wow does she run more often. I did feed her her regular 'diet' dog food (Nutro) from time to time to make sure she got all the nutrients she needed.

[Claire Owen]

I've been wondering about a raw diet recently. Where do you all buy the meat as I figured it'd be really expensive to buy that amount of raw food?

[airbear]

Originally posted by Spottydog:

My 35lb dog eats about .5 lbs of meat a day. I buy different types of meat, so the price varies from about $1.50-$3 a pound. Obviously he gets more of the cheap stuff! But I'd say on average that works out to $1 a day. Really not much in the grand scheme of things.

I am SO JEALOUS! My 34lb dog eats 2 - 2.5 lbs of meat a day. Mostly we go to superstore-type places where we get enormous trays of hamburger, and then there are the markets in Chinatown which sell fairly cheap chicken quarters (0.89 lb) and interesting things like pork hocks. Oh, my 65lb aussie only eats about 1.5 lb a day because he gains weight easily.

 

We had a bit of a bonanza this fall when my friend culled some ewes and had it ground up for me, the meat, bones, and other bits. We also got the bones that didn't make it into the mix and the dogs have been happily munching away on those too. In fact, I find the bones lying around in interesting formations. I think Bear is trying to put the sheep back together so he can have his own sheep to play with.

[Claire Owen]

Chicken quarters??? I didnt think dogs should have poultry with bones in it or is that just cooked?

 

See I wouldnt even know what I could and couldnt feed Bailey plus he's really fussy I'm not sure how I'd even get him to eat it. Someone recently tried him with liver as a treat and he just turned his nose up at it!

I'm pretty sure our butchers are no longer allowed to give/sell the bones - I know some where banned with the outbreak of CJD ... not sure if it still applies or not, will have to find out though.

 

Does anyone know any good books or websites detailing what a raw diet can consist of?

Thank you

 

Claire and Bailey

[donna frankland (uk)]

fear not claire! you can get as many scrumptious meaty bones as you are willing to pay/scrounge for!

i just got a big bag of pigs feet and random piggie parts for ?1!

as for liver, my dogs hate it unless its frozen or dried, THEN it is worth stealing!

if you want to, feel free to pm me and i can hold your hand for you!

tom lonsdale's books 'raw meaty bone' and 'works wonders' are supposed to be very good. i agree with the first, but will have to give my verdict on works wonders in the new year, as i'm hoping that father christmas is going to bring me a copy!

love

donna

[Coloradogirl]

Thank you all so very much, I have looked at some of the kibble that has 0 carbs, and it is $50.00 for a 33 lb bag..... That is to expensive, but I do live near a processing plant that butchers everything, plus when we have a steer done I always get the boiling beef, heart and soup bones for the dogs. How many of you feed necks from chickens and turkeys? Spot used to be really lean, and used to be able to catch(and eat) rabbits, it was sad watching him today, because his fat body just can not keep up with the rabbits anymore and I know how bad he wanted a little fresh bunny.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Necks are good but very lean and boney - you want to supplement with some extra meat (ground beef should be pretty cheap for you).

 

It's unfortunate that there's not many bones from a beef that are dog-edible - they can gnaw on them but most are kind of scary for teeth. But there's plenty of good meat on a steer! You should be able to get sheep in Colorado, too.

 

There's a Yahoo list called Carnivore-suppliers. You can post your own products for sale or find something to add variety to your dog's diet. It's national - a good place to sell cull ewes (I've sold two already at much better than market prices).

 

The high-protein kibbles are actually not too expensive when you realize that you'll feed as little as half what you feed with the carb-based foods. So that's actually the equivalent of around a dollar a pound. Then you can also supplement them with fresh meats - most of them are formulated to work well with supplemented raw or fresh foods.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I forgot to mention - I'm glad to see someone else has dog with high metabolisms. Jen eats almost three pounds of meaty bones every day, plus a little kibble, and sometimes I know people wonder whether I feed her! The others maintain good weights on around two and a half pounds plus kibble. Ben eats between three and four pounds a day, including green tripe and organ meats - or a piece of sheep or whole duck. I've started offering Ann a duck once a week also. I'd like to source rabbit to feed everyone eventually but right now I can only afford an occaisional one to feed Ben.

 

The ducks can weigh up to ten pounds each. The dogs eat very lightly on a "post-duck" day but they DO eat. I'm just amazed and envious as all get out. I would hate to see myself if I ate a ten pound duck or a four pound rabbit all by myself every week!

[Pat W.]

Colorado Girl,

 

In reference to shopping for the meat. Go to you wholesalers under meat and start dialing, thats what I did. I explained that I was looking to purchase chicken/turkey necks & backs, beef liver and other such things in bulk ie 40+lbs and what would their price be? I have found prices here in Se Pa from 18cts to 48 cts for chix and such but have recently joined a co op that buys in much larger bulk therefore allowing for a much larger variety at a lower price. Also check any place that processes game meat, being in Co. that would be elk, deer ect and see if you can buy scrap meats from them. ANY meat you buy should be human quality. You can also feed whole fish to boot. There are two schools of thought out there as to feeding veggies or not. A dogs digestive system cannot break down the veggies properly so they must be pureed for them. I find that my pack does better when I suppy them with fresh veggie mush from time to time. One thing you might want to consider investing in if you have the room is a chest freezer.

[Wendy V]

How does one join a bulk buying co-op? Where would Ifind one in Michigan?

 

Wendy V

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There are many regionally-based raw feeding yahoo groups. For instance, last I checked there was a group here (North Carolina) for Charlotte (queencityBARF) and Raleigh (can't remember what the name of that group is - probably Triangleraw or something).

 

I'm hoping someone here will know what the Mighigan groups would be. Yahoo makes it stupid hard to search group names, if you don't happen to know the group name.

 

Anyway, once you've found and joined the appropriate groups, do a search in the archives for "co-op". Almost everyone who joins the local groups starts off with the co-op question!

 

If there's nothing there, then you can ask - and also consider organizing one yourself. sometimes people are just sitting around waiting for a leader!

 

Good luck!

[Root Beer]

I feed them the volume that keeps them at the fitness level I think is best (i.e. thin but muscular: the last 2 ribs *just* about to show, lots of muscle mass). They have great coats, tons of energy and poop once a day.

I wouldn't worry in that case. It sounds like you've found the right amount for your dog.

[airbear]

Originally posted by Spottydog:

OK, now I'm worried that I'm starving my dogs!

So long as the dog looks/feels good, then I'd say you're doing just fine! Wick is like me - we don't gain weight despite enormous quantities of food (and neither of us has worms ) She's about 19.5" tall and has an enormous amount of muscle in her rear. If she had a tail, she'd probably weigh closer to 36 lbs (how much do tails weigh, anyways?).

 

In terms of quantities, we're pretty casual. Today, for example, she had about a pound of regular hamburger for dinner, with a nice fresh egg thrown in like steak tartare. For breakfast, she had a chicken quarter, which weighs something like a pound, I guess, bone and all. For pork hocks, I'd say they're about 2 lbs including bone (which is eaten). I don't do bony things like backs/necks because they're almost as expensive here as getting a meaty cut.

 

She tends to lose a bit of weight after a weekend of trialing (interferes with her 18 hours of sleep) so I might give her an extra bit for the few days following.

 

Poor Bear got 1/2 pund of hamburger, no egg, and a smaller chicken quarter. He is prone to weight gain and it's a struggle to keep him under 62 lbs (he claims it's all fur).

 

So to summarize - I wouldn't worry about the 'right' amount as there are too many variables. Heck, my dogs get waffles on non-trialing Sunday mornings, complete with whipped cream, syrup and fruit compote!

[laurie etc]

I think feeeding raw is rather an "art form" - you need to look at your dogs critically every few days or so, decide whether they are "right" and adjust the food accordingly. My 8 are all slightly different in their energy and feeding requirements, but I generally know who is going to get the biggest cut (or two pieces), and who is going to get the smallest. I have a couple of "hard keepers" who always eat more than everybody else, and a couple that (like Kristi's Bear) always get a smaller ration. Also, as Kristi mentioned, two or three days of strenuous exercise or trialing might require raising the food amount for that particular dog to maintain proper weight, or a few days of being a couch potato might plump one up that normally is trim. Also, when I feed bonier cuts - like stripped chicken frames, I have to figure that the actually calories from fat/protein is lower because of the meat/bone ratio. I've also used oatmeal to add calories for the winter and hard keepers, and have recently tried the EVO food as a backup and extra calorie source for my dogs. WOW, I had forgotten how convenient feeding from a bag is.

[Root Beer]

I haven't read this book yet but I've been on Carina's yahoo group for years. Raw Dog Food - Making It Easy

By the way, I have read this book when I first started to switch Speedy over to raw and I highly recommend it to anyone who is just starting or thinking about feeding raw. The author is very, very practical and easy to understand. It's a short read and it's full of tons of very good information.

[Pat W.]

-------------------------------------------------

Laurie wrote:

I think feeeding raw is rather an "art form" - you need to look at your dogs critically every few days or so, decide whether they are "right" and adjust the food accordingly.

-------------------------------------------------

 

You are absolutely right, there is no one way to feed raw. The key is to know your dog(s), their energy/activity level and so forth. Ashe is an air plant SHOW him pictures of food and he gains weight, Rush 6mos younger at 12 is a tough keeper, Riley 6 yr aussie and Meg 5 yr Bc are very active atheletic dogs. When I started doing raw I had very regular "weigh ins" to monitor the gain/loss weight. I watched their condition, activity/energy lvls and adjusted accordingly. Since 3 of the 4 dogs compete in agility I feed more during the competition season and less in in the off season, I also throw in a fasting day every once in a while if they have had a particuarly large meal. I shot for about 1# of meat per dog (less in winter) and feed once a day. I started raw under the guidance of Ian Billinghursts book "Give your dog a Bone" and went from there. I started with adding plain yogurt to build up their intestinal flora and fauna and introduced raw knuckle bones which were somewhat meatly but mostly bone and entirely consumeable, while cutting back on kibble. I then added chicken necks and backs (be aware that backs can have quite a bit of fat in them). After about of month of just chix, I added some veggie mush (veggies can be gotten quite cheaply by contacting your grocer and asking for their "trimmings" from the produce dept. I get large boxes for somewhere between free and $1 a box. You want dark green leafy veggies, ie Romaine, Boston Butter, Chicory, a few carrots or apples to sweeten is fine, broccoli, cauliflower, parsley, spinach ect. Never greenpeppers, tomatos, or onions. I just sort through the boxes when I get them home. Different things were added one at a time to look for any type of reactions or problems. My gang now happily eats: chix, turkey (love the carcasses),rabbit (except for Ashe --ew-w-w-), Liver of any kind, venison, buffalo, and very rarely ostrich or emu (too pricey) One time I got traechia with a group of friends, since it was frozen into one solid block we had to break it appart. My co op meets in an overflow parking lot of a local Mall for convienence and you should have seen the place. Looked like we were commiting mass murder. We had hammers and chisles to get the stuff apart there was blood everywhere :eek: . Dogs loved them though.

 

If you cannot find a co op in your area go to the meat dept in your grocery ask them if they can order in chix neck/back turkey neck/back ect for you in bulk, Im sure they would be happy to. If you live in the city with a ethnic grocery go there to look for thinks like pigs feet, chitlins (gross) tripe (stinky) ect. In the country as I said look for someone that processes game meats.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Raw

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm still wiping away the tears from your desscription of the Parking Lot Trachea Massacre.

 

I just culled a piddly lamb that wasn't gonna make it another day. You should have seen me trying to hide in the barn from my kids - they see a lot of the facts of life here but I don't think they are ready to watch Mama murder a lamb and cut it up!

 

The dogs, on the other hand, were VERY happy to watch. We're having a very primal day here now. Merry Christmas doggies!

[Kitch]

In case you haven't already, check out these threads:

 

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=001279#000000

 

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=001275#000000

 

http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...t=001273#000000

 

 

There are a bunch of threads on the topic if you use the search function.

[Howdyjabo]

Sometimes I think you guys make way too much of this feeding raw stuff---

I have been doing it for over 20 years-- they get whatever the farm has as refuse-if theres alot they get alot-Their job is to dispose of as much of it as they can.

I feed some cheap dog food every couple of days - they seem to crave junk.

When the "meat" is in short supply I feed the cheap dog food.

They could care less how I feed them as long as I feed them something. And their system seems to be able to handle anything I give them.

I think the dogs digestive system becomes alot more adaptive-- when given the chance to be adaptive more often.

So my suggestion is to throw whatever cheap meat you can find to them- and it really doesn't have to be human grade food. My dogs like to "season" the extras and dig it up latter for a snack.

 

-- the hunters around here swear by chicken heads,guts and legs- and during cold spells they will go to the stock yard and buy a cheap cull take it to the lot and drop it- And thats what the dogs got to eat for the next week or month.

[bcnewe2]

How many of you feed veggies in with the raw meat? I'm seriously thinking about making the switch. All my dogs are having some sort of trouble or another. I'm always reading labels of dog food thinking they all sound like trash.

I just ordered the book, "raw food, making it easy" that was recommended. I have read Ian B.?s book but that just scarred me. I like what Killer H said. That's me, I worry to much and I don?t want to! If feeding raw is easier and the cost is affordable then I think I'm going to jump in.

 

Lately, some of my dogs are stinky, and their coats look like crap. The fat ones are staying fat no matter how I adjust their kibble and the thin ones stay that way.

My 2 yr. old male who's just getting over Lyme's and rocky m. spotted fever could really use a boost. His coat and wieght are fine, and his appetite is good. He's felt so bad for so long I'm just happy to see him feeling good and working sheep again. I'd love to speed his healing along with better nutrition.

Maybe it can be our new years resoloution. Heaven forbid I try to lose some weight or try to be healthier myself. I'd rather worry about the dogs!

TIA

Kristen

[Kitch]

I feed veggies as well as meat but I might be changing that. I originally made the choice to feed veggies simply because Dublin loved them. I am copying and pasting a post of mine from a thread a few months ago:

Raw Diet: I recently switched and I have to say that I found the raw diet to be CHEAPER than when I had Dublin on a good quality kibble. I don't buy ground meat, I let Dublin eat bones and all. I also make up and freeze a veggie "glop". I just buy whatever is available at the local grocery store - if it is on sale great, if not, oh well - and it is still cheaper. Add to that, the fact that I no longer have to buy him treats like booda bones or greenies (he gets to chew on real bones and couldn't care less about those treats now) plus the fact that I don't have to spend $150 a year on teeth cleaning and I am actually saving a bunch of money!

 

As for time, I spend a few hours evey 2 weeks. I recently emailed someone my feeding system:

 

How I feed:

 

I have two parts of the diet - the veggie part and the meat part. I like to make things easy because I am generally a very busy person. It is best to steam the veggies as it helps to break down the cell walls and makes the nutrients more bio-available for the dog. (In the wild, the dog would be getting the contents of their preys stomach similarly broken down by the prey's stomach acid). About every 2 weeks or so I make a large batch of glob and freeze it in individual containers. The ingredients aren't the same every time but I always try to get dark green leafy veggies and squash or sweet potato (yams) as part of the mix.

 

General ingredients for the veggie glop (veggies are steamed):

 

Broccoli

zucchini

squash

sweet potato (peeled)

carrots (with tops/greens as well)

kale

beets (I don't use these anymore as Dublin doesn't like them, but your dog might)

beans

 

As I said earlier, I don't necessarily use all of these veggies everytime; just what is available.

 

I also throw in plain yogurt (probiotic is the best), eggs (shell and all), fruit (bananas, strawberries and raspberries are a big hit with Dublin), random organ meat.

 

I usually toss the yogurt and eggs in the blender to give it a good liquid base, then throw in the veggies as they are steamed. I toss in the organ meat to add flavor and to get Dublin to eat them as he much prefers veggies over liver, but then he is an odd dog. Once it is blended, I pour it into plastic containers (I use storage containers I bought specifically for this as well as plastic butter tubs I have washed out and kept.). Once I fill the containers I throw in Dublin's fish oil capsules and other vitamins into each container and pop them in the freezer. The whole process takes about an hour and I am good for another 2 weeks.

 

Now for the meat: I look for sales and stock up when things are on sale. I have found that odd cuts and organ meat tend to be really cheap here as they aren't big sellers. I now test the individual food on Dublin before I buy large quantities of it. (By large I mean the family size packet - I only have a standard size, small freezer that comes with the refrigerator so I don't buy HUGE amounts of anything). I learned this the hard way. I found a great deal on pigs feet and bought a large package only to find out that Dublin really doesn't like them. He isn't too fond of Cornish Game Hens either, but like I said, he is an odd dog. Chicken backs are great if you can find them because they often have organ meat attached. I haven't been able to find them around me, but I am told they are pretty common in most places. I feed all parts of the chicken, turkey necks when I can get them, pork and beef neck as well as pork and beef ribs. Some people feed rabbit or mutton, which is great if you can find it, but again, I have had trouble finding it around here. Basically any form of meat is fine - use whatever you can find easily and cheaply as long as it is good quality. I also feed fish, specifically sardines as Dublin likes them. I can get 2 cans of sardines packed in water for $1.

 

As for organ meat, I usually just toss it in with his veggie glop or throw a bit into his bowl when I give him an RMB. Too much of the organ meat at once can give them digestive issues as it is very rich but used in moderation it is fine. I usually can find a large tub of chicken gizzard and hearts really cheap. Same for chicken liver or beef liver. Other organs are hard to find around me, but I recently was able to buy kidney. Green tripe is supposed to be really good for them, but I can't find it anywhere around me - farming communities or ethnic stores sometimes have it available I am told.

 

I usually feed organ meat to Dublin about 1-2 times a week. To make it quicker and easier for me, I usually bag the RMBs and organ meat up into individual servings so I can just reach into the freezer and grab a bag and dump it into his dish. Again, it takes about 30 minutes to an hour and I am good for about 2 weeks worth of meals. So I basically spend 1.5 to 2 hours every two weeks on his meals.

 

In the morning I grab a container of the glop from the freezer and drop it into his dish before I leave for work. He gets to lick/gnaw/eat this while he waits in his crate for me to come home. It is usually gone by the time I get home (though not the ones with beets as I recently discovered he doesn't like them). After I take Dublin for his evening exercise, I give him his RMB. He gnaws on that for a while until it is gone and then he is through for the day.

I may be reducing or eliminating the veggies in the future though. I originally fed veggies because Dublin loved them, but in the past week or so, he doesn't appear to care for them anymore. Maybe he has decided he prefers just meat? Every dog is different, so use whatever works for your dog.