Puppy questions

[Rosalee]

Hi everyone.

I am fairly new here, been doing a lot of reading of past posts.

We have a 16 week old BC puppy named Katie. She is our first BC and first puppy. We have always adopted or fostered in the past, no puppy experience and I am worried I am going to mess her up or something! She is great. So smart and eager to DO stuff. I think she has been settling in and doing pretty well so far.

two major issues. 

First, socialization. She has always been quite shy in general, around new people or dogs. We had enrolled her in puppy class, which was being conducted “virtually” due to pandemic, where we would drop her off and socialize with puppies in the class, work with trainers. Usually is hands on, but we are in lockdown now and was the best they could do. Only lasted 2 weeks until “stay at home” order, so class has been cancelled for now, a weekly zoom call and they hope to get puppies back together after order is lifted. Due to stay at home order, can’t have visitors over, can’t really meet people. Have met a couple dogs or people when out for walks, but we live in a tiny rural town and don’t see many people on walks. She can be quite suspicious of strangers, even barking, so I think I need to address this, not sure how exactly to go about it?

 

second issue, biting and pulling on kids clothes. I have two small boys, dog experienced and used to being respectful to our pets. But even I can see they act in an exciting and erratic manner for a puppy! They just move differently than adults. And Katie grabs on pant legs, shirt sleeves, winter mitts and snow pants when we are outside with her. I have been tell8ng them to “be a tree” when she does this, tell her “off” a command we have been teaching her, or “sit” which we have been working on them training with her with treats and she usually listens to from them. I can’t really get them to do the yelp thing, not skin contact? Sometimes this works, if not I  intervene. Is this just a matter on consistency and time, I know she is still just a baby, just don’t want this to go on as she gets bigger and stronger. Any other suggestions?

thanks for reading and any suggestions welcome

 

[puppytoes]

Congratulations on your puppy. Kids and puppies can definitely be a challenge. Our pup is 8 months old and we have 3 kids, the youngest being 6 ( I'm guessing yours are younger). It sounds like you're doing the right things. Kids (at least mine) have a crazy energy that sets sensitive dogs off. You could try having a high value toy to give her outside to try and dissuade her from going after clothing. You could also try to ensure that when they are outside together, they are walking calmly as opposed to running and jumping around her (hard I know). Not sure exactly what your outside situation is but maybe rotate them around so that the first 10 minutes, when both parties are at their rowdiest, they are not together. We found it got easier once teething was done but nipping can become a habit so you are right to try and sort it out. Good luck.

[D'Elle]

Hi Rosaleee, socializing a puppy during lockdown is somewhere between very difficult and impossible. If you have anyone in a "safe pod" - that is, someone you know extremely well who is taking all precaution at all times, and if you are as well, you could visit that person, but really I don't see much you can do in this situation. Normal socializing for a young dog just isn't possible.

As for the nipping, I would go one step farther with it. If she nips or grabs clothes, I would give her an "ah-ah", or use your "off" if you prefer, and if there is not immediate compliance, pop her into her crate for a little time out. If she comes out after 5 minutes and grabs again, then back into the crate she goes. Repeat repeat repeat. She will learn that if she mouths, all the fun stops and she is separated from the kind and you. Put the crate into a separate room and close the door and tell the kids they must not go in there. I also suggest that you not allow her access to the kids unless you are supervising, so that you can make this 100% consistent.

It's very important how you use the crate. Never make it seem like a punishment. This is all about your attitude, tone of voice, body language. No punishing attitude means the dog won't start associating the crate with a bad thing, which is very important.

When your babies were toddlers and got all worked up and over tired and started crying or behaving badly you just put them down for a nap, right? Use the same attitude with the puppy. "uh-oh, puppy needs a time out". This training tool is effective, but only if you are always consistent with it. And this is important, because if you don't train the dog that at all times and under all circumstances nipping or grabbing is unacceptable you may end up with an adult who thinks it's OK to do that at times, and that can lead to a lot of problems. That's why I say use the crate because it needs to be a definite no.

[Rosalee]

I understand the importance of getting over this before adulthood. Our last foster dog had some serious problems with mouthiness with the kids and as a result had to always be on a leash around them. My older son just turned 5, he is a very bright kid and understands the importance of this And if he ever starts thinking it is cute with the puppy wrestling his pant legs I can remind him of Liza, we don’t want her to be like Liza who no one ever taught her this as a puppy, etc. The younger is almost 3 and more of a wild card lol. But never left unsupervised for sure. She generally will let go with an ah-ah (reprimand) or off (kind of a back off command), but then repeats in another minute. Just feels like I am nagging her a lot. I have been encouraging them to play with her toys and they are pretty good at redirecting her or I do, or sometimes I have noticed after the ah-ah she will go get a toy herself and bring it to them, so she is starting to think about I I guess.

Right now it is cold here in Ontario, we probably have a couple hours of yard time with the kids in the afternoon. Summers they are out there a lot and hopefully can involve the puppy with less nagging by then. She really loves yard time with the family, but can get aggravating. I will try the suggestions of blowing of steam separately before they are together, because yes my boys do get pretty rowdy and I guess that energy is confusing for her! As well as time out in the crate could certainly be useful inside as well, especially in evening when she gets a bit batty. In those cases I have tried doing some training with her, she really likes this and then going in her pen with Kong if things start getting goofy. She really is a pretty good puppy.

 

as far as the socializing, it really doesn’t bother me if she doesn’t like meeting lots of people. We aren’t really social either, and I don’t particularly need her to greet people on walks and so on as an adult. But she gets quite nervous passing people and will bark at people who do approach. Ideally she would just be able to walk past without the stress for her, not sure how to achieve this and really not much chance to practice. We have had couple visitors to the house since we had her, including my mother who stayed for a couple days when my husband had surgery, she was shy but then warmed up. I have brought up my concerns at her puppy class zoom call, the trainer said she was al bit standoffish in class, preferred to observe the other puppies at “play time” and then join in at times, she felt was in character for the breed. I have been thinking of maybe parking ourselves on the bench in front of the post office in town, letting her see people go by a bit. Without necessarily greeting. Still foot traffic there a good bit, we don’t get mail delivery in our town have to go pick up mail there. 

[GentleLake]

1 hour ago, Rosalee said:

...She generally will let go with an ah-ah (reprimand) or off (kind of a back off command), but then repeats in another minute. Just feels like I am nagging her a lot...

This is why it's important to create a meaningful consequence to the unwanted behavior as D'Elle describes above. At this point it's just too easy for Katie to just pick up where she left off because she's still in play mode w/out having had a chance t reset. So removing her from the action both becomes a consequence that she'll find much less desirable than pulling at pants and it also settles her down to where she can use her brain cells to think about what she's doing.

 

[Rosalee]

Ok. Thanks. Will try putting her up for a couple minutes in the crate. 

Would you suggest following through to that degree every time she grabs clothes or giving a couple chances like trying the reprimand and then taking her to the crate if she goes at it again? Would just putting her inside for couple minutes if we are outside have the same effect or should it really be the crate? 

Thanks, sorry for all the questions!

[GentleLake]

If you're not consistent, how will she associate cause and effect? It will just teach her that sometimes she gets scooped up and taken to her crate. How will she know why?

And if you do do it often enough that she makes the connection, if you're not consistent and do it every time she'll just learn that sometimes she can do it w/out consequences and that if she persists she'll get to do it sometimes. It's the same drive that keeps gamblers going back for more. Just the allure of being able to win keeps them placing bets even though most of the time they don't win. This is why intermittent and unpredictable reward is so effective in dog training after the initial response is learned.

Putting her inside might work, but it also might not. If she's at all prone to destructiveness it could backfire on you, and it could interfere with her associating the cause with the effect if the effect changes.

You have young kids that I'm sure you've guided through their early lives to understand the rules. I know a lot of people don't appreciate comparisons between children and puppies, but honestly their motivations are pretty similar and so are the solutions. Putting yourself in their place is very useful in teaching both. One difference is that children develop language skills so that you can explain cause and effect to them.

[Rosalee]

Ok, makes sense. Honestly, the logistics of it will be tough because she is pretty constant with this clothes grabbing with the kids, though only with them, will be many trips to the crate. I will aim to be consistent and hopefully she starts to figure it out!

[puppytoes]

It sounds like it's an issue all the time but if she's anything like ours (dogs and kids haha), evenings are the hardest. They're all a bit tired and that makes them all even nuttier. We found that routines were very helpful in setting up expectations, tried to have a dirt of sequence of events each evening. I'm not sure if you have a partner, but divide and conquer can be helpful in the evenings, one parents gets the kids sorted for bed and the other takes care of the dogs (can be a walk, quiet time or forced nap) but we found the physical separation helpful (in our case, upstairs downstairs but even different rooms can help). I often found it easier to remove the kids but mine are older. Many people here have much more experience than I do but I sympathize, kids and puppies at the same time is intense. 

[puppytoes]

And I meant to add that puppies need a lot of sleep. Way more than I remember from my previous pup. She may be overtired a lot of the time. Something to consider.

[Rosalee]

Thanks puppytoes, it can get intense. Especially evenings with both. We have a pretty good evening routine with her I think right now and I do use her pen inside with a Kong for her when needed, or crate. My kids are also at the stage of having a million toys laying around sometimes, older boy sets up these elaborate scenes with dinosaurs or legos and younger whizzes his cars around. So at those times, definitely can’t have her in the room at this point. 

Thanks for advice.

[D'Elle]

I fully agree that using the time out in the crate every single time without any exception is very important. She will, as GL says above, only learn to keep doing it if your reinforcement with the crate is not completely consistent. As for it being a whole lot of in and out of the crate, I would make the time outs a little bit longer each time. first time is 3 minutes. Second is five. third is 8 and so on. She could also learn that if she gets mouthy all that happens is a two-minute time out, no big deal, and then she gets to go back and do it again. Increasing the time out every time she comes out and repeats it will extinguish that.

I like the idea of sitting and watching people go by. Have some treats with you and talk to her a lot. Oh look, there's another person...here's a little treat. Isn't it fun to watch people?  Here's a treat. Aren't people good?

As for being stand offish being a breed character, that's not necessarily true. Sometimes border collies prefer to play with their own kind, and this has a lot to do with their style of play which doesn't always suit other breeds of dogs. But what you are describing doesn't sound like that to me.