Couple of months later, plenty of questions!

[JayJay]

Hello Everyone,

We are back with a big issue and tons of other questions and hope you can help us out again

She is now almost 6 months old, and everything is going well. She started training in a very chill dog school, only positive reinforcement. We love it.

Our first question/big problem, that we really need to resolve:  Couple of weeks ago we had our first major incident, that has tarnished our joyful walks. Those walks are daily (sometime twice) through the field, with no leash. About 3km each time.

After a few weeks of those walks, she started to run further and further away to try to chase birds. On that day, she decided she would not come back when I called her, and followed different birds in succession, until I could not see her anymore. I tried to continue our walk and call her, but after 10 minutes of her not showing, I panicked and called my wife. While she was getting ready, I continued calling and going through the fields. After 10 minutes, my wife called, telling me the dog was in front of the door, at our house. Since then, I do not let her of the leash anymore which sucks, for everyone.

The thing is, she listens almost all the time*. If i call her (on the long leash) she will come back, if I ask her to wait, she wait, etc. We try once in a while to do the walk again without a leash. She will listen, up until the big fields with the birds, and there, again, she will stop listening to anything. Candy call, squeekie toys, us calling her. Only the birds matter.

Our fear is of course that she gets killed by a driver when leaving the fields, or get lost and something bad happen to her, so, we need to fix this. Any suggestions, ideas, magic solution?

 

Now, on more lighthearted questions :)

- Up until now, based on the vet's advice, we fed her 3 times a day. She gets 10 minutes to eat and then we remove the bowl. It seems to be pretty stressful for her. We tried leaving the bowl, and it seems to be more enjoyable for her. She can come and eat at her pace when she wants. Is leaving the bowl and refill 3 times a day, a good way to do it? Of course, we do not give more than her daily allowance.

 

- She LOVES human food, of course. After our meals, we give her some meat pieces we cut and make sure there are no bones/bad spices when we eat meat once in a while, etc. But of course, this creates a habit, where she knows she MIGHT get some good stuff from us, and she will come and beg when we are in the kitchen, even not eating. This does not happen too often, but we do not want a bad habit out of it. And we would like to continue to give her those little treats. How can we handle this better please?

 

-With the nice weather finally back in our country, she has started spending a lot of time in the garden. Sadly, she also started DIGGING in our garden. What should we do to make her understand it is not ok? As of course we only see it after the facts. I started filling one of the holes with my feet, and she came and barked at me (she almost never barks).

 

- *At the dog school, the excitement of the 3 other dogs is so big, that she stops listening. I am usually the last one to get my dog back at the "get your dog back without running after it" exercise I tried better candies (real meat), she just doesn't care. Playing with the other dogs is more important. I do believe this is linked with the birds issue, where SHE decides when she listens or not. Any advice/suggestions please?

 

- She is 6mnths old now, loves to play, but i am totally out of ideas on what to play/train her in the garden. Any suggestions/videos/books with games/exercises for her for this age please?

 

Not-so-puppy-anymore tax attached

 

Warm regards to everyone

 

[gcv-border]

Beautiful little girl. She is doing fine.

Right now, she is in her TEENAGE years. Each dog is different, but this phase usually hits around 5, 6 or 7 months. Very common when pups seem to be very distracted, lose some of their training and generally want to blow you off because they are REALLY beginning to notice the outside world. i.e. you are no longer all important. LOL.  Generally, you keep working on foundation training (you may have to go back to more basic learning just because they are testing the boundaries and you want them to have as much success as possible.)  Just grit your teeth, stay positive, keep up the basic training on the long line to prevent bad behavior, and she will come out the other side (one or two months).

Yes, every once in a while, you can test her off-long-line behavior to see how she responds, but if she doesn't come (do it in a low distraction environment to give her a fair chance. Don't set her up to fail.), then no second-chances. She goes back on the long line for another week. Remember, teenager.

Obviously, the other dogs at training class are too distracting right now. The instructors should be allowing you to work closer so she can be more successful. Talk to them.

Eating - no free feeding.

Human food - If you want to save bits, save them to put on HER kibble at HER mealtimes.  If she is crowding you at the table, teach her a command (mat, place, bed) where she goes to a special little rug, or dog bed, (one you have used for training) while you eat. Obviously, behavior will take a long time to teach and proof for duration, but might as well get started. This is also a good command to have if you want to get her out of the way in the kitchen.

Digging - not much experience here, but I have heard that some people will set up a special section in their yard similar to a child's sandbox. Then they will bury toys in there and actually encourage the dog to dig there, and only there. The dog gets reinforced when they find a toy. Others may have better suggestions.

Good Luck.

[JayJay]

18 minutes ago, gcv-border said:

(...)

Thank you for your reply. A lot of things you said are reinforcing what we already tough. We will see when we have more replies, if everyone thinks the same

For the teenager "years", we heard it will until she was 1,5/2 years old... That would be really long

 

 

 

[gcv-border]

IME, IF you are consistent in your training, they will turn the corner in a couple of months. I think the mistake some people make is to think that the dog is being stubborn or hard-headed and continue to train as if they should be continuing on an upwardly linear training journey. The dog gets frustrated and your relationship can suffer.  Relax, go back to some basic skills, make the dog successful and happy. It is only a short time in the scheme of things.

They are STILL a 'puppy' after the teenage years and need the appropriate training. I would consider the 1.5-2 year old benchmark about when they calm down and become adults.

[D'Elle]

I second everything GVC-border says with regard to the training. I would add one thing. If it were my dog, and if she did not come when I tested her (maybe once a month )  off leash, I would end all the fun right then and take her straight home again. On leash of course. And make sure you go and get her. don't continue to call her if she is not coming. That only teaches her that it's OK to ignore you.

Patience! At six months, this is normal behavior. And you are on track with your training.  The teenage period may last until she is 1.5 or 2. but just continue with the training, persistently and 100% consistently and she will learn what she needs to do. Doesn't really matter how long it takes.

If she is digging in a certain area, fence off that area. If it is all over, I suggest you don't let her go outside alone, or else watch from a window all the time she is out. If she starts digging, bring her inside and pop her into her crate. The message is: you dig, all the fun stops. Not having had a digger, I don't know much about it but this is what I would try.

She sure is a cutie! ♥ I really love it when they have that little spot on the top of the head.

[JayJay]

1 minute ago, D'Elle said:

(...) If it were my dog, and if she did not come when I tested her (maybe once a month )  off leash, I would end all the fun right then and take her straight home again. On leash of course. And make sure you go and get her. don't continue to call her if she is not coming. That only teaches her that it's OK to ignore you.

(...)

Hi D'Elle,

Thank you for your feedback.

On that point, the issue is, uhm, have you tried running AFTER a running BC? Once she is couple of meters away, catching her is imposible, thats when it gets complicated.

At that point, trying to catch her is a game for her, she will run away, and once you manage to grab her, putting a leash on her, does not seem to convene any message. She had her fun, she knows now is the time to go home anyway. I am out of ideas on what to do to make her understand we are really not happy with her going that far away. Since we never punish her (we use crate time to calm down/make her think), we do not know what to do.

Also, from what I understood, they do not understand consequences if they are not imediate. When she runs to far away, and we finally manage to get her, and put a leash on her, it does not stop her from going way to far away the next time. Even if its 5 minutes later.

 

 

[urge to herd]

What's your girl's name?

She's not trained to come when called. That means she doesn't get to go off leash.

Step One: So practice, practice, practice at home. If you can find an enclosed space without other dogs in it, (your own yard, a dog friendly neighbor's yard, etc) you can let her go explore WITH her leash on. Call her. If she doesn't return, walk her down. You keep walking after her, even if she darts away, until you can stand on the leash. That's why you need the smaller, enclosed space. This will take a while to take effect, as right now she's trained to ignore your command.

Use a different word than whatever you've been using. Use 'here' instead of come. Or 'now'. Or 'apple'. Anything but 'come' or whatever you've been using. You've likely 'poisoned' the cue word you've been using.

It's all important, but this next part is Very Important. Start giving her amazing treats when she comes on command. Treats she gets at no other time except when she responds quickly to your command. Throw a party ~ tell her what a great and wonderful dog she is for obeying. P.S. Some dogs like a certain toy, like a tug toy, or a ball to fetch back to you. If that's your girl, then use that toy. Until you've got her trained the Awesome Toy only comes out when you're working on the recall command.

When she's rock solid at the recall in low stimuli conditions, (no other dogs present, etc) gradually add in one distraction at a time, at a distance. For example, you could ask a friend with a dog to help you. Friend/dog are at a good distance, dog is on leash. You call your dog, (who is trailing a leash). If she comes to you, JACKPOT ~ which means treats rain down on her. You gradually decrease the distance between friend with dog and yourself/your dog.

It will not ruin your girl to take a 'boot camp' approach to training a recall. It might take a while. In my experience it can significantly improve your bond with your girl. You MUST be CONSISTENT, or you'll confuse her and she'll go back to her ignoring your commands.

Good luck, I know how it seems daunting, but it works like gangbusters.

Ruth and Gibbs

[JayJay]

6 minutes ago, urge to herd said:

(...)

Thank you for your reply.

Her name is Minnie, like Minnie Mouse, because of her colors.

 

Do you have any advice, during training, on how to handle it when she ignores the command? I know we are not supposed to repeat ourselves, we do our best not to. But how are we supposed to do, when we give the order, and she does nothing (even when she knows it)? Some people said we had to be harsher to make her understand we are the boss, but, we have never been like that with her. It feels... Wrong. Maybe it is our mistake?

I did not mention it in this post, but she is our first dog/animal.

[urge to herd]

You're very welcome. Right now, you're focusing on just the recall. When she does not respond to your cue, you use the leash to tug her gently to you. When she gets to you, praise, maybe give her a scratch where she enjoys it, (my guy loves his rear end scratched). Repeat. Save the awesome treats for when she responds to the cue. But ALWAYS acknowledge in some way that she did what you cued her to do, just with a little help. The acknowledgement also needs to be something that's rewarding to her. A simple 'good dog' won't do that, not yet.

She does not understand what you want from her. Being harsher, (yelling, yanking on her lead, etc) will NOT help her understand. People who tell you to be harder on her do not understand either. 

Keep at it. You're learning to communicate with a different species, and so is she. If it's not working for her to be in a class with other dogs right now, quit the class. You're not giving up, you're switching approaches. 

Just re-read your initial post. It doesn't 'suck' for her to be on leash. It would definitely suck if she got injured/lost while being off leash because she doesn't know to come when called. 

I know this is a lot to take in.  The dog I had before I got my first bc was about 12 or so when she passed. I was used to a dog who basically slept all day, went for a few walks and hung out in the yard by herself quite happily. I was shocked at the reality of a 2 yr old dog who wanted to DO STUFF ALL THE TIME WITH HER HUMAN. That's an exaggeration, but that's what it felt like until I adjusted.

To reinforce ~ Minnie needs time and consistency with her humans WAAAAY more than she needs fun and giggles with dog friends. Many b collies are not all that fond of other dogs. Take things one at a time, if she's not getting it break it into smaller parts. Teach what she can learn, then weave it together.

PS forgot this bit ~ get a long line, (50' long leash) to work with her on recall. It takes a bit of learning on the human's part to get comfortable with reeling the dog in gently, or giving a gentle tug to get the dog's attention. You can google it to find one in your area. Pet stores usually have them or can order them.

R & G

 

[JayJay]

3 minutes ago, urge to herd said:

(...)

 

I am not sure I was clear on a couple of points, when reading your answer:

- she knows what "Minnie, come" means she does it all the time, except when she prefers playing with other dogs, or chasing birds. otherwise, "come" will make her come imediatly. That is also the reason she was alowed to be without a leash in the first place. because she would stop when asked, come back when asked, etc.

she knows sit, lay down, park(sends her to her place), wait, stand, slower, "uh-oh", leave it, no,  paw (gives paw), other paw (gives other paw), etc

She knows all of those, and will do them gladly, if she wants to (= she is not distracted, there is nothing more intreesting than us, like birds she will never be able to catch)

I, of course, could be wrong, but what you explain is how to relearn words to her, she allready knows perfectly well? The issue seems to be about consistency on when to following (all of) those orders?

 

 

 

 

[urge to herd]

18 minutes ago, JayJay said:

"She knows all of those, and will do them gladly, if she wants to (= she is not distracted, there is nothing more intreesting than us, like birds she will never be able to catch)"

Yes, it is consistency that she lacks and that is a training issue. 

Each command/cue is to be obeyed No Matter What Else Is Happening. That's the part she's not been trained to do yet. Therefore she's not fully trained. She doesn't know that you demand that of her. You have to tell her that 'come' means right now ALL THE TIME, not just when there's nothing else going on. The point of taking her different places with different distractions is to teach her that consistency.

IMO a dog is not fully trained until that consistency is in place.  Just like a human is not fully trained to drive an automobile until they know how to drive in varying conditions ~ heavy traffic/no traffic/rainstorm/windstorm/daylight/nighttime.

This is why you keep her on leash so that you can help her learn that 'Come' ALWAYS means Come to the Human NOW. And just like teaching a human to drive, you start off with easy stuff in safe areas, then gradually increase difficulty and distraction. Don't add distance and increase distractions at the same time, it can be confusing for her.

And ~ (it seems like there's always an 'and') when you have to 'reel her in' tell her 'good dog,' maybe add a pat on the head. Save the awesome treats for when she responds to the cue. She'll get the message.

If you don't already know it, you guys jumped into the deep end of the 'dog training pool' when you got a b. collie. I've got my 4th right now and wouldn't have any other breed.

Minnie is adorable, by the way.

R&G

 

[JayJay]

Thank you.

Yes, at our first vet visit, she told us it was "not a good idea" as a first dog to take a BC. But, my gf choose that her next dog would be a BC, 20 years ago...

We have a question. She is used to do those daily walks, but 3 times a week  its with 2 other dog friends. All 3 have no leash as she doesnt run after birds when the two other dogs are there.  Do we need to stop the walks with those other 2 friend-dogs? As using a leash with them will be a real issue (they play and roll and... you know).

 

[urge to herd]

Hmmm. I'd say cut those out for right now. The two of you need to be the Most Important Thing in her world right now. Until you've got a solid history of her responding to you when you call her, no walking with other dogs. Minnie will focus on them instead of her human because that's what she knows.

It's draconian, but making YOU TWO the center of her world will make everything else about your lives with Minnie much, much easier.

Are you able to leave her alone in her crate while both of you leave? That's also very, very important.

R & G

[gcv-border]

A lot of good suggestions here.

First: IMHO, your recall command has not been 'poisoned'. To me, the command is poisoned if the dog is consistently exposed to negative consequences when the command is used.  I don't read that in your responses, so I would say (as have others) that you just have to work on consistency in a distracting environment.

I agree with keeping her on a long line so if she blows you off when she has her 'freedom' (or she thinks she is free because she is 30 or 40 feet away), you can reel her back in. Just calmly reel her back in without saying anything (but I often will say my recall command a second time when I start reeling her back in to pair the command with the action). And I agree with giving her a low-level reinforcement (good girl, pat on the shoulder) when she gets to you.

And as has been mentioned, start with very, very low level distractions and GRADUALLY add. You will know if you have pushed the distraction level too high if she doesn't come when called a 2 times in a row. [Depending on the level of training and the environment, I do not expect 100% consistency from a puppy.) No lasting harm, just tell yourself that she wasn't ready for higher distractions and next time, you must do a better job of controlling distraction levels. Note: almost every mistake can be a learning experience for YOU. You should be observing what works and doesn't and using that information to plan the next training sessions.

DO NOT run after your dog ---- which is why owners should not be in too much of a hurry to let Fido off the leash too soon. If you are worried about her safety in ANY environment, keep her on a long line/leash. It is ALWAYS better to go home with your dog, than to have her run away.

And just curious, how have you been training your recall?

[JayJay]

@gcv-border

We started to leave her off leash after a week or so. Its our vet, who also has BC's, that told us to start as soon as possible of the leash.

Training for recall has always been: let her go her way, call her, and as soon as she is there, lots of cudle and a treat or two to congrat her.

The truth is, it worked so well, that we stoped the positive reinforcement after a few weeks, since she was coming back every time when we called her, we took it for granted.

We never tried to run after her, we see how fast she moves... But when we start moving off the path towards her, in those infamous fields, she will put more dinstance between us.

@urge to herd

We will see what we can do, as it is a bit rude to cut the owner out sudenly, as they were kind enough to join us in the first place.

[urge to herd]

40 minutes ago, JayJay said:

@gcv-border

@urge to herd

We will see what we can do, as it is a bit rude to cut the owner out sudenly, as they were kind enough to join us in the first place.

You could tell them that you've decided that you want Minnie to return to you reliably every single time, so you're putting a focus on her training right now. Say you'd love to re-join, if that's okay with them, once Minnie is reliable. Question, do the other dogs recall every single time their humans cue them? Or is it a looser sort of thing. The other owners might have different standards than you seem to want, and that's ok. 

R & G

[diane allen]

All good advice given so far.

One more thought:  Even though your "come" cue may not be poisoned, consider what it sounds like.  I have a ridiculous-sounding, high-pitched "pupper!" cue followed by the dogs' names (I have more than one).  There's just NO way to sound mad or frustrated or anything but really happy when I say it. I *only* use it when I need them to turn tail and come to me, right now.   It also takes the edge off if the dogs are approaching another person, especially one who may not be thrilled at being accosted by three rambunctious dogs (friendly, but still....).  Sounding mad at that point may scare the other person even more!  (I realize you're not addressing other people as such, but it applies nonetheless).  Of course, your mileage may vary....but consider sounding ridiculous!  :-)

diane
 

[JayJay]

5 minutes ago, diane allen said:

All good advice given so far.

One more thought:  Even though your "come" cue may not be poisoned, consider what it sounds like.  I have a ridiculous-sounding, high-pitched "pupper!" cue followed by the dogs' names (I have more than one).  There's just NO way to sound mad or frustrated or anything but really happy when I say it. I *only* use it when I need them to turn tail and come to me, right now.   It also takes the edge off if the dogs are approaching another person, especially one who may not be thrilled at being accosted by three rambunctious dogs (friendly, but still....).  Sounding mad at that point may scare the other person even more!  (I realize you're not addressing other people as such, but it applies nonetheless).  Of course, your mileage may vary....but consider sounding ridiculous!  :-)

diane
 

I do have one like that, where i call her with an old lady's high pitched voice (i am a dude). it works, if there are no birds

[gcv-border]

Recall is so important so please indulge me if I nerd out on it.

Even if your vet has BCs, it doesn't mean that she should generalize training advice. Each situation is unique. Do you have a farm/land that they can run around on without too much negative consequences. Maybe your vet does so she can be more lax (I know I am) when allowing the pups more freedom from the leash. If I lived in a suburban situation, I wouldn't allow my pup off-leash after a week or so. Does she have other dogs that have good recalls? Since my pup likes to follow the older dogs around, I use the older dogs to help train recall, because when I call them, the pup comes running too. (Oh, I forgot to say that I currently have a 5 month old pup. My 5th BC.) Just because I am still mad about it, about 20 years ago, I got some of the worst training advice ever from a vet who owned a BC. Long story.)

Anyway, I like to incorporate recall games into the training. Also, I pay attention to low-level and high-level reinforcers and appropriate times to use them. (And this is an entire separate converstion of many facets.) As already suggested, use low-level reinforcers (good girl, pat on shoulder, etc.) when you have to reel Minnie back towards you. Use high-level reinforcers (chicken, roast beef) when she returns immediately.

Games: to really ramp up the recall training, RUN AWAY. When you do that, it activates the dog's chase response. And start in a controlled situation - a fenced yard, with or without a long line. Also start closer and gradually work farther away. For example: start with Minnie near to you, throw a little treat about 5 feet away, she should go for it. Call her back to you and when she turns around to you, run away. Even if it is only a few steps before she catches up. When she does catch up, jackpot the heck out of it, and talk to her in the high voice about what a GOOD girl she is. Really ramp up the excitement. Scream and run like a demented chicken. Call her, let her see you and then run around the side of your house. And don't forget to jackpot and keep the energy up when she gets to you because it should be THE. BEST. THING. EVER.  Note: don't overdo it. Limit the fun to less than 3-5 minutes at this age. My rule is that a training session should end with the dog still begging to work with you.  It is better to train in multiple, short sessions than in one long session. The dog gets tired, then frustrated, then really begins to dislike training.

All reinforcers don't have to be treats. If she likes balls, use that as a reinforcer when she returns to you. Or a squeaky toy or a tug toy. A LOT of training now incorporates the use of tug toys to really ramp up the fun.

As she gets the idea of racing back to you, you can occasionally recall in a 'normal' fashion too. Hopefully, she will race back to you then too because you have built up a habit. Be a little unpredictable, mix it up and keep up the high energy. Don't be boring (Call dog, treat, rinse, repeat.)

Your high voice: do not be embarrassed to use a high voice because you are a dude. I have seen a lot of expert dog trainer dudes on training videos who always incorporate the baby voice, particularly when reinforcing and treating the dog. And these are Harley Davidson biker-looking dudes that train military and police dogs. Which would you prefer? A well-trained dog, even if you have to use a softer voice or one that doesn't listen and embarrasses you? 

[JayJay]

As we thought, we need to go back to basics Recall training. I hope we can make it fun again with your game suggestions

We are also trying to find a new leash that is longer than 8 meters. Cant find anything on amazon. We have one but its not a self recalling one(dont know how you call em), so, it is going to be messy in the fields with a huge leash on the ground

[gcv-border]

Good for you to go back to basics. Another game is 'monkey in the middle'. This game requires a second person. In the beginning, start closer together in an area without distractions, preferably fenced. Again, if you are worried about Minnie running away, keep a long line on her. Stand/kneel about 10 feet apart. One person kneels/squats and holds the dog by the chest (you don't want pressure on her neck by holding by the collar), the other person calls and reinforces heavily when she comes (jackpot treats, toy or tug play). The second person can either stand for recall or run away. Mix it up.  Then the first person calls Minnie and reinforces heavily. Happy, happy voices. Game play. Once you think she is doing well, gradually extend the distance.  ***Since this should be a high intensity game, sessions should be short. Only 3 or 4 times back and forth. And remember, mix it up. BCs get bored easily because they are so smart.

Long line. Most people here would not recommend a Flexi-lead. What we mean by a long line is something that a person who trains tracking/SAR dogs uses. Some people like the cotton webbing (feels good in your hands, but gets heavy when in wet conditions.) Others (myself included) prefer a biothane long line (3/8 inch). Biothane is a little slippery, but does not get heavy in wet conditions and it is easy to wipe off. (and it comes in many pretty colors) For training purposes, many times we want the long line to drag, and the flexi-lead is not designed to be used that way.

Dirty: getting dirty/messy is a sign that you are doing it right. A badge of honor.  LOL.

[JayJay]

Those biothane lead look awesome. I have one in fabric, that will soak everything it touches. Not ideal.

I will try to find a similar 30m lead in europe

The monkey game sounds fun to mix things up, thanks!

We have a big field next to our house that allows plenty of training in open space, it will be easy to broaden the distance during the exercises.

 

Edit: found them. 100$ for 100ft 70$ for 65ft

[gcv-border]

Great. Glad you found a source.  I don't think you need to go much longer than 30-40 feet.  Much longer would be VERY heavy and cumbersome. The lead should be long enough to allow some freedom, but not so long that it is heavy and impacts the dog when dragging it. If it is too long, you can always cut it.

[JayJay]

2 minutes ago, gcv-border said:

Great. Glad you found a source.  I don't think you need to go much longer than 30-40 feet.  Much longer would be VERY heavy and cumbersome. The lead should be long enough to allow some freedom, but not so long that it is heavy and impacts the dog when dragging it. If it is too long, you can always cut it.

30 ft is 40 bucks, getting cheaper by the minute

Our flexi is 28 ft. I thought that was so short already, doesnt really allow her to run?

[gcv-border]

No, she can not run too much, but she CAN range. While you are training her recall, it won't hurt her to stay a bit closer to you. And if you really want her to run without limitations, let her loose in a fenced in field. Then, if she blows off a recall, no harm (i.e. she can not escape to run after birds or run away on a road) - except that you know that she needs to stay on the long line longer and needs more training. So sad for her, but hey, at least it is information you can use to know where you are in your training.