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reploidphoenix

What is considered inbreeding

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I've got my problem puppies papers finally in the mail. Is there any restrictions on inbreeding for the abca? I saw AKC you're allowed to breed brother and sister and such to get physical standards for the breed? My pup's father is also his grandfather..and the grandparents are on the father's side are the great grandparents on the mothers side. I kind of suspected inbreeding since he's reactive and alot of the family members have issues..or is this probably not the issue? I'm not Familiar with breeding Dogs.
I haven't found anything on this breeder online in my research.

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Yeah, that's inbreeding allright. Also watch out for the term " linebreeding", that is also a term for inbreeding used by people who don't want to call it what it is.

What "counts" as inbreeding, or acceptable inbreeding varies wildly with what kind of breeder you talk to. Personally I do not want to see any inbreeding in my pups ( I don't breed myself).

Can you return the pup? (Edit, looked at your other topic, looks rather hopeless.)

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Agree with the above - that is definitely inbreeding, and no matter what you call it, it is a very bad thing. This is another one of many reasons I detest the AKC. They don't care what is done to dogs in the name of breeding to a "standard", or how harmful it is to all those individual dogs. I hope your dog doesn't have health problems as a result of such deplorable breeding and I wish you luck. This is one way to learn how not to choose a puppy, and I am sorry you are learning it this way. 

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I haven't had any registered dogs for quite a few years now, but I don't think ABCA has any restrictions on inbreeding. Your pup's registration with a pedigree indicating considerable inbreeding would seem to confirm that. I don't think most registries do and I'm pretty sure ACK doesn't.

As always, I welcome being corrected if someone knows for a fact that this is incorrect.

 

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This is a pretty complicated issue. One thing to be aware of is that even if one parent is highly inbred as is the case with the sire of your pup, that doesn't make your puppy inbred IF the mother was not closely related to the sire.   It seems counter intuitive, but two highly inbred parents don't produce inbred offspring unless the two parents are closely related to each other. 

What you really have to look at is how many common ancestors are behind both the sire and the dam, how many times these common ancestors show up on both the top and bottom half of the pedigree, and how far back in the pedigree these common ancestors are.  If you go to this site  http://bullypedigrees.com/inbreeding-calculator/    there is a nifty FREE tool in which you can enter the pedigree information and it will calculate a coefficient of inbreeding for you (COI).  The catch is that the COI can increase, sometimes a lot, the more generations you enter.  But the COI will only get worse (increase) as you add generations, it won't improve (decrease) as you add generations.   So if you have a high COI in three or four generations you know you have a highly inbred dog.  If you have a low COI with three or four generations, you might still find out your dog is more inbred as you go further back in the pedigree.  Anyway, the site I linked has lots of other links to discussions of COI.  You can spend hours there if you are so inclined.

So, what's a high COI you ask?   Well, ask 10 breeders and you'll get 10 different answers.  But, generally,  breeders kinda sorta recognize that a breed is in trouble if the COI across the whole population is above about 10 %.   I've seen recommendations that individual litters should have COI's below 2.5 %, but again, no hard and fast rules here. 

So, if the your dog has a pair of grandparents on one side of the pedigree that are great grandparents on the other half, you already have a COI of about 3.1 % which many breeders would consider to be on the high end of what might be acceptable.  If the father/grandfather of your pup's sire is the one that is also the great grandfather of your dam, then the COI will be higher.  And that's only going back 4 generations.   It could be much higher by the time you went back a few more generations and found more dogs that showed up multiple times on both sides of the pedigree.

Does all of this explain your pup's behavior issues?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Behavior and health and fertility and longevity problems can crop up in outcrossed litters with low COI's that go back 10 or more generations.  All those things are more likely in inbred litters, but that's a statistical likelihood.  It tell us nothing about any individual problem in any individual dog or individual litter.

 

 

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There is nothing wrong with inbreeding when the right dogs are bred together. That’s how you get consistent results in offspring, and how breeds are created. 

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There is a lot wrong with inbreeding.  Just look at how all those pretty recently created  breeds are faring. Small genetic base, closed registry, just a big inbred mating party.

Oh yeah, very consistent results, dogs that look like eachother's clones ( what a great breeding goal!), and off course all the genetic defects you can think of. Oh but we responsible breeders have tests for those! Pop! Oh noes, there's a new one! And ups,  another, well quick, more tests, and culling! We can defeat them!.:rolleyes:

Good  old days, when the bordercollie was "just" a type, and not a breed. As far as I am concerned the best thing that could happen to dogs is the end of "pure breeding". 

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Thank you everyone for your replies! I guess being abca registered I hoped I wouldn't get such a mess of a pup,  but it seems it doesn't matter to the organization if they are inbred.

The pups reactivity has gotten alot better.  He was very reactive at 8 weeks old, which a trainer told me was a red flag. My husband wanted him because he was cute..and a friend was selling him for the breeder. Family members in my area that are related have fear/ aggression issues.. ..and the dogs sharing the same sire as a father seem to have pidgeon toed legs in the back where they walk kinda weird.

My girl came from a rep breeder, and has no repeats in her family line. She is related by a couple common ancestors, and both have some barnes border collie lineage from texas.

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16 hours ago, Hooper2 said:

This is a pretty complicated issue. One thing to be aware of is that even if one parent is highly inbred as is the case with the sire of your pup, that doesn't make your puppy inbred IF the mother was not closely related to the sire.   It seems counter intuitive, but two highly inbred parents don't produce inbred offspring unless the two parents are closely related to each other. 

What you really have to look at is how many common ancestors are behind both the sire and the dam, how many times these common ancestors show up on both the top and bottom half of the pedigree, and how far back in the pedigree these common ancestors are.  If you go to this site  http://bullypedigrees.com/inbreeding-calculator/    there is a nifty FREE tool in which you can enter the pedigree information and it will calculate a coefficient of inbreeding for you (COI).  The catch is that the COI can increase, sometimes a lot, the more generations you enter.  But the COI will only get worse (increase) as you add generations, it won't improve (decrease) as you add generations.   So if you have a high COI in three or four generations you know you have a highly inbred dog.  If you have a low COI with three or four generations, you might still find out your dog is more inbred as you go further back in the pedigree.  Anyway, the site I linked has lots of other links to discussions of COI.  You can spend hours there if you are so inclined.

So, what's a high COI you ask?   Well, ask 10 breeders and you'll get 10 different answers.  But, generally,  breeders kinda sorta recognize that a breed is in trouble if the COI across the whole population is above about 10 %.   I've seen recommendations that individual litters should have COI's below 2.5 %, but again, no hard and fast rules here. 

So, if the your dog has a pair of grandparents on one side of the pedigree that are great grandparents on the other half, you already have a COI of about 3.1 % which many breeders would consider to be on the high end of what might be acceptable.  If the father/grandfather of your pup's sire is the one that is also the great grandfather of your dam, then the COI will be higher.  And that's only going back 4 generations.   It could be much higher by the time you went back a few more generations and found more dogs that showed up multiple times on both sides of the pedigree.

Does all of this explain your pup's behavior issues?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Behavior and health and fertility and longevity problems can crop up in outcrossed litters with low COI's that go back 10 or more generations.  All those things are more likely in inbred litters, but that's a statistical likelihood.  It tell us nothing about any individual problem in any individual dog or individual litter.

 

 

The link doesnt work. Do I need a computer to access it?

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On 12/31/2018 at 6:55 AM, reploidphoenix said:

it seems it doesn't matter to the organization if they are inbred

It's not an issue of its not mattering to the organization, but one of not imposing regulations. Those are 2 different things. 

There can arguably be legitimate reasons for some careful and thoughtful inbreeding (though I tend to fall on the con side of the argument), though rarely to the extent that you're describing.

It doesn't make much sense for you to be redirecting your anger and frustration with this breeder onto the registry. It would be more appropriate to admit that you made an impulsive decision without informing yourselves of the reputability and got burned by an irresponsible puppy miller.

It happens. It's time to move on. If there's something you can do to warn others to steer clear of these folks by identifying them publicly, then by all means do it. But there's really no one else to blame but the people at fault for making the decisions, which are primarily the breeders and secondarily you for not doing your due diligence before purchasing the pup.

 

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Try this: Type www.bullypedigrees.com into your browser. Click on “COI CALCULATOR” on the black menu strip at the top.

 

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59 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

It's not an issue of its not mattering to the organization, but one of not imposing regulations. Those are 2 different things. 

There can arguably be legitimate reasons for some careful and thoughtful inbreeding, though rarely to the extent that you're describing.

It doesn't make much sense for you to be redirecting your anger and frustration with this breeder onto the registry. It would be more appropriate to admit that you made an impulsive decision without informing yourselves of the reputability and got burned by an irresponsible puppy miller.

It happens. It's time to move on. If there's something you can do to warn others to steer clear of these folks by identifying them publicly, then by all means do it. But there's really no one else to blame but the people at fault for making the decisions, which are primarily the breeders and secondarily you for not doing your due diligence before purchasing the pup.

 

Oh, I'm not trying to attack the abca..I'm just wondering why they dont regulate it more carefully to avoid cases like this is all. I solely blame the breeder for spitting out puppies every couple months and selling them to a broker to get rid of. Someone also said puppy mills aren't illegal unless neglect can be proven.

Hes a sweet dog honestly...its just a real shame. Its upsetting to me they're still spitting out these puppies

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Clear your browser’s cache before trying my suggestion. When I tried it a second time I got a blank page, but after clearing my cache it worked.

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I think it's probably upsetting to all of us. I certainly share that sentiment and wish there were more government oversight of people like this. It would be nice if the registry had the resources to police it as well. But it would be a prohibitively intensive task to monitor every pedigree received, not to mention the implications of attempting to exert that kind of control over breeding decisions, especially in the absence of other oversight.

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8 minutes ago, terrecar said:

Clear your browser’s cache before trying my suggestion. When I tried it a second time I got a blank page, but after clearing my cache it worked.

I cant seem to get it to work even after that. I could take a screen shot of his paper if anyone is willing

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This is what I got. When I tried to save the file via the website, it came up as a blank .txt file. I got around that but the format is sequential and too long to post here.

ABC 468959

Inbreeding: F = 25.00%
25.00% through ABC 343222 (1 path)

ETA: If I had paid better attention, I’d have seen your pup’s COI was 25% without plugging in the numbers, since he is from a father-daughter breeding. Oh well.

 

 

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2 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

Oh, I'm not trying to attack the abca..I'm just wondering why they dont regulate it more carefully to avoid cases like this is all. I solely blame the breeder for spitting out puppies every couple months and selling them to a broker to get rid of. Someone also said puppy mills aren't illegal unless neglect can be proven.

Hes a sweet dog honestly...its just a real shame. Its upsetting to me they're still spitting out these puppies

As far as the inbreeding aspect and the ABCA go, it relates to what Smalahundur said: registries are closed gene pools anyway, so it would be hard for registries to pass anything about inbreeding when that's what breeds are in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, terrecar said:

This is what I got. When I tried to save the file via the website, it came up as a blank .txt file. I got around that but the format is sequential and too long to post here.

ABC 468959

Inbreeding: F = 25.00%
25.00% through ABC 343222 (1 path)

ETA: If I had paid better attention, I’d have seen your pup’s COI was 25% without plugging in the numbers, since he is from a father-daughter breeding. Oh well.

 

 

Thanks for doing that for me. I really appreciate your time. I look at as hes got a loving home where he could have ended up at a shelter or rescue

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20 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

I look at as hes got a loving home where he could have ended up at a shelter or rescue

I'm genuinely happy that he's got a loving home, and I say that without any sarcasm or irony.

However, it's important to understand that that kind of thinking is what keeps puppy mills, pet stores and brokers that sell their puppies in business. I'm not saying that's your thinking, but it is the rationalization that far too many people use to justify purchasing from known puppy mills and their agents. But the end result is that even more puppies are produced by these people.

Not to belabor the point, but it's why people should know who they're buying from.

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16 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

I'm genuinely happy that he's got a loving home, and I say that without any sarcasm or irony.

However, it's important to understand that that kind of thinking is what keeps puppy mills and pet stores that sell their puppies in business. I'm not saying that's your thinking, but it is the rationalization that far too many people use to justify purchasing from known puppy mills and their agents. But the end result is that even more puppies are produced by these people.

Not to belabor the point, but it's why people should know who they're buying from.

I was friends with the person selling them. She told me twice a year she would buy puppies from a breeder in NY to get her puppy fix without having to keep them. She sells them in my area. He was very young, and her dog from the same breeder is perfect. Not all pups are effected by bad breeding. One relative will bite ur face off if you come anywhere near the owner. The other two have fear aggression and resource guarding. My neighbors dog that is a half brother has been kick out of multiple day cares for rough play/borderline aggression. 

My pup was very young when I got him and seemed ok. About a week after I got him he became reactive..even though from the beginning he had resource guarding i fixed. This "friend" blamed his issues on me, saying he wasnt this way when she had him. She offered to take him back, but I don't see animals as disposable.  He had become attached to us and it's not fair. I'm just mad at very least this person continues to buy and sell pups from this breeder. If shes going buy and sell puppies(as wrong as it is in and if itself), atleast find a breeder with good dogs. It looks bad on the breed, and it's a shame these dogs live with their mental issues.

My girl lola I waited a year for that breeder to have pups. She was an "opps" litter from a sire he didnt plan on breeding, but was a gift from a family member. She has no repeats in her family tree anywhere. I chose him because my other friend has 3 of his dogs.

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No, not all poorly bred dogs have issues -- some get lucky -- and of course some excellently bred dogs do, but there were lots of red flags here. Hopefully a lesson learned.

As for your other dog, if also a border collie, there may not be any repeats in a 4 generation pedigree, but there are very few border collies that don't go back to a few key dogs, often at least 2 or more, at least a few generations further back.

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16 hours ago, reploidphoenix said:

I was friends with the person selling them. She told me twice a year she would buy puppies from a breeder in NY to get her puppy fix without having to keep them.

 Completely off topic, but what a weird person this is....

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