"Lethal" whites

[Eileen Stein]

There's no absolutely certain way to identify a white-factored dog by looking at it; unless you know one of its parents was a non-merle white dog (in which case it is necessarily white-factored) the only foolproof way to know it's white-factored is by its offspring. Dogs with white going up the front of the hind leg past the stifle and dogs with white patches on the back can be safely assumed to be white-factored. Dogs without these signs probably are not white-factored, but it's not a sure thing.

[brookcove]

My understanding is that there are two issues here. One is the double dilute, double merle, lethal white - that's all the names I can think of. That's when you breed two merles and get "homozygous" merle. It's a big no-no and is fairly easy to avoid if you're not breeding with color in mind.

 

The other issue concerns the gene that creates those neat white socks and blaze faces and collars and tail tips (or as on my ABCA papers: 4 socks, collar, blaze, TT). If that pattern widens out more and more, and the collar joins the front socks and the tail tip runs up the tail, and the back socks run up over the back, that's your piebald and pattern white dogs. The most white is most recessive (I think), less is dominant but how it's expressed is really complex.

 

With regards to finding a mate for a heavily white dog - if you have done what you can to determine that she is healthy and worthy of producing offspring, color is the least of your worries in narrowing down potential matches. Chances are the dog you select is not going to be fully pattern white, which would probably not be a good idea. If two classically marked or even mostly color BCs can produce high white pups, there's no way you can control what happens.

 

I had a friend over today with two collies. One was a mostly white with a sable merle head, and about BC sized. Even after all this time breeding for the bench, these still pop out in the lines. Guess what? She was far the better worker of the two and probably the best non-BC I've ever seen start out. Funny. Of course, she's spayed - God forbid we should pass on those awful genes to future collie generations (not my friend's fault, by the way - she got her through rescue).

 

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Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[BDW]

I am breeding (if I breed) for working ability but, because she is an extreme white I did my research. My whole life I have produced one litter of poodles. I really care about what I produce, where they go and how they are used. But, my white BC is such a nice bitch that I did not want to not breed her. She has no skin problems or other health issues.

 

The male I have chosen is an import and he has very little white, hardly any collar and white does not go much past his feet. But I think he is still WF because of past litters I have seen.

 

I absolutely LOVE his working abilities and his talent. I feel they will be a good match to produce some excellent pups. Both dogs pretty much work the farm and both have good stock sense and natural talents but want to work with you. Both work cattle & sheep.

 

Sounds like a nice Collie your friend got. I still see some nice working Rough or Smooth Collies now and then. Some breeders are keeping the instinct alive.

 

enjoyed the discussion....dianne

[HKM's Mom]

<

 

No, there is no such thing. If the dog is a true albino it has pink eyes and zero pigment.

The Dobermans mentioned on this thread are not called Albinos they are called "White Dobermans" according to the UKC. The do have blue eyes and the markings on the face, chest and legs are obvious.

Does anyone else on this board have a deaf dog?

[Eileen Stein]

http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/albinism/

[ikw]

I have a deaf dog. He's now 11 years old,he's been deaf since he was 5 years of age.

 

He knows sign languages (here,down,left,right) but goes completely deaf when I sign him "that'll do" on sheep. So,I just put him with 5-6 sheep on a 3 acre lot and walk out,he paces them around for hours and when he's had enough,he sits and waits by the gate for someone to come and let him out and he's a very happy boy for the rest of the day.

Actually,he has some hearing until he starts panting.

He was a working,trialling dog prior to his deafness due to sheep dip chemicals usage in Scotland. Out of 4 imported dogs from the same kennel with the same ear problems,he's the only one who survived and going strong.

He knows his limitations and quite savvy about many things unlike those who are born deaf. When he wonders off out on our walks,I have to wait for him exactly where he takes off and he always comes back to look for me on that spot first. When we are away from home base,he likes to go do the typical male dog things,if he won't see me,he'll jump on the back of the truck or the jeep (we leave the back open for him) and will sit there and wait. Surprisingly,he knows exactly which one is mine. I've often wondered whether it's the sight or the scent but no one could fool him on that matter.

It really isn't hard to live with a deaf dog but as I said,he went deaf as opposed to being born that way and knows to stay away from cars,equipments or any danger,we also live about a mile away from the road with a private driveway where not many drives up unannounced.

All our neighbours have a picture of him just in case if he'll wonder off which he's known to do time to time and they all know where to reach us. As soon as doggie GPS system becomes available,I'm getting one to strap it on his neck.

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

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It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ikw (edited 11-28-2002).]

[HKM's Mom]

Eileen,

Did you fully read the website you posted?

 

I show in NKC, and the breeders of these Dobermans (the ones I have met at their specialties) do not call them albinos. I was corrected the first time I made this error and will not soon forget it.

[Eileen Stein]

Yes, I did. What specifically did you find on that site that you think contradicts the statement that these Dobermans are albinos? I accept that you may have been chastised for using the term, but that doesn't mean the people who chastised you were right.

[HKM's Mom]

<>

 

She admits it is her opinion only in her disclaimer.

 

She defines albino as having no pigment, yet says they can actually have pigment in their eyes, skin, and fur. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't these two things contradict one another?

 

She later defines the merle to merle, or color dilute, breedings and if you read the result of these, on any breed, you see a more likely explaination for the White Doberman.

 

In addition, her site clearly explains there is no way to currently prove any dog is an albino since the specific gene as not been isolated in dogs. It has been done in humans so far. That being said calling a dog an albino is nothing more than an opinion. Even if the opinion is an educated one, it has no canine genetic basis to establish truth.

 

If you go to the White Dobrman Club or to the NKC sites you will see the opposite view on this same matter.

 

If they white doberman were actually an albino, how does one explain the ability for breeders to continue their own lines of these dogs and not have many of the severe health problems associated with albinos? The eye problems she attributes to albinos can be found in any breed or any color. We don't know it because we don't test many dogs to see if they needs glasses for myopia, etc

 

Her statement about the white dobie inability to obtain titles is simply outrageous. Few obedience people or agility people buy a dog not accepted by the common registries. If she wants to make this argument she should research how many blue or fawn Dobies have high OB or Agility titles? It isn't near as many as you find registered with the AKC.

 

While I appreciate her opinion on breeding these dogs, her claims have no real basis or truth. They are opinions.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Nowhere did I see any admission that this was her opinion only. What she does say (in the Introductory Remarks section) is:

 

"This site is intended to provide accurate information about albinism in general, and about albino Dobermans in particular. Don't live in ignorance -- learn the facts! . . . .

I have established this web site in order to present accurate information about albino Dobermans to the widest possible audience. My purpose is to provide facts, real-life experiences, and logic to supplant all the wishful thinking, hate-mongering, and emotionality infecting this issue."

 

>

 

She doesn't define albino as having no pigment; she defines it as C or P series mutations which result in a defect in the amount of pigment being produced and/or distributed. She references sites dealing with albinism in humans which define albinism in the same way: e.g. "People with albinism have little[emphasis added] or no pigment in the eyes, skin, and hair (or in some cases in the eyes alone). They have inherited from their parents an altered copy of a genes that does not work correctly."

 

>

 

She does discuss the merle to merle characteristics and explains why the white dobermen could not be merle-to-merle. Moreover, if you and your sources claim the White Dobermen are healthy, obviously they could not be double merles.

 

>

 

Well, albinos in many species (including humans) were identifiable as such before the causative gene was isolated. I think the site is pretty comprehensive in its consideration of the evidence that establishes albinism in these dogs -- particularly evidence provided by the results of test and accidental breedings, as well as physical examination -- even without the gene having been isolated.

 

I did go to the White Doberman Club site, and was pretty underwhelmed by its presentation. It talks about a supposed gene locus W, which is not a recognized color series, or at least not one I've ever encountered before. But for anyone who wants to pursue this somewhat off-topic issue , the White Doberman Club site is at http://www.whitedoberman.org/indexa.html and the statement of the Doberman Pinscher Club of America (AKC parent club) on the subject is at http://www.dpca.org/albinoinfo1.html

 

[This message has been edited by Eileen Stein (edited 11-28-2002).]

[HKM's Mom]

Well I guess we will just agree to disagree on this matter.

Her site is misleading in many areas and much of the information she uses is based on albinos, but the white Dobies have not been proven to be albinos yet. So the debate continues.

Her accusations about the breeders implies that the AKC is the only place a person could CH a dog when, in fact, there are plenty of CH white Dobes registered with the NKC.

People like this, who enjoy telling partial truths, mislead the general public to satisify their own beliefs or egos or both. If this woman wants to "prove" what she is saying, she should first prove these dogs are albinos, then explain how unhealthy, etc they are.

If her site were true, then I guess all dogs with strange health problems are albinos - having colored coats or brown eyes isn't relevant since according to her the albinos can have these things as well. Maybe my black and white BC is an albino. I'll get her eyes checked to be sure.

So in the end we agree to disagree, and move on to another topic more BC related and not albino related. Peace

[wildairbc]

Hi,

If the white Dobes have blue eyes, they are NOT albinos. This is a different white. In rabbits, it is referred to as "Vienna" white and is a classic example of an "incomplete recessive". This means, that if you breed such a dog to a "normally" solid colored dog, all of offspring will appear with the "Irish" pattern of white, but may have blue eyes. Further, if you breed a "Vienna" white to a true albino, you will get colored offspring, which is, of course, impossible with albino to albino.

True albinos have "pink" eyes (which appear "pink" simply because they are devoid of color and you are seeing capillary blood) and CANNOT show any trace of color. "Vienna" white also "restricts" the expression of color completely, EXCEPT for the blue eyes.

All "whites" genetically carry other colors- the "white" genes keep them from being expressed. It's like throwing a white sheet over an green armchair- it's still green, you just can't see it.

Thoughts, Bonnie

 

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What you believe has no effect on the truth.

[BDW]

>>All "whites" genetically carry other colors- the "white" genes keep them from being expressed. It's like throwing a white sheet over an green armchair- it's still green, you just can't see it.<<

 

What a wonderful explanation!

 

Thanks! Dianne

[Eileen Stein]

*sigh*

 

What is your basis for saying that White Dobermans are the same type of whites as Vienna rabbits? They do not show the inheritance pattern you describe for Vienna rabbits. A White/albino Doberman bred to a colored Doberman who does not carry the recessive white/albino gene will produce 100% colored offspring, not offspring with the Irish color pattern. A white/albino Doberman bred to another white/albino Doberman will produce all white/albino offspring. This is the typical autosomal recessive inheritance pattern typical of albinism.

 

As for blue eyes, see the following:

 

From the White Doberman website at http://www.geocities.com/~amazondoc/albinism/ :

 

 

As stated by Dr. Mark Ladd, a veterinary geneticist: "The iris colour in an adult dog is determined by two layers. An inner layer, which gives rise to the blue eyes present in all puppies just after birth, is not pigmented; the blue colour arises because of an absorption of the longer wavelengths of white light before reflection back...The outer layer gives rise to the dark eye as it becomes pigmented from melanin production in the eye....Albinism means the complete absence of melanin pigment (Searle, 1981).If one accepts this view, then dogs such as the white Dobermanns, with blue eyes, can be termed albinos." In fact, blue-eyed albino mutations are known to occur in several different species. As stated by William Oetting (a widely-known expert in albinism from the University of Minnesota), "The blue eyes is consistent with albinism. Dogs have an iris which is blue if it contains no pigment. . . . Animals with little or no iris (mouse, rat) have pink eyes." [Emphasis added]

 

Additionally, as mentioned above albinos can even have BROWN eyes -- and the color of an albino's eyes can change over time. To repeat a quote already mentioned in a previous section, from the International Albinism Center: "An important distinguishing characteristic of OCA1 is the presence of marked hypopigmentation at birth. Most individuals affected with a type of OCA1 have white hair, milky white skin, and blue eyes at birth. The irides can be very light blue and translucent such that the whole iris appears pink or red in ambient or bright light. During the first and second decade of life, the irides usually become a darker blue and may remain translucent or become lightly pigmented with reduced translucency. " >>

 

From the website of the National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation (NOAH), at http://www.albinism.org/publications/what_is_albinism.html

:

 

 

A common myth is that by definition people with albinism have red eyes. In fact there are different types of albinism, and the amount of pigment in the eyes varies. Although some individuals with albinism have reddish or violet eyes, most have blue eyes. Some have hazel or brown eyes. >>