Sport Breeding

[SoloRiver]

Look folks,

 

(a) I AM an agility handler.

 

( I own a fashion-colored Border Collie. (I was not looking for a red dog when I got him -- I wasn't even really looking for a Border Collie. I was looking AT a Border Collie, because I'd never seen a real one before. When I saw that Solo was red, thinking that all Border Collies were black and white, I sort of said, "Ew." Of course, now red is beautiful to me.) Solo is my soulmate. Yes, I realize that when I take him to a sheepdog trial there are probably people who believe I got him for his color and who will peg me as an AKC type because I have a red dog and because he is handsome, but that's the shakes. If they get to know me and my dog they'll quickly learn it isn't the case.

 

I have a problem with breeding for sports for two reasons. One, because there is already a surplus of good dogs out there, and no reason to breed dogs specifically for an activity that existing breeding practices already cater to nicely. Two, the very concept a dog bred specifically for sports is the antithesis of what I think dog sports should be. Dog sports are supposed to be about having fun with your dog, one that you love for himself, not about winning at all costs. Breeding specifically for sports reduces dogs to the level of sports equipment. This bothers me.

 

Hey, I like certain colors. I even think merle is pretty but I'd never have one unless it was a rescue, since I have yet to see the merle dog that wasn't bred primarily for color (I am of the belief that it is NEVER the case that the best working stud available is a merle -- they are simply too rare, it's statistically implausible). I happen to love red. If a good working-bred litter was on the ground and there happened to be a red puppy, yes, I would pick the red puppy purely on the basis of color, BUT that is assuming that the litter was bred for the right reasons in the first place. If there was even a hint of "and I hope we get reds in the litter" I'd run in the other direction.

 

Laurie mentioned that selection for "over the top drive" in Sport Collies might be problematic, and I agree with her. Breeding for work gets you plenty of drive, but more importantly it also gets you self-control and common sense. Sport dogs never have to exhibit the level of self-control a talented, useful working dog does, and if you don't select for it, I think you lose it.

 

How does it go? "Forgive them, father, they know not what they do?"

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>> Yes, I realize that when I take him to a sheepdog trial there are probably people who believe I got him for his color and who will peg me as an AKC type because I have a red dog and because he is handsome, but that's the shakes. If they get to know me and my dog they'll quickly learn it isn't the case.<<

 

First day I showed up to a local spring trial with a red dog named Roo. People made good and not-so good comments...such as breeding for color, since when you decided to go red, etc.

 

I ignored them and ran Roo in Nursery. He placed 2nd out of 9 dogs and beat some of the top handlers.

 

People then strolled over and asked about this *red dog*...told them it was a Tess pup and he just came from running at the CowDog Nursery Finals. Tess's sire was red.

 

Now, he is accepted and does really well. He even has a fan club and a couple of local big hats have asked to buy him....everytime at a trial.

 

I do not own him but am training him for my friend, Ron. Roo and I will be going to the Sheepdog Final and hopefully will hold our own in Nursery. Ron put his order in for a Tess pup about 2 yrs before she was bred and wanted the first born male. The red was a bonus for him but he wanted the first borne male regardless of color.

 

Interesting enough his siblings also run at the same trial and the litter ususally places in the top 20%.

 

I look at Roo and don't see what color he is on the outside but see his big heart.

[laurie etc]

Here's another oddity...and maybe a reason that some agility folks tend to look for proven agility dog litters rather than going to herding breeders...For a while East Coast agility people were going to the cattleherding lines from farther West, (smooth prick-eared dogs for the most part)due to certain glitzy web advertising. Somehow, seeing a picture of a Border Collie hanging off the end of a steer's nose on a website was supposed to make this an ideal agility prospect.(?) I know a number of people who "imported" these fine agility prospects. Here's the problem...many of them have quite sketchy (dominant, agressive, or reactive) temperaments. Maybe part of what makes them so good at herding (gripping) cattle is their dominant, "not taking no for an answer" attitude. This is fine on a ranch or at a herding trial, where dogs are not exposed to each other in close quarters, and have a job to do that overides their interaction with each other. But in agility venues, dogs are often crammed "sardine like" into crating areas, and have to stand/pass each other, bunched up waiting in line for their 60 seconds of glory in the ring. The adrenyline levels are high. Over reactive or dominant personality dogs can have a hard time in this scenario. I've heard a number of comments from agility people that they will not get a dog from a herding background, "because herding dogs are too aggressive". There are breeders of ABCA herding dogs, who are breeding with the almighty dollar as a priority, and "pushing" to the agility junkies, who are actually compounding the problem.... (I am not referring to anyone on this list at all, just an observation).

[Pipedream Farm]

Airbear, you may be right. I'm sure there are those who might not sell to non-working homes. I know when we got Duncan, we were turned down by one breeder. I actually got Duncan initially to be a pet and to go on hiking trips. I simply called someone else. I think many breeders would be happy knowing their pup is going to a home where it will be well cared for and that it will be more than a backyard pet. The breeder we got him from asked lots of questions about why we wanted a border collie and what we planned to do with him. I do understand what you're saying, but certainly there are breeders out there that will sell to sport homes.

I know I certainly didn't mean to bash anyone. I simply was surprised at how different things were. I certainly would recommend anyone thinking about getting a bc for sport to get a rescue or one from working lines. I wasn't about to enter a "my dog is better than your dog" discussion at the event. It is good to hear from others that have posted that people are competing with dogs from working lines as well.

Renee

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I don't see red as much of a fashion color as, say, merle or lilac or blonde(?). Red is carried in many of the old working lines. There may have been prejudice against red dogs by old timers, but red didn't (and still doesn't) have to be deliberately bred for to show up. To me that's a huge difference. For example, my Twist was the product of a breeding between two B&W dogs. There were three B&W and two red pups. After they were born, the reaction was more "oh yeah, there is red in those lines." But the two dogs were bred for the way their working abilities complemented one another with no thought about color (or coat or any other appearance issue). I don't think the same can be said of any merle or other designer color breeding.

 

I have three red dogs, two of whom were given to me. Maybe people who see my red dogs think I have a thing for red dogs. That's their problem, not mine.

 

I agree with all the folks here who have very eloquently stated their reasons against sport dog breeders. To be honest, I am one of those people who would much rather see my working-bred pups go into sport homes, which I know are generally good, versus some of the working homes I've seen. My first choice would of course be good working homes, but reality dictates that there aren't that many working homes out there, and if you limit yourself to the ones who keep dogs in a way that meets your criteria of "well kept," then there are even fewer available working homes.

 

I'm sorry if many in the sport world find approaching working dog folk intimidating. Most of us are regular people just like them!

 

J.

[Rave]

I've heard a number of comments from agility people that they will not get a dog from a herding background, "because herding dogs are too aggressive".

 

Ugh, I've heard this as well unfortunately. I do try to educate, I show them my dogs and talk about local herding lines and urge them to go out to visit the dogs and see their temperments firsthand. But then again, I know of some local agility lines that throw aggressive pups too. You just have to do your research.

 

There are breeders of ABCA herding dogs, who are breeding with the almighty dollar as a priority, and "pushing" to the agility junkies, who are actually compounding the problem

 

One problem I see is these breeders you speak of have realized that sport folks will pay a heckuva lot more for a pup than most herding folks. It's simple supply and demand.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

The reason sport folks are willing to pay more is that is the norm within the conformation crowd and they have been taught that conformation breeders do all the testing necessary to insure their dogs will be sound.

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

I do try to educate, I show them my dogs and talk about local herding lines and urge them to go out to visit the dogs and see their temperments firsthand.... You just have to do your research.

I do some of my best thinking while I'm doing menial tasks -I've been outside repainting farmgates today...here's my brainstorm to get the ball rolling... (disclaimer- I also could be high from paint fumes and heat...)

 

What if - the USBCHA in conjunction with the ABCA and the local/regional organizations came up with a scheme to offset the glitzy website "pushers". What if $.50 from every herding trial entry fee collected went to education by way of website information (or other publications), whether on the USBCHA web, ABCA's web, or local Association webs. What if there was a contact person available for each region, who could let people know if "approved breeders" in each region,had a litter expected, and their contact information. There would also be links for local rescue organizations, and their contact numbers. This "breeder list" would be voluntary on the part of the breeders, and these breeders would have to be current local association members, or USBCHA members in good standing, and would have to provide pedigrees, health information and sign an "ethical breeder" statement in conjunction with the mission of the ABCA. There would be a small charge for litter listings, which again would go back to educational/health research funding. Breeders could state upfront if they were willing to consider "non-herding" homes.

(When I was involved with Golden Retrievers, my local club did this, and I always felt secure referring people to the "list", since I knew that they had to be responsible, ethical breeders to participate.)

 

comments?

[Kitch]

I'm just starting in agility so most of this thread has been educational for me and some parts of it I'm sure will become more clear to me, the more experienced I get I honestly hadn't thought too much about the whole 'bred for sport' concept, naive I guess. I am just getting into agility for something to do with my dog - I know we will most likely never win (not because Dublin couldn't win, but because I am soooo far from being a good handler at this point, it is scary). I do know my favorite dog to watch run was a basset hound in the advanced levels - he ran clean but obviously didn't have the speed needed to win. For me it epitomized the ideal for dog sports - someone who obviously loved to spend time with his dog and was in it for fun.

 

As for color - I have a color preference: black with very little white. Why? I guess because we always had black dogs growing up (black and tan coonhounds, which are mostly black)Did I pick Dublin based on his markings? No, he was the only pup available; but I certainly wasn't disappointed in his looks. I don't understand the candy-colored comments, though, as I haven't seem some of the crazier colors listed here, but they certainly don't sound appealing.

[Smokjbc]

Maybe part of what makes them so good at herding (gripping) cattle is their dominant, "not taking no for an answer" attitude. This is fine on a ranch or at a herding trial, where dogs are not exposed to each other in close quarters, and have a job to do that overides their interaction with each other.>>Laura

 

Hi...

 

I just wanted to jump in here and share my perspective on this. I have heard this from both non-herding and sheepdog folks and from my personal experience of over 10 years with cow dog trialing, I don't find this to be true. I happen to own a dog (wish I owned a few more) that will hang off a cow's nose and you wouldn't know it from being around her. She's very soft, submissive with people and fine with other dogs (although she thinks non-border collies qualify as livestock to be kept an eye on- she never has been aggressive towards those dogs) She actually wouldn't make a good agility dog, not because of aggression or over-reaction, but she simply wouldn't see the point . Honestly, I know many dogs like her that are even good with the ranch kids, that are biddable and nice dogs to be around but who also are good cow dogs. Some of them are even slick coated and prick eared . I have another dog that is very McCullum type- not super aggressive on cows but will heel aggressively- she, in her brief "we have nothing better to do right now" agility career was the star of the class. She also is an excellent dog to live with and while she has alot of energy, she is in no way a dominant dog or difficult to handle. She is fine with any dog, and exceptional with puppies. I know countless dogs that I have met at trials are the same, while I'm sure there are individuals that have "issues", I've never met one of them in public at a trial or when at ranches. I've met far more manipulative,flaky or difficult dogs from pet homes than I ever met from cow dog lines. I have seen way too many dogs that work differently than they act off of stock to put any credence in the idea that appropriate aggression on any type of livestock is a temperament question rather than a working method question.

[laurie etc]

Jaime -I'm glad to hear that - that's how it should be. I certainly didn't think that it was true about all cattle herding Border Collies -but quite a few that have been sent "east" have been too "tough" to do well in an agility setting. Maybe it's handler problem more than a dog problem...but it doesn't take much to form opinions, especially in an agility community.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Kitch:

I don't understand the candy-colored comments, though, as I haven't seem some of the crazier colors listed here, but they certainly don't sound appealing.

There is nothing WRONG with the "candy coloured" dogs, what's wrong is the mentality behind producing them. Breeding for neat-o colours and criteria other than working ability is becoming more prevelant as the popularity of the breed (for pet, show and sport) increases. I can practically chart just how insidious it is by the number of reactions I have gotten to my red dogs over the years.

 

When RD was a pup to about 2-3 years, almost NO ONE knew what he was and that included other border collie owners (he is almost 9 years old). Reds were not common. I even had people argue with me about his breed. As he got older and I got Tweed, also red, the "What kind of dog is that?" questions began to become less frequent. Nowadays, almost everyone recognizes them as border collies right away, unless they think they are Aussies.

 

Personally, I have a soft spot for red dogs as I think it's beautiful. RD was given to me, Tweed was adopted as a pup from rescue with the criteria "I want the most docile male pup in the litter" and it happened to be red (and he also happens to not be docile, but that's a whole 'nother story). Piper is black and white I kept her because she showed drive and working ability. I still like the red dogs, but it would not be one of my motivating criteria for getting a fourth dog, if I were considering a fourth dog.

 

I am not a fan of merles on the whole, as it just doesn't really appeal to me, but I have met some beautiful merles, including a couple who can *really* work. But another way I can chart the prevelance of colour breeding is by the dogs showing up in rescue. In the last year alone I have taken in two merles, multiple red and whites, some sables, a lemon and most recently a brindle. As recently as 2-3 years ago, the odd sable or tri would show up, but the vast majority of dogs were black and white "classic" looking dogs.

 

RDM

[juliepoudrier]

As with anything else, when people have a bad experience with a dog (or any other animal), it's much easier to blame the breeding than to blame the raising. Although this isn't cattle country in the sense that it is out west, I know plenty of dogs with plenty of bite that aren't terribly aggressive toward other dogs or animals.

 

But let one person (or a few people) have a bad experience for whatever reason, and the mentality suddenly becomes "all cowdogs are bad." I have to wonder how closely they looked at the other dogs from that breeding, or even the parents to see if the personalities were something they could live with. Personally I think it's just as likely to get an impossible-to-live-with dog when you choose from a breeding that looks only to speed and drive for dog sports instead of the all-around good working sense that most working dog breeders should be breeding for.

 

J.

[Rave]

Speaking of sport people buying herding dogs, I have a flyball friend looking to buy a pup. They have two BC's now who are aging and are looking to bring up a youngster. Anyone know of any local or semi-local litters (NC) either on the ground or due soon? If so, please email me.

[Pipedream Farm]

Now I have something to chuckle about. A mental image of Rae the aggressive, to be feared border collie ! After all, she did nip at some sheep this morning to get them out of the shed. If you don't know her, she's the biggest mush you could ever imagine! I had never heard that before about people thinking they were too aggressive.

Renee

[airbear]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

I'm sorry if many in the sport world find approaching working dog folk intimidating. Most of us are regular people just like them!

I'm lucky in that my herding friends are VERY tolerant of my ignorance, my ill-behaved dogs, and my closet agility habit. Plus, I try and pitch in and help (work at trials, maintain the association's website, etc.). Thus, I haven't had what I would call a bad experience with anyone. With sheep, yes, but not with the handlers.

 

I've even had an opportunity to show some fairly big hats what agility is, since we practice in the barn next to my friend's house, and she often puts up the clinician during his stay. While these 'big hats' are appreciative of Wick's abilities on agility equipment, they sure wouldn't try it with their dogs. I've been told, "I wouldn't want my dog to go looking for a ball on his outrun". Sorta the flip side of "I don't want my dog nipping at me, which she would if she learned it's ok to grip sheep".

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've been told, "I wouldn't want my dog to go looking for a ball on his outrun". Sorta the flip side of "I don't want my dog nipping at me, which she would if she learned it's ok to grip sheep".

Except I've actually seen dogs leave sheep to go looking for balls, sticks, etc - while I've never seen a properly trained working dog dare to bite the hand that gives him stock. At least, it wouldn't happen because he confused his master with a sheep.

[airbear]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

Except I've actually seen dogs leave sheep to go looking for balls, sticks, etc

Really? Wow! I guess I've always believed that for a working border collie, the true reward is the sheep, and nothing short of death could take their focus off their job. Even my aussie wouldn't look twice at a toy (or food) when he's hunting, er, working.

 

My borderline collie will do weavepoles in the same field as the sheep, as she has no interest in the sheep.

[juliepoudrier]

I hope Rebecca is talking about dogs who aren't making the grade as workers. I wouldn't really want to put a lot of training time into a dog that would leave livestock for a ball or other toy.

 

Anyway, I really don't see how whatever motivator you use for agility (or even agility itself) could actually "ruin" a good stock dog. I have my dogs fetch balls all the time, but when we have work to do with the stock, they aren't stopping to pick up a ball on the way.

 

I know of a dog that will pick up a stick when she's under a lot of pressure herding, but she just carries the stick and keeps working (that is, she doesn't leave the stock to find a stick or once she's found the stick--but if she passes over a stick while working under a lot of pressure, she will pick it up).

 

J.

Hmmm...maybe I put Kat or Twist on the sheep and then pull out the hose and see which desire is stronger.... Nah, they might embarrass me!

[SoloRiver]

For a while East Coast agility people were going to the cattleherding lines from farther West, (smooth prick-eared dogs for the most part)due to certain glitzy web advertising. [...] ...many of them have quite sketchy (dominant, agressive, or reactive) temperaments. Maybe part of what makes them so good at herding (gripping) cattle is their dominant, "not taking no for an answer" attitude.

 

I think the problem is these particular breeders more than the fact that they are from "cattledog lines." If you look at some of these websites (I think you are probaby talking mostly about one kennel that pumps out boatloads of puppies, advertises heavily, maintains its own email list for puppy buyers that has hundreds of subscribers, produces a lot of red dogs... am I right?) you see that they claim they have real working, cattle herding dogs. And yet there is nothing there about working accomplishments, no trial wins, the owner/"handler" is not listed in any trial results, is not a member of USBCHA. What's more, this particular person would have to own about 500,000 cattle to be able to work as many dogs as s/he has enough to know if any of them were worth a damn.

 

One of the problems I see a lot with sport buyers, who mean well and actually do want to buy a working bred dog, is that they don't know the difference between random bred, "working lines," and dogs who are actually bred to work. Three very different categories.

 

You see the first regarding many different "split" breeds, including Border Collies, Labs, and Goldens for example. People who are coming from the kennel club side tend to call anything that is not bred for show a "field" dog or "field lines." They will look at a weedy Golden and comment that the dog "looks fieldy." If they look at a Border Collie pedigree and don't see any conformation champions in it or only see one-syllable names they don't recognize (Cap, Bob, Joe) they assume the dog is a working bred dog. The dog could easily be a backyard bred or mill bred dog.

 

Likewise, the use of the term "working lines." "Working lines" might mean some actual working ancestors in the pedigree, but it isn't the same as a dog that was really bred to work. Solo comes from some very good working lines, but it is obvious that his breeder was not breeding for working dogs. He was running a mill and breeding to sell puppies to anyone who had the cash. (I recently got some information about and photos of the farm Solo came from, as well as his parents, who are still being bred, over and over again I might add, and I was depressed for days.) "Working lines" is a lot like "champion bloodlines," a descriptor often used for pet store puppies because there is maybe one champion five generations back in the pedigree. (Skeeter's pedigree looks like this -- he is from a mill in Missouri.) It doesn't mean a lot when it comes to actually predicting the qualities of the dog.

 

I have a friend -- a very smart friend, who breeds field Cockers (she is a glutton for punishment) and has a rescued Border Collie. Her Border Collie is from nothing breeding -- random farm dogs of no repute and pet/backyard bred dogs. She refers to this dog as "working lines" and uses her as an example of how "working breeders" don't care about the soundness of their dogs, because this dog is an orthopedic nightmare. You would think she would know better, but...

 

So when someone wants to discuss pedigrees and tells me his/her dog is from "working lines" I usually ask what the dog's specific breeding is, because that's the only way to get the real information on the dog's background. More often than not, "working lines" means "came from a farm," whether this was a farm that actually used the dogs they bred for stock work or not.

 

Very depressing.

[BigD]

Would a working farmer, in need of a working dog, go to an Agility trial to find a pup? No.

 

So how can you expect the agility folk to get off their backsides to actually do work to find a working bred pup that just might go to a sport home? Especially since they are surrounded by folks that are breeding their proven dogs (in agility that is)?

 

It's a difficult situation. As I look towards the future, my options are LIMITED. No working bred dogs in Hawaii. Only some poor quality agility dogs available. Rarely a rescue (thank god).

 

Not knowing myself - how hard would it be for someone in LA to actually find a working bred pup for a serious agility home? These are folks that are looking at the internet for dogs or their local trials.

 

What about 3 years from now when I'm looking to bring in another dog into my home? Do I pay someone $800 for a so-so quality dog from mostly conformation stock? Or do I call up one of you lovely folks and beg for a stock dog??? And think of all those folks that know only agility! They will go to where it's easier to get a "proven" dog that they know.

 

If I was going to move to the mainland and get into sheed dog trialing, you bet you bottom that I'd want to work with a dog that is from proven lines. So, the agility thing is not much different. And even if we educate the masses, there will still be the "crap-shoot" sort of con to the whole thing.

 

Denise

[zenotri]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

Hey, I like certain colors. I even think merle is pretty but I'd never have one unless it was a rescue, since I have yet to see the merle dog that wasn't bred primarily for color (I am of the belief that it is NEVER the case that the best working stud available is a merle -- they are simply too rare, it's statistically implausible).

As someone who owns a merle, and intends to do agility, it's kind of hard not to get defensive about this. Sounds like you are saying that a merle dogs should not be bred...regardless of their herding ability. Hopefully you are willing to acknowledge that even though you have yet to see one...statistically they can & do exist? Or should they just be removed from the BC gene pool alltogether? If you have an outstanding merle bitch and you breed it, you will get merle! That doesn't necessarily mean you're breeding for colour, does it?

 

I have no problem with most of the arguments in this discussion & firmly agree with most of them.

Breeding for colour is a huge problem in Australia as well and people are going out of their way to produce certain colours to the detriment of the breed. Breeding for sports, likewise is producing dogs who are over the top and almost impossible to live with. Agility people here are starting to go to working breeders to find their next dog, but for most they have no exposure to them and look to what they are familiar with.

 

My merle dog is the dog of my dreams. I bought her b/c her family epitomises what I believe a BC should be. I had no preconceived ideas about merles, having never seen one before. I don't know or much care what colour my next dog will be, but I know it will be from similar lines.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

So how can you expect the agility folk to get off their backsides to actually do work to find a working bred pup that just might go to a sport home?

Here's my difficulty here - and I know I'm Pollyanna living a dreamworld with this statement - but isn't agility - and ANY dog sport - supposed to be something that is all about the dog? Saying, I need a certain kind of dog so I can reach a certain level in agility seems to me to change the focus where the dog is a tool to reach that goal. That's where you get people who go through dogs like toilet paper rolls, pay for $1500 custom-bred puppies, and eventually get into breeding for sports themselves.

 

I feel like, if someone doesn't care enough about the working background of the breed to put some effort into finding an appropriately bred pup, does that person need a Border collie? I know it's difficult in an isolated place like Hawaii, but that would be a bit like me deciding that the only dog that would work for me would be a perro d'agua or a New Zealand heading dog. I'm going to have to get right into the culture to find quality breeders and I may have to spend some time and money to locate good dogs.

 

I know people who compete at the highest levels because they like training THAT kind of dog. That's terrific. I see these people's attitude as being significantly different from those who see their dogs as sports equipment. They are dedicated to their dogs no matter what crops up and more conscientious about where the dogs come from.

 

Those people offer great homes for high-drive dogs that need them. After all, there just aren't that many great working homes these days - though in part that's the fault of the BC culture itself. But if I were selling a pup, I would be asking, do you want a pup from me because you respect the thought that went into producing these potential working dogs, or because they are related to some sport champion?

 

BOTH responses TOGETHER are fine in my book, but hearing a respect for the working backround of this breed makes me feel more like the person in question is committed to viewing my pup as a partner rather than a means to an end.

[border_collie_crazy]

I cant speak for agility breeding, but for flyball the idea is to win, and the sport bred dogs are almost always faster then the working bred. I have one of each, both compete in Flyball, Misty is working bred, and while she is extremly fast and agile working stock, its does not translate into super speedy on the flyball coarse, her speed is only average border collie speed. Happy was bred for flyball, and she is WAY above average, she runs mid 3 second times. a lot of people just play for fun and they dont care about speed but when I club is hoping to smash records they want a dog that is from proven flyball lines, and half the time this is often a mix with just some BC or jack in it. I think of it this way, if a shepherd wants a good herding dog they are going to go to a breeder with strong working BCs. if a conformation person wants a show dog they are going to go to a breeder with quality winning show dogs. well if a very serious flyball person wants a good flyball dog they are not going to take a shot in the dark, they are going to find a breeder with top flyball dogs. to some people its just a fun sport but to others its very serious and they treat it as such.

 

personally I prefere that for BCs they be proven herding dogs as well, not JUST flyball dogs, I eneded up with a fluke as Happys dam is from working lines but her sire is completly dense and hasent a lick of herding instinct. oddly enugh Happy is awsome on sheep and in flyball lol

[laurie etc]

I'm bumping this thought back up - it got lost in the shuffle - what do you think?

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by laurie etc:

Originally posted by rtphokie:

I do try to educate, I show them my dogs and talk about local herding lines and urge them to go out to visit the dogs and see their temperments firsthand.... You just have to do your research.

I do some of my best thinking while I'm doing menial tasks -I've been outside repainting farmgates today...here's my brainstorm to get the ball rolling... (disclaimer- I also could be high from paint fumes and heat...)

 

What if - the USBCHA in conjunction with the ABCA and the local/regional organizations came up with a scheme to offset the glitzy website "pushers". What if $.50 from every herding trial entry fee collected went to education by way of website information (or other publications), whether on the USBCHA web, ABCA's web, or local Association webs. What if there was a contact person available for each region, who could let people know if "approved breeders" in each region,had a litter expected, and their contact information. There would also be links for local rescue organizations, and their contact numbers. This "breeder list" would be voluntary on the part of the breeders, and these breeders would have to be current local association members, or USBCHA members in good standing, and would have to provide pedigrees, health information and sign an "ethical breeder" statement in conjunction with the mission of the ABCA. There would be a small charge for litter listings, which again would go back to educational/health research funding. Breeders could state upfront if they were willing to consider "non-herding" homes.

(When I was involved with Golden Retrievers, my local club did this, and I always felt secure referring people to the "list", since I knew that they had to be responsible, ethical breeders to participate.)

 

comments?