I could use some help

[My frisbee arm hurts]

I've Owned (in pairs) 4 Aussies and a BC-Golden Mix over the last 35years, all females.  We live on a pretty small lot in a suburban environment.  Not the greatest place for an active dogs, but we are on a large lake, lots of swimming, and 4 of 5 have been really excellent frisbee-dogs. The one who "just won't" is our current Aussie.  She is a rescue, small, great markings, cute as hell; but basically a "Cat". 

We got the BC (Dewey) as dog #6 to roll with " The-Cat" 2 years ago.  Dewey is a male Short Coated Border Collie.  Picked him up from the perfect back yard breeder.; the owner was doing just one litter for the family female sooth BC and sire was a Rec.- league (?) champ herder (also a short coat).

Dewey has a good Gig; 

A 4-5mile run with my daughter in the morning.  Most days a walk with my wife her friend+her dog in a park behind our house;   Athletic field time with me every afternoon for frisbees, mostly Aerobees  to get some longer sprint-n-catches in;   Evenings I smoke a cigar and throw a floating frisbee or glow ball into the lake for him, (less in the deep winter).  This and a constant pestering of all house hold members/visitors to throw his soft indoor frisbees +++ more petting from the wife and daughters than Dewey wants or requires.  Beyond this, he follows me everywhere (daughters nicknamed him "Little-man"). 

Here's my problem:

Over the last 4-6 months when I take Dewey out to athletic field for his principle exercise/work, after 10-15 catches he starts the following behavior.  Dewey runs out after the frisbee/Aerobee to catch it, but about 10yards out he drops to his stomach and stares at the frisbee/Aerobee that has now landed ahead of him.  We wait--- I say "go-get-it"-----we wait some more---- finally he gets up and moves slowly in a stalk toward the frisbee about 5yrds before he drops, and repeats the process.  I have also noted that when I get frustrated and just walk out to pick the frisbee myself up he moves with me but usually moves outward on my left, and lunging to pick up the frisbee just before I get to it.

I am no herding expert, but from what I have observed this is pretty classic BC herding.  Its an annoyance to me; it can take him 10 mins to bring back an Aero-bee.  Worse, I am feeling like I'm not giving Dewey enough by way of work that challenges his thinking.  For all of my Aussies, exercise+ family time/affection was enough; Dewey wants challenging work and really likes "knowing what to do".  

Can anybody help with this?  Directions to any resource that would give me instuction on acitivities that simulate herding would be GREAT.  Failing that games he and I can do that would challenge his problem solving.  I'd also be willing to take him out for a "herding fix" any where in the  Washington- King Co. area.

Also, any guidance on how you teach a BC to close distance with a herd animal would also be helpful---------  10mins is a long time to wait for a frisbee to come back.

Thank you for any help---------- these BC's are a unique Exp.

 

 

[urge to herd]

19 hours ago, My frisbee arm hurts said:

I've Owned (in pairs) 4 Aussies and a BC-Golden Mix over the last 35years, all females.  We live on a pretty small lot in a suburban environment.  Not the greatest place for an active dogs, but we are on a large lake, lots of swimming, and 4 of 5 have been really excellent frisbee-dogs. The one who "just won't" is our current Aussie.  She is a rescue, small, great markings, cute as hell; but basically a "Cat". 

We got the BC (Dewey) as dog #6 to roll with " The-Cat" 2 years ago.  Dewey is a male Short Coated Border Collie.  Picked him up from the perfect back yard breeder.; the owner was doing just one litter for the family female sooth BC and sire was a Rec.- league (?) champ herder (also a short coat).

Dewey has a good Gig; 

A 4-5mile run with my daughter in the morning.  Most days a walk with my wife her friend+her dog in a park behind our house;   Athletic field time with me every afternoon for frisbees, mostly Aerobees  to get some longer sprint-n-catches in;   Evenings I smoke a cigar and throw a floating frisbee or glow ball into the lake for him, (less in the deep winter).  This and a constant pestering of all house hold members/visitors to throw his soft indoor frisbees +++ more petting from the wife and daughters than Dewey wants or requires.  Beyond this, he follows me everywhere (daughters nicknamed him "Little-man"). 

Here's my problem:

Over the last 4-6 months when I take Dewey out to athletic field for his principle exercise/work, after 10-15 catches he starts the following behavior.  Dewey runs out after the frisbee/Aerobee to catch it, but about 10yards out he drops to his stomach and stares at the frisbee/Aerobee that has now landed ahead of him.  We wait--- I say "go-get-it"-----we wait some more---- finally he gets up and moves slowly in a stalk toward the frisbee about 5yrds before he drops, and repeats the process.  I have also noted that when I get frustrated and just walk out to pick the frisbee myself up he moves with me but usually moves outward on my left, and lunging to pick up the frisbee just before I get to it.

I am no herding expert, but from what I have observed this is pretty classic BC herding.  Its an annoyance to me; it can take him 10 mins to bring back an Aero-bee.  Worse, I am feeling like I'm not giving Dewey enough by way of work that challenges his thinking.  For all of my Aussies, exercise+ family time/affection was enough; Dewey wants challenging work and really likes "knowing what to do".  

Can anybody help with this?  Directions to any resource that would give me instuction on acitivities that simulate herding would be GREAT.  Failing that games he and I can do that would challenge his problem solving.  I'd also be willing to take him out for a "herding fix" any where in the  Washington- King Co. area.

Also, any guidance on how you teach a BC to close distance with a herd animal would also be helpful---------  10mins is a long time to wait for a frisbee to come back.

Thank you for any help---------- these BC's are a unique Exp.

 

 

Sorry that you're having issues with your dog. I've no experience in training working dogs, but I can tell you that a dog chasing a frisbee is not considered 'herding'.

Short explanation: Sheep or cattle are living things. They're huge in contrast to a dog, they don't run in straight lines for the most part, they can and will turn and charge and even injure a working dog, and they are not grabbed in the mouth and brought back to the owner. Nothing 'simulates' herding.

Dogs playing fetch is simpler. Human throws item, dog goes after item, seizes it and takes it back to human. 

Some ideas for re-shaping your frisbee fun with your boy. Unfortunately you've 'installed' some poor manners in this dog. I've been there. Pick one thing to re-shape and work on that exclusively. If you want to work on frisbee retrieving you might start by throwing the frisbee a short distance, letting the dog go after it, and then  'retrieve' your dog Every Single Time he doesn't do it on his own. Leash him up and take him home. Put away the frisbee so that he can't see it. Ignore the dog for a few minutes. Then when YOU want to, pet him, play with him, etc. This process will take a while. If you and other family members are not consistent, it won't work.

I understand that this is a much different approach then you've been using or even thinking of. Since what you've been doing isn't working, give it a try.

Trust me on this ~ I had 3 border collies at one time. I had to learn (and re-learn a few times) how to fix things with them. If you want more ways to interact with him get a book on trick training and teach him silly things to do. Brush up on his obedience skills. What most border collies crave is interaction with their human(s). He's getting plenty of physical exercise with your daughter. Another thing to be aware of is possible injury. Going through crate rest with an injured bc is no fun. Been through that, too, more than once. Trick training saved everyone's  sanity, it gave the dog(s) and the human something to do for those days & weeks of necessary crate rest.

My current bc is 13 and has a bum knee. No running for him. So he's learning tricks and losing some of his shyness around strangers.

Hope this is helpful, do let us know how it goes with your boy.

Ruth & Gibbs

ETA ~ Dewey might be bored with just going after the frisbee. Do some other things with him. See if there are Nose Work for Dogs, also called 'Scent Work' classes in your area. A lot of dogs love it, it's physically much easier, you can do it anywhere, and it works that canine brain in a way that running after a frisbee does not.

[urge to herd]

PS ~ (sorry, this is the last time). You'll likely get more suggestions if you repost in Health section lower down. This section is aimed at working dogs.

R & G

Oh, Lordy! Look at the Training/Trialing section not the Health section. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by urge to herd
I keep making mistakes!