Sue R Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Our 3 year old Megan (the puppy mill/Swa**ord breeding adoptee) has been having some unusual symptoms. Maybe someone here can shed some light on it. A couple of weeks ago, I notice a fingernail-sized, firm "lump" along her back. Thinking it was from an abrasion when working (and ducking under cattle gates), I watched it. No change. But - then I noticed more of them (including a spot on the sclera of the eye and one eyelid) and we went to the vet. She's got about a dozen of them, generally the same size and shape when on the body (a few are smaller - maybe "new" bumps that aren't full-sized yet?), with the one on the side of the head being more elongated (and the ones on the eye and eyelid being smaller). They are all in the skin (or on the sclera). The vet thought it an allergic reaction to something probably environmental, took some needle aspirates and found only sebaceous material, and put her on antibiotics and antihistamine. No change. Five days after starting the antibiotics, I noticed her glands behind the jaw were swollen. No fever, no loss of appetite, everything else normal. Back to the vet where he called in another vet to check her, and then took a punch biopsy which he sent to the vet pathologist at WVU. The report came back yesterday - no cancer cells, thank goodness. But, no answers, either. Megan is still the same - no changes in the "lumps", no fever, glands in neck still swollen, still as active and eager as ever. I am taking her in tomorrow to take blood to test for tick-borne diseases. We have great vets and I have confidence in them, but I'd like to know if anybody here has ever had anything like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 There is a lady here in VA that had a young bitch with these same symptoms. It was diagnosed as some rare disease (not fatal)... but of course I can not recall the name of it. I will e-mail her and ask, then get back to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStacks Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Sue, I wish I had some insight. Please keep us updated. Zoey is from the same puppy mill and just in case this is related I would like to add it to my watch list. Lauren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Christine - Thank you! Please let me know what you find out. My vet is wonderful about letting me give him input on things and doesn't offend when I ask questions or have thoughts on something concerning the dogs. Lauren - Megan is not directly from Swa**ford but has a couple of bitches in her sire's line. Needless to say, it's a similar situation and, if there's a genetic "link", you would be well warned to know what Megan has when we find out. In our Family Dog Obedience class that started last week, there was a very petite, neutered male Border Collie (cute as could be - one ear up and one ear down). He was from Swa**ord and the owner, who innocently bought him via the internet, had come to his own suspicions about the ethics of the breeder. This dog came to him filty, scrawny, terrified, etc., but is now surely in a very good home, thank goodness. He is still very shy but blooming with love and care, and trusting and confident with his owner and family. The promised registration papers have not come (the dog is supposedly ABCA) and I warned him to not expect them as Swa**ord can't register ABCA (although he does have ways of getting around that, I understand, by having others be the "breeders" of the pups he sells, etc.). The owner doesn't need the papers but just wondered why Swa**ord hasn't fulfilled his end of the sale by supplying the promised papers after a couple of months. Since the pup was older when sold, I expect he was a return or one that never sold in the first place. At least the pup is in good hands now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 It would be worthwhile for that puppy's owners to pursue getting the papers, at least to the extent of a few nagging emails. If they succeed (assuming the papers exist, of course), it would keep him from using those papers for another dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I'm not sure what you mean, Eileen. PM me if you need to explain. I will see him in class tonight and can check out if he has heard back and encourage him to pursue the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sue, If the owner of the young dog you know has the papers in hand then Swafford doesn't have them himself. If he has them, he can just claim that they are the papers of some other dog in his possession and the next unsuspecting buyer may be none the wiser. I believe this is basically what he got in trouble for in the first place--falsifying pedigrees (it would be like me taking one of my dogs' pedigrees and "attaching it to another dog of similar look and age--I could then sell the second dog as the first and the buyer would have no real way of knowing s/he wasn't really getting the dog listed on the papers). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStacks Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I too waited FOREVER for papers from him. I nagged and went on a letter writing rampage to all his advertisers and organizations to the point where he threatened to sue me. He finally sent me the vaccination records and I disputed the credit card charges for her. Luckily I kept all his nasty emails and his admission that he knew the pup had problems and that he did his best to hide them. Please encourage this owner to pursue this and not give up. I cannot stand this man. He needs to be stopped. Unfortunately, I cannot do it alone. Lauren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStacks Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sue- Forgot to mention, in humans a genetic disease called Neurofibramatosis II can cause bumps similar to what you are describing. Not sure if there is a canine form or something similiar. But you may mention that. Lauren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sue, what Eileen means is that this guy was using the registration papers for one dog on a different dog. Like if you bred a litter and then registered those pups, but instead of giving the correct papers of that pup over to a new owner, you would use those papers for a totally different pup not even from that litter. Maybe could have been a "mistake" litter or mother to son, etc. Or if you breed Fluffy to FooFoo, but then use papers from say a well known imported sire. Makes that litter seem better than they actually are. Better bred pups... more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Hi Christine, Moving back on topic--were you thinking of histiocytosis/malignant histiocytosis? Sue, Here's a few links for the above disease. It's common in Bernese Mountain Dogs. I think the dog we know with this condition had other symptoms (beyond skin growths) as well, though, didn't she Christine (it's been long enough that I can't really remember)? http://www.histiocytosis.ucdavis.edu/ http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/lamp/ http://ajp.amjpathol.org/cgi/content/abstract/148/5/1699 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt=Abstract Don't panic when you read the above, but it may be worth mentioning to your vet, in case s/he wants to rule it out. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Oh, my goodness, Julie! I did look at some of these references and I am about to panic! Megan is going in this afternoon to have a blood sample taken to rule out tick-borne diseases. I am printing this page and taking it with me to see Dr. Tom this afternoon. He is a great vet and doesn't care how we find out what she has but just that we can diagnose and treat her the best we can. He doesn't have an ego that gets in the way, bless his heart. Thank you all. I will let you know what we find out. Thanks, Lauren, for the comments on Swa**ord. I will encourage him to pursue this but, since papers are neither necessary or very important to him (no breeding - thank goodness - or AKC interest), he may just forego the frustration. When I got Celt, Karen gave me the paperwork that I submitted to ABCA. Is it done differently now? Other than DNA, what proof is there that any particular pup(s) came from any particular sire/dam? It sounds to me like a great deal rests on personal integrity and, when someone is lacking in that aspect of his/her character, well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 The vet pathologist said there were no signs of cancerous cells, so that may rule out the worst of these conditions (Histiocytic sarcoma and Malignant histiocytosis). However, the Cutaneous histiocytosis (CH) sounds like a possibility and so does the Systemic histiocytosis (SH) (which includes not only skin lesions but ocular and lymph gland, which Megan seems to have). None of these alternatives sound very good to me. But, she hasn't been diagnosed with them, either, so my fingers are crossed and my prayers are said that it will be something we can deal with. These diseases seem to produce "lesions" which appear (from the photos and from what I thought a lesion was) to be hairless and even raw-looking. Megan's spots are just lumps in the skin - no loss of hair, no irritated or raw surfaces, no scabbing. Of course, I don't know how aged the lesions were in the pictures. We know Megan's spots were not noticed until about three weeks ago, and she gets lots of petting time, so I think we would have seen them pretty soon after they were detectable. Thanks so much, Julie, for the references. I would not have found them on my own. Thank you also, Christine, for checking on this for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 I had Megan to the vet yesterday afternoon and took the wonderful references that Julie supplied. The vet pathologist had looked for the very cell structures, etc., that are typical of histiocytosis diseases. Fortunately, she did not find the tissue sample to be indicative of any of those diseases. They drew a blood sample and we should have the results by tomorrow, letting us know if she is positive for any of the three major tick-borne diseases. If she is, the vet wants to try doxycycline (sp?). If she isn't, we'll have to continue to explore possibilities. Thanks for your help, friends! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Julie, I think that is it! Thanks for remembering. Midge's owner e-mailed me back and asked for Sue's e-mail address so she could contact her privately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 I just got back the results from the tick-borne diseases tests - she is negative for Lyme's, erlichiosis (sp?), and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. Our vet will be in tomorrow and is calling me to talk it over. I am going to bring up the Histiocytosis question again, and find out just why the vet pathologist felt the biopsy didn't indicate that. Was it because Megan wasn't one of the susceptible breeds, or did the biopsy truly indicate that histiocytosis was not in evidence. I know she did ask our vet if Megan was a Bernese Mountain Dog - but I don't know why other than that they are prone to this disease. Thanks for all your concerns. I am looking forward to hearing from Verna. I will be gone on Wednesday morning and won't be back until next Wednesday evening. If I can check my email at Sam's, I will, in case someone tries to contact me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Sue, I will PM you Verna's e-mail. She is supposed to be at Sam's, but when I spoke to her Friday her dog was lame, so she may not show. I don't have her phone number handy, but Christine might. If I had to guess, I would sy that the description of Megan's symptoms was reminiscent enough of histiocytosis that it prompted the question since the disease is quite prevalent in that breed. It's possible that once the pathologist found out the patient *wasn't* a Bernese Mntn Dog, s/he dismissed histiocytosis as a possibility? It's worth asking your vet that very question. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Julie - That is precisely what I plan on doing when I talk to him tomorrow. I just didn't pursue it last week when he brought that up because it didn't occur to me. However, if the vet path felt it was "out of the question" because Megan isn't a "susceptible or prone" breed, then I need to know if the sample indicated it could be the disease but it was just dismissed for that reason. However, I expect that Dr. Tom would already have considered this, but I am not leaving it to chance. He'll call me tomorrow when he's at the clinic and we'll talk it over. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 I did talk to the vet last Wednesday morning. He let me know that the vet path did not find any indications of systemic histiocytosis in the biopsy sample. I just got back yesterday from a week away. Megan's glands at the back of her jaw are no longer swollen but her bumps (except for the one on her cheek) are larger, there are more of them, and some are beginning to "seep" very small amounts of clear fluid. I had noticed a reduction in the gland size and some changes in the bumps before I left - some bumps were a bit "flatter" (and those are the ones that are seeping) and some were just showing some slight changes in skin color (small pink "streaks" in the skin or a flattened, yellowish appearance). I called Dr. Tom and Megan is now on Baytril and Prednisone. She has no fever, no lethargy, eats and drinks well, is full of her normal energy, etc. We'll see how the meds help her and go from there. I am not convinced that it's not systemic histiocytosis because a biopsy and its reading aren't guaranteed 100%, but I am giving the meds a chance. Thanks for everyone's concern and help. I'll let you know how it goes. Happy Thanksgiving, guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 A teammate has a golden retriever has come up with tons of bumps and they were growing at a rapid rate. The vets thought it was cutaneous lymphoma but the biopsy came back negative. The dog also had some ear infections caused by yeast. The vets are assuming that the bumps are also caused by yeast. They are thinking just a severe yeast infection. Have you thought about yeast? Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 No, I sure haven't. I will give the vet a call and ask about the possibility of yeast. Right now, with two full days on the new meds, I am noticing no reduction in the lumps but I am not finding any seepage from them either. I may not be able to call the vet until Monday or Tuesday (I don't think he's in on Monday). If I can catch him tomorrow, I will ask him then. By the way, Megan was on an antibiotic when I first noticed the bumps. If my memory serves, sometimes antibiotic use can encourage yeast as it reduces both beneficial and harmful bacteria. I will surely ask him about this. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Hi Sue I wonder if you could define the bumps abit more.. you see my sammy (houndX) has what are described as cysts. They vary in size but generally start smallish then get larger as they fill with gunk, they can be pinky, blacky grey (like a black head) or dull yellowish depending on the skin tone of the area and also whether it has ruptured and come incontact with the air or not. What they all have in common is the same waxy crud in them or encapsulated nugget of white translucent white goop, often I will be petting her and come across a lump that has ruptured and their will be a plug in it if it hasn't fully drained... kinda gross but nothing to worry about. She generally has between 2-8 of them on her body at a time. All in different stages of growth or drainage some never rupture and just go away, some seem to get stuck in a cycle of growing rupturing and growing again... All this to say I'm sure it was the first thing your vet ruled out... being the least dangerous and easiest to diagnose.. but I just thought I would mention it incase it was overlooked in favor or more scary things as can happen when scary things are what you deal with day to day. Sams bumps will leak clear fluid, weep if you will if the kin surrouding them is sufficiently irritated or too robustly handled. She has had them on her muzzle (looked like a wart) and all over her body, even between her toes, not on an eyelid yet, although I'm sure its just a matter of time. I hope your answers come quickly and they are positive and not scary, Not knowing is always the hardest part.. you are in limbo can't go forward can't go back. Just love her as much as you can Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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