Braden Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 *I originally posted this in the stockdog expert section but didn’t realized it didn’t allow regular members to respond so I’m posting it here as well. Hello, I’m not 100% sure if I am writing in the correct topic area so my apologies ahead of time if I am not. I recently started herding lessons with Judith Kelly at Asher Dell Farm. I’ve had about 4-5 lessons so far and have really enjoyed it. She has been building it up slowly which I appreciate. We noticed lately that Braden (my border collie) is interested in sheep and engages with them but stops himself after a few seconds everytime. When he does this, he glances at me almost to check if it was ok to keep going which we want him to do, but it takes coaxing to get him confident to engage with the sheep again. We also just realized he is much more confident when I am holding the line then when I drop it. In the waiting pen he is also completely fixated on the sheep so I know he has interest. She mentioned how obedient he is and how he looks at me for approval and that may be holding him back, but now I feel like I may have hurt his potential to herd. Any thoughts on why he is apprehensive on continuing engagement with the sheep ? Do you have any tips on overcoming this? Judith seems confident that he will be good and said he just needs more exposure so he gets more comfortable but I want to make sure I’m not doing anything to prevent that and I also want to check if I could do anything to help him overcome it. Thanks for any advice! Additional information: He is 1.5 years old and comes from a herding line. We’ve only been going to lessons for the past month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 What do you mean "building up slowly"? Is there any possible chance of you looking elsewhere for lessons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted October 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 @Journey I meant she didn’t just throw us in with sheep. We practiced in a pen without sheep, then a small pen with about 3 sheep, then a larger pen with about 5-6 sheep. We started with a line and then letting the line go. There were other things we did as well but that was the gist of the progression. She gives feedback as well and is open to questions throughout. I also did a herding instinct test with a different trainer but ended up going with this one because she is only 30 minutes away and I had heard good things about her experience. All other trainers are close to an hour away or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 Convenience doesn't equate to quality. What did the pen work with no sheep mean to accomplish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 To Braden's owner, You wrote, "We practiced in a pen without sheep" What do you do when practicing without sheep? nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted October 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 @NCStarkey This was just the first day, but we practiced "Walk", "lie down", "walk", "lie down", "here", etc. to ensure the dog had basic obedience before joining the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 Thanks for the explanation about practicing without the sheep, and it could be that practicing and using the basic commands are adversely affecting your dog. Usually, when beginning dogs are introduced to sheep, the dog is allowed to freely interact with the sheep without our commands. We want awaken the instinct in young dogs, not suppress it. Of course, we want to be able to call the dog off, but in the beginning, there are no other commands given. Journey has suggested finding another instructor, and that may be a good idea for you and Braden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted October 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 @NCStarkeythanks for the follow up and insight! Always appreciate the feedback on this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 12, 2021 Report Share Posted October 12, 2021 Since Braden is 1.5 years old, what other training have you done with him? And how much? If you have done too much training requiring a lot of focus on you, which is then rewarded, Braden may be defaulting to that type of interaction with you -- checking in with you a lot for reinforcement that he has done the correct behavior. Take this with a grain of salt because I am not an expert in training for herding (but have done a little and one dog is a little like Braden) -- you have to try to break the habit of him looking to you for approval. Since it sounds like he will not go in and attack the sheep, let him walk around the sheep with you, but if he looks to you, don't say anything. Don't encourage. When you encourage, you are strengthening the 'looking for approval' habit. Try to break the habit of him looking to you by not responding. Just keep walking around the sheep and see what he does. He must learn to focus on the sheep and think for himself. Just my 2 cents - for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted October 13, 2021 Report Share Posted October 13, 2021 When my dogs have been on sheep the shepherd has handled them, especially when they were really starting to get a feel for sheep. Both my dogs are agility dogs and are used to watching my body and arms for signals, with the shepherd they focused on the sheep and the commands. Once they had a decent understanding of what was happening I started to be able to work them, new skills he would start them always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted October 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 @gcv-borderthanks for your input! This sounds exactly like what’s happening with Braden. We do quite a bit of training (obedience and tricks). So it seems like the main issue is him looking for me for approval like you described. I’ll try out your tips and see how it goes. Thanks again! @alligandegood point! I’ll see if we can try this as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted October 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 Update! Went to another lesson today, and we made significant progress. Looks like he is building confidence and we even moved to the bigger area to move sheep. Honestly the progress we made today was exponential and has made me hopeful that I can trial him. He wasn’t “all or nothing” like before (i.e. either timid or all out rushing the sheep) but rather slowly approached the sheep, crouched, made eye contact, etc. I was beyond ecstatic to see it “click”. It looks like I just needed to be patient and trust my trainer and the process. I’ll share any further progress I make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 What a joy! Glad Braden's light bulb is coming on; we'll look forward to more pupdates! Enjoy! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braden Posted January 25, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2022 Hello! I thought I would post an update and also ask for some more advice . Braden is starting to get it and listening to commands. Of course I trust my trainer, she is great and patient and always looking for new ways to bring out the best in him, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to check other people's experience. So my question... when correcting for a command with the herding stick, he tends to take it too personally, if that makes sense, and will eventually stop working because he seems to be turned off by it. For example, if we say "come" and he wants to go the opposite direction we use the stick strike the ground to let him know he must go the correct way. I don't do it harshly and we combine it with praise when he does go the correct way, but after a few times, he eventually shuts down a bit. He is not the timid kind, but is very oriented towards me and constantly looks to me for approval (I mentioned this earlier and have been working on it). Any tips on how to continue building on training, correcting behavior, etc. while not turning him off? It took a while to get him to where we are now so I don't want to hurt the progress we've made. I should add that we keep the sessions short with breaks for him to observe and also just to rest. Maybe I'm just rushing it a bit? This is the first dog I've taken herding lessons with so I'm not familiar with the process like how long certain behaviors take, the learning curve, etc. I appreciate your patience with my questions. I look forward to your thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawgirl Posted January 26, 2022 Report Share Posted January 26, 2022 I am by no means an expert, but with a more sensitive dog, I would think that you need to modify your actions to the minimum required to get the result that you want. If banging on the ground is too harsh, then use pressure other ways. I am not at all clear what that may be, but may just be extending the stick to block the direction you don't want him to go. This will probably take a bit of experimentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted January 27, 2022 Report Share Posted January 27, 2022 Yes, you need to use the least amount of pressure that will get the response you desire, and immediately release the pressure. Personally, I would avoid too much verbal praise, Braden should see that being allowed to work the sheep without any pressure is the reward. It also helps him focus on his work and not on you. As soon as you see him start to lose interest, stop the work and give him a break. In your example above, try working without a stick - just step over a bit to block his wrong direction, or maybe extend your arm. See if that makes a difference. Good luck and keep us posted! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 16, 2022 Report Share Posted April 16, 2022 You are getting a lot of terrific advice from everyone who has already replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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