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ShellyF

Should he be this tired? - Update

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We have done graduated walks with our pup and a variety of mental and physical exercise but I am surprised at how it still doesn’t take too much to tire him out. 

He’s now 6.5 months and today we took him for a walk that was 15 mins out,  a 10 minute romp on a sandy beach then 15 mins back. So 40 mins in all. 

This was after a morning where he was happy with a 10 minute walk around our property (twice), 10 minutes play and bits and bobs of training that was intermittent fun, rather than anything arduous. 

He’s struggling to do much else this afternoon although he would if we offered but I can see he’s too tired to cope. We also noticed yesterday that after playing ball (he was running 100’ for it maximum) he was choosing to lie down and rest after a few runs. Our old dog used to do that once she became a senior. 

Our daughter commented how quickly our pup gets out of breath after just a few tosses of a toy indoors. 

He happily goes into his crate at approx 10pm until 8am the following morning and he has two periods in his crate during the day of about 1.5 hours each. His vet last saw him about a month ago and he said he looks in great shape  

Does any of this raise flags or is he still too young to have much stamina?

We are experienced with dogs but this is the first we’ve had from a pup. 

TIA 

 

Update - well vet says he is just fine. We were apparently (unintentionally) underfeeding him. So he needed more fuel!

We’re getting this sorted. He’s now enjoying a 40 minute walk on top of his yard walks and playtime and we’ve also found a few places where he can do a lot of running around on grass. He’s happy to rest for the remainder of the day but vet says that’s normal as he’s just learned to be calm and restful when we are. 

He’s 40lb and 7 months. They want us to feed him 1200 calories with more on days of extra running. I only reduced his food because another vet said to, so it kind of depends who you talk to!

Anyway - thanks guys for all your good suggestions :) 

Edited by ShellyF
Update

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Hi Sheryl,

It is good that you are concerned about your pup's lack of endurance, and there are several issues that could cause this.  The first issue that comes to my mind is that your pup may be affected by an Intestinal Cobalamin Malabsorption problem (also called IGS).   Pups affected with IGS often have poor endurance and tire quite easily, and this worsens as the pup ages.  Often IGS affected pups will "crash" before they are a year old due to severe anemia.  Pups that are affected by IGS are treated with injections of vitamin B-12, and they fully recover and have normal energy levels and endurance.  I have an IGS affected youngster that receives a B-12 shots monthly, and she is now every bit as energetic as any other Border Collie pup that I've had.  Fortunately, there is a test for IGS through Paw Print Genetics that will determine our dog's IGS status, and I feel that everyone breeding Border Collies should test for IGS (along with several other issues that affect our breed).   Hopefully, your pup's breeder tests their breeding dogs for IGS to determine if they are Normal, Carrier, or Affected, then makes breeding decisions based on that information.  If your breeder did not have their dogs tested, please mention IGS to your vet (some vets do not know of this disorder).  I do recommend that you take your pup to your vet for an exam and blood work, as IGS is only one of the issues that may be affecting your pup.  Best wishes to you and your pup!

nancy

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That’s interesting thanks. 

I notice that his weight has dropped off this week despite no reduction in food and I did wonder about his gums. His gums are very pale but still pink. 

I will get him checked out. 

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19 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

...I did wonder about his gums. His gums are very pale but still pink. 

Depending on whether this is normal coloration for him or something new, it could be indicative of a variety of medical issues that require veterinary attention, especially in conjunction with fatigue.

Have they always been like that or is this different from what they used to be? The shade of pink can vary from dog to dog under normal circumstances, but an individual dog's gums should be relatively stable in color. You might want to do a search online for pictures of dogs' gums for comparison.

You might also want to check his capillary refill time. If you press on the gums, it forces blood out of the capillaries and become pale. When you release the pressure the color should come back almost immediately, within a second or 2. If it takes longer than that it could be cause for concern and is definitely something to consult a vet about.

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29 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

That’s interesting thanks. 

I notice that his weight has dropped off this week despite no reduction in food and I did wonder about his gums. His gums are very pale but still pink. 

I will get him checked out. 

Pups with IGS are often labeled as "failure to thrive", and weight loss (or failing to gain) for no apparent reason is a symptom.   Pale gums could indicate that your pup is somewhat anemic, which is another symptom.  Your vet will check for several issues that could cause your pup's symptoms, but please make certain that they are aware of the possibility that it may be IGS,   We are very fortunate to now have a genetic test to determine if dogs are affected by IGS (via a cheek swab submitted to Paw Print Genetics), and if so, it is easily treated with B-12.   Again, it's great that you have noticed your that your pup is NQR ("not quite right") and are taking steps to ascertain if he has a serious health issue.  Best wishes to you both!

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1 hour ago, GentleLake said:

You might also want to check his capillary refill time. If you press on the gums, it forces blood out of the capillaries and become pale. When you release the pressure the color should come back almost immediately, within a second or 2. If it takes longer than that it could be cause for concern and is definitely something to consult a vet about.

I will check that - thanks @GentleLake

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18 minutes ago, Donald McCaig said:

lyme?

Donald

I don’t think it’s Lyme. He’s protected with a monthly tick treatment and we do daily tick checks. 

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1 hour ago, NCStarkey said:

Intestinal Cobalamin Malabsorption problem (also called IGS).   Pups affected with IGS often have poor endurance and tire quite easily, and this worsens as the pup ages.

Not sure if IGS is the only cause of cobalamin malabsorption, though with a border collie puppy it's a likely cause of it.

I had what I believed to be a border collie mix who developed cobalamin malabsorption. With her the symptoms developed when she was much older, 9 or older IIRC (I never knew her exact age). In her case she had a lot of diarrhea and vomiting, which is what led me to take her to the vet. Nancy's right, many vets don't recognize the symptoms. I spent a lot of time with her being miserable before I found a vet who correctly diagnosed her w/ intestinal disease that resulted in the malabsorption. Treatment was incredibly simple -- regular B 12 injections that I was able to give her myself.

So if considering the malabsorption, don't limit the inquiry to IGS.

Wishing you the best. Please keep us updated.

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1 hour ago, ShellyF said:

I don’t think it’s Lyme. He’s protected with a monthly tick treatment and we do daily tick checks. 

Where was he born, do you know, Shelly F? My  Gibbs was born in Conneticut, his dam's owners didn't find out she was Lyme + till well after the pups were born and gone on to new homes. He tests + as well, but as shown no effects or illness so far.

If you know he was born in a Lyme area, might be worth it to get the test.

Ruth & Gibbs

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8 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

I have just checked in with the breeder who did check for IGS and she says the Dame is clear. 

Glad that you checked with your pup's breeder, and if the dam is "clear" (hopefully meaning "Normal"), then you pup wouldn't be affected (affected pups would need both parents to be carriers).  However, the breeder should provide you with a copy of the dam's genetic test results to verify that she is Normal.  

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1 hour ago, ShellyF said:

@GentleLake Thanks and yes I will for sure! 

I have just checked in with the breeder who did check for IGS and she says the Dame is clear. 

@urge to herd There is no Lyme where the breeder is. So can Lyme be inherited? 

The Lyme bug isn't inherited, but can be passed to the gestating pups inside the mom's womb. 'Inheriting' is a genetic thing, so offspring can inherit from either mother or father. The dam having a Lyme infection and passing it to the pups is a different form of transmission of the agent, so in the strict sense of the word, Lyme is not inherited, but can be passed from mother to offspring. I don't have any idea if all offspring would all become Lyme positive, or if some would somehow be 'immune' while still in the womb.

Ruth & Gibbs

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19 hours ago, urge to herd said:

I don't have any idea if all offspring would all become Lyme positive, or if some would somehow be 'immune' while still in the womb.

There's a difference between being Lyme positive and actively having the disease.

The SNAP tests identify the antibodies in the blood that are created when the immune system mounts a defense against a virus or pathogenic bacteria. If the immune system's effective in counteracting the exposure to the pathogen, then the clinical disease may never develop, but the antibodies will still show up in the blood, as they also will if the clinical disease does develop. The SNAP tests alone aren't diagnostic of the clinical disease absent other symptoms and/or further antibody testing.

One of my dogs is Lyme+ every year when she's tested, but she's never shown the merest symptom or clinical signs of having Lyme disease. The first time it showed up 4 years ago the vet told me she'd cleared the pathogen on her own without having actually developed the disease, and that she may (or may not) come up as Lyme+ on the SNAP test for the rest of her life. IOW, I have to watch her carefully for symptoms and do further testing for an accurate diagnosis should she ever become reinfected in the future.

That said, I have read about Lyme disease being passed to human infants in utero, I assume from mothers with active clinical disease.

Dunno if the antibodies would transfer from the mother to the infants or not. Might be worth asking the vet.

Keep in mind, though, that all of the things people have mentioned here are just possibilities. Many things can cause lethargy or decreased stamina, which is why it's better to consult your vet who can do an exam and look for a range of things.

 

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12 hours ago, GentleLake said:

There's a difference between being Lyme positive and actively having the disease.

 

 

Yes, Gibbs shows no symptoms at all. My regular vet isn't worried about it at all, and he's a healthy dog, just turned 11. 

Ruth & Gibbs

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