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Do breeders usually include epilepsy in their health guarantee? nm


pack42
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Bonnie,

 

What's the basis for your guarantee? Do you have some genetic knowledge that no one else does, or are you just betting that, since this is an illness that effects such a tiny proportion of the breed that you can guarantee against it without much risk?

 

Do you guarantee that your dogs will not be struck by lightning?

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

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I guess when I provide a guarantee (and I do not breed pups) I believe I am saying that my product *will* be free of these defects. The best guarantee is one that is never used -- for both parties. It seems like you're asking a breeder to guarantee things that are beyond his or her control.

 

Given that we don't really understand the genetics of hip dysplasia, and we know that there are at least some environmental factors involved in whether the disease is expressed, it seems strange to me that people ask for a guarantee that the pup will be free of it.

 

Similarly, our understanding of epilepsy (which is a tiny problem within the breed, and hardly worth mentioning as a genetic issue) is quite murky. It does seem to be more prevalent in some lines, but it is not a breedwide problem by any means.

 

Collie eye anomoly affects about 2 percent of the breed, and is probably carried by an additional 20 percent that are not affected. Even breeding two dogs that are clear can produce affected pups. (A DNA test for unaffected carriers is supposedly in the not-too-distant future, at which point we will be able to eradicate this disease altogether.)

 

My reason for raising these issues is that I think, as a dog owner, you need to take responsibility for the health and well being of the dog, and not simply ask for guarantees from the breeder for things that are beyond his or her control. Or, alternatively, if you ask for guarantees against every imaginable defect, you should be willing to pay a great deal for your pup.

 

Personally, I think a frank and open discussion about the diseases in the breed, the likelihood that they will crop up in the lines that are being bred, how to care for a pup properly, and what to do if problems arise is much more important than a guarantee of things that are beyond the breeder's control.

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 09-10-2002).]

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From what I understand, the breeders who do give health guarantees usually extend that guarantee up until the dog is 2 years old. It would be hard to guarantee the health for the whole life of a dog. There are so many environmental things that can affect the dogs' health.

 

Also, most dogs that develop epilepsy don't have their first seizure until they are 2-5 years of age. Of course there are exceptions to that rule. Just because a dog seizures also doesn't mean that it is epileptic or that it is an hereditary form of epilepsy. There are environmental things that can cause seizures such as lead poisoning.

 

I also do feel that epilepsy/seizures are not something to brush off because a person might think that it doesn't occur very often in the Border Collie breed. In most genetic and health books the Border Collie is listed as a breed that has a problem with seizures. All a person has to do is go through the archives here and you will see that a fair number of people have asked about seizures and epilepsy. The biggest thing too is if you have ever dealt with a dog that seizured, then don't try to tell that person that it is a trivial thing and isn't a problem in the breed.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Kathy

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As a breeder,I like to know what guarantees do the buyers are willing to provide me with?

 

You know pack42,the breeder turns a pup over to a person with certain trust, promise and/or contracts to follow. At certain point they fail these promises but are not willing to turn the dog over since the law clearly states "possession is 9/10th of the law".

I loathe when the buyers thinks it is the buyers market and start demanding things,yet fails to play their share.

If this sounds insensitive to you,some breeders major focus lays strickly on the well being of their creations (pups) and not on the buyers expectations.

 

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

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Since it is hard to guarantee against certain things that happen in life, my contract states that the PARENTS have been checked and clear of eye diseases - they are CERF'd. My contract also states that the parents hips have been x-rayed--they are OFA'd. It also states that the parents are free of epilepsy. It also states that the pup/dog at the time of sale is in good health & have the vet records to back it up.

 

 

What I'm saying is, is if push comes to shove in court, if your contract states that the pups are guaranteed against hip dysplasia, epilepsy etc., etc., as a breeder, one would be liable for a wide variety of health issues. You are guaranteeing the pup, and all that anyone can do is to lay the best groundwork possible in producing a healthy pup by having the parents checked & cleared for the variety of disorders that can affect a dog and show up in a dog a couple of years down the road. To say "I guarantee this pup.... etc, etc.," is really leaving oneself open legally for things that we have no control over once the pup leaves the breeder's home. If all one's contract says is that I have done the best I possibly can in having done the work and research BEFORE producing a litter, then I feel that is sufficient for the breeder, the buyer, the legal system.

 

Genetics is for the most part a crap shoot. Epilepsy, unless there is very obviously a brain tumor causing the seizures, is iffy in it's origins and all one can do is not breed from any dog that has epilepsy in it's background. A rap on the head which results in seizures, however, is a different story--one that the breeder should not be held responsible for.

 

And if something should show up, in spite of all the "best laid plans", a reputable breeder should stand behind what they produce and take the pup/dog back, at any time. I would think that a reputable breeder would want to know if epilepsy developed in any of the pups they produced, and possibly rethink their breeding program.

 

As a puppy buyer, you have the responsibility to educate yourself and ask the right questions. The buyer beware applies here. No one has enough control over genetics to guarantee that every pup they produce is 100 per cent free of every disorder. That does not excuse breeding sick dogs for $$$$$, nor does it excuse someone not taking back something they produced if something does show up.

 

That's the difference between reputable breeders and those in it for the $$$$$.

 

Vicki

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PRA (cannot be detected as a pup)

 

Collie Eye Anomaly (could be and SHOULD be checked between the ages of 6-8 weeks)

 

Epilepsy (both parents,grand-parents,g-grand parents may be free yet may show up on a pup,could also be environmental and diet related)

 

Thyroid (see epilepsy and they are somehow related)

 

Iris Coloboma (see puppy eye exam)

 

Juvenile Cataracts (see puppy eye exam)

 

Hip Dysplasia (OFA Certification worse than Fair) (both sets of parents,grand parents,g-grand parents may not be affected with CHD,that will not guarantee the pup)

 

Elbow Dysplasia (unknown in Border Collies,affects large breeds more frequently)

 

Skin Allergies (studies are known to suggest as diet and *environment related)

*pups/dogs living indoors.

 

Deafness (working dogs are not known to be affected where the coat/eye colors are not the ultimate reasons for breeding)

 

Blindness (see puppy eye exam)

 

Temperament (different meaning and a definition for the working dogs,good temperament usually stands for the ability to take the training pressure without turning off the stock or sulking,not being a major social butterfly who greets everyone with a gusto)

 

pack42,I'm glad you are doing your home work but if I were to come across a potential buyer such as yourself,these will be my questions to you.

 

How many head of sheep/goat/cattle do you own?

How much knowledge do you have in livestock?

Are you able to read stock?

How many pups have you started in the past?

How many pups have you started and were able to finish enough to run and place with them?

Are you able to bend stock to your movements without an aid from a dog?

How far are you willing to take a pup?

If you are in need of help with your dog on stock,who would you ask to assist you?

Have you ever giving up on a pup?

If yes,where did you place those pups and what are they doing now?

And lastly,tell me who you know and who knows you in the working Border Collie world?

 

Anyone who gets stuck in any of these questions,don't need a working Border Collie pup.

 

 

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ikw (edited 09-10-2002).]

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Inci brings up a good point. The very best guarantee I've ever found was the one where on phoning someone about their puppies/dogs I was given a complete third degree about ME.

 

In fact my last dog I spent 1/2 a day talking with the person before I was even allowed to see the "maybe for sale" dog.

 

I would never buy a dog from anyone who did not ask me zillions of questions.

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INCI --- I am already aware of all that you posted about PRA etc. This has obviously helped me to weed out the nasty breeders. Quit untactful reply. I also realize buyers have a big responsiblity and I am not some joe schmoe scum hoe and you are obviously not the breeder for me because I am not looking for a working dog or a breeder with a nasty disposition.

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No pack42,not nasty just very,very cautious whom I deal with.

 

You may not realize but breeding a litter takes a whole lot of dedications,time (planning,researching,etc.) up to 2-3 years and money,.

As a breeder,I'm responsible for any pups created here until their deaths. If they need any unforseen medical attention and the owner may be short on funds,guess who pays for it? Me as a breeder.

If the owners aren't able to take care or work the dog,guess who buys them back and refunds their years of expenses both for their upkeep and incidentals? Me as a breeder.

 

If we,as a potential buyer and a potential seller lack any mutual communication and trust,dog's future will be in jeopady.

 

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

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Inci,

 

You are right about possesion being 9/10ths of the law, a neighbor who breeds golden retreivers co-owned one of their pups with another party. When she discovered that the dog was kept in a dirty kennel most of the time, she started the proccess of repossesion. It ended up costing her $4,000 to get a dog back that she was half owner of, and that was even with a contract that stated she could reposses if the dog wasn't kept properly!!

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I guess the core issue here is what a guarantee means, and why is it there in the first place.

 

In the world of commerce, a guarantee is a promise by a manufacturer that a product will meet certain defined standards for a certain period of time. Because most consumers can't see or intellegently evaluate the manufacturing process -- indeed, they can't even talk to the manufacturer directly -- the guarantee is a substitute for trust.

 

The same is true of things like organic certification. If you know a little about agriculture and can talk to the farmer, you don't need organic certification *if* (and this is a big if) you trust the person on the other side of the transaction to a.) answer your questions truthfully and b.) understand the issues that are important to you and go beyond your question to fill in missing blanks.

 

The same is true of puppy purchases. There should be a bond of trust and understanding between the breeder and the puppy's prospective master. If there's anything that makes either party uncomfortable, they should walk away from the bargain -- no hard feelings.

 

Personally, when I'm starting a relationship with someone that I expect to last upwards of 15 years, I don't want to make lots of promises that I don't have control over. And while it might make someone more comfortable to have a guarantee that they can return the puppy if it develops epilepsy, I would rather discuss the disease and its possible causes with them, so that they could make an informed decision about whether they wanted to risk raising a pup that might or might not develop this disease.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, I believe that a guarantee is not simply a promise to refund money under certain circumstances, it's a promise that certain things will or will not happen. There's no way that a breeder can promise that a puppy won't develop epilepsy or CHD, or that it will be the next national nursery champion.

 

If you need to get your money back if the dog doesn't live up to your standards, make sure you explain that to the person you're buying a puppy from. If it were me selling the pup, concerns about getting money back would be enough to make me suggest that they look elsewhere for a dog. The puppy price should be the least of your worries. As Inci says, I'd be more concerned about the promises that the puppy buyer makes me.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

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If it were me selling the pup, concerns about getting money back would be enough to make me suggest that they look elsewhere for a dog. The puppy price should be the least of your worries. As Inci says, I'd be more concerned about the promises that the puppy buyer makes me.>>Bill F.

 

While I agree with the above, I do have to say that epilepsy is on my list of the big ones- hip dysplasia, epilepsy, eye problems, and deafness that I would expect guaranteed against, and if I was selling pups I would agree to refund purchase price on (actually, its offered, not solicited by the buyer). I dont' really sell pups, so most of this is just philosophy- but.. when I do breed, I expect to produce dogs with the desire to work (I don't "guarantee" ability, just "keeness" that will, if proved adequate to be trained, have a minimum of useful years. I see the big four (as previously listed) as my responsibility as a breeder to guarantee. Not that it wont' happen, but that the buyer will be compensated for their time and effort to train up such a dog, only to have that dog, at the peak of its good training, be diagnosed with an illness that renders it useless or severely limits the time it would be useful. I do expect alot from the people who take one of my pups, one of those expectations is that the pup, if proved out as a youngster to have keenness and talent, be trained and brought up to a high degree of of working ability. If I receive payment for the pup, I think its my responsibility to ensure that if the people cannot work the keen pup due to genetic disease, that the price is refunded or another pup is given to replace the defective pup. I think its a give/take relationship. I breed for myself only, I may not breed again for years, but it does not help my breeding decisions to give or sell pups to people who just want a pet. I am grateful to those who have my pups that will do everything they can to prove them out.. the least I can do is compensate them if a genetic illness makes their efforts fruitless. I am casually looking for a pup now, I would expect that if I put in 2+ years of training (perhaps not after age 4-5) that a genetic illness not make my own training efforts meaningless. I also would expect that I would have something to train, maybe not the next National Finalist, but a keen pup that won't quit under normal circumstances. I would want to treat those who pay for a prospect the same way I would want to be treated.

 

 

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Jaime R. Green

http://www.hometown.aol.com/smokjbc/SmokinJbc.html

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Guest Karen Rabbitt

Bill wrote:

 

It seems like you're asking a breeder to guarantee things that are beyond his or her control.

********

 

In part I agree with you, however, someone should not be breeding that can't back their "product".

 

*******

Given that we don't really understand the genetics of hip dysplasia, and we know that there are at least some environmental factors involved in whether the disease is expressed, it seems strange to me that people ask for a guarantee that the pup will be free of it.

*****

 

Hmm, this is disagree with. While I understand that CHD is a "poly" what environmental factors are you speaking of? An accident could cause a problem, but that in itself wouldn't be CHD.

 

*******

Similarly, our understanding of epilepsy (which is a tiny problem within the breed, and hardly worth mentioning as a genetic issue) is quite murky. It does seem to be more prevalent in some lines, but it is not a breedwide problem by any means.

**********

 

Wrong, IMO. Genetics should be a concern for everyone. Walk through the local rescue in your area, see the "breed wide problem". While epilepsy may not be seen on the trial field don't think that it doesn't exist and isn't a problem. How many dogs are put down that you're not aware of due to epilepsy? If we were to blow it off as "not a breed wide problem" it will take hold and we'll be sorry. It's more of a problem than you know....ask any rescuer. Maybe that's why you assume it's not a problem, the effected ones are getting turned into rescue, sold as pets, or whatever..they are not showing up on the "field".

 

*****

Even breeding two dogs that are clear can produce affected pups. (A DNA test for unaffected carriers is supposedly in the not-too-distant future, at which point we will be able to eradicate this disease altogether.)

*******

 

Nope, two clears will not produce an effected one. Now, two carriers will, but not clears. You're right though until we have a DNA marker we can't even tell the clears w/o a test breeding to a positive.

 

*******

and what to do if problems arise is much more important than a guarantee of things that are beyond the breeder's control.

******

 

The things discussed here are within the breeders control. Maybe if many breeders were more frank and truthful about the lines they breed things could get cleaned up.

 

Karen

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Karen,you wrote:

 

>>Maybe if many breeders were more frank and truthful about the lines they breed things could get cleaned up.<<<

 

I've come across breeders (pet breeders) who would flatly deny a "proven genetic faults" such as CEA or CHD.

You also have to look at it from our side of the breeding.

Who do we actually choose as a potential stud dogs?

They are either off from an imported Supreme Champion dogs or our latest National Champion dog or a dog who's known to put those dogs out there. They are proven over and over, every single detailed faults (workwise or healthwise) are wide known amongst the handlers.

 

I could see how it could be frustrating to someone who wants a pup "yesterday" and anything will do but for us,it is very different. Folks are willing to wait years for a pup from certain crosses or they have made up their minds which cross suits them the most.

 

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

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Karen,

 

There are both genetic and non-genetic forms of canine epilepsy, and it's next to impossible to tell one from the other. How does that put epilepsy within the breeder's control?

 

Similarly, if you cross OFA excellent and OFA good dogs, you'll still get some CHD. I think the stats for all dogs (not specifically Border collies) is 12.5 percent. Again, no guarantee.

 

The environmental factors that play on whether a dog with "bad" hips develops joint disease and becomes symptomatic are diet, exercise, injuries, etc. There are dogs with "bad" hips that seem to get through their lives relatiely pain-free, and some dogs with excellent hips spend days laid up with joint problems. I personally know dogs that are examples of both.

 

And your comment on CEA points out a good distinction. When I said "clear" I meant that the parents had passed an examination by a DAVCO diplomate. These dogs are not symptomatic, but are not necessarily genetically clear. Test breedings to a known carrier will tell us that the other partner is a carrier if affected pups are produced. Short of that, there's no way to know.

 

Are you suggesting that every breeding candidate first be bred to a known CEA carrier so that we can see whether it's a carrier or not? That doesn't sound like responsible breeding to me. In fact, it sounds like a very good way to create more CEA affected dogs than otherwise.

 

I should make it clear that I am not against discussing any and all of these issues. But in nature, there are no guarantees, and as such, I would not provide one if I were breeding a litter, because I think that to do so is creating a false impression that breeders can, in fact, absolutely control these diseases when in fact they cannot, no matter what you think.

 

I would certainly offer to serve as backup if the dog became more than the owners could handle -- for any reason -- and I would refund the puppy price if they returned the pup to me. Whether it was "defective" or not.

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

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Guest Karen Rabbitt

Inci writes:

 

I could see how it could be frustrating to someone who wants a pup "yesterday" and anything will do but for us,it is very different. Folks are willing to wait years for a pup from certain crosses or they have made up their minds which cross suits them the most.

**********

 

You're absolutely right Inci. Many folks are willing to wait. I saw the original questions as just that. Not someone wanting a pup "now". I know, I am one that waited a few years for the one I have. I am glad I did but prior to that (with a different pup) I learned a lesson. Not only was I hood winked I was lied to. It wasn't until "after" I sent the pup back (which I got "nothing" in return for and asked for nothing either - as he had OCD, CHD and a wicked a** temperment) that others started to tell me their "tales" of offspring from either parent.

 

Karen

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Guest Karen Rabbitt

Bill,

 

How does that put epilepsy within the breeder's control?

******

 

It may not be in their control, but they can be forthright about it and tell potential buyters and let them decide.

 

With CHD you can at least check and true, there is no guarantee that a pup will be or not be affected a breeder can replace or refund depending upon the severity. Plenty of dogs can be very useful and have CHD but should they be bred?

 

I don't think the guarantee the pack42 was asking about meant "guaranteed not to be afflicted" I took it to mean the breeder to stand behind what they produced in one means or another.

 

*******

And your comment on CEA points out a good distinction. When I said "clear" I meant that the parents had passed an examination by a DAVCO diplomate. These dogs are not symptomatic, but are not necessarily genetically clear.

******

 

But should this cross produce an affected pup then we know the parents, both, are not clear but carriers.

 

*******

Are you suggesting that every breeding candidate first be bred to a known CEA carrier so that we can see whether it's a carrier or not? That doesn't sound like responsible breeding to me. In fact, it sounds like a very good way to create more CEA affected dogs than otherwise.

******

 

Oh not at all. I am thinking though that something along the lines of what ISDS does would go a long way to help irradicate the disease in the US.

 

I think you and I are looking at the term guarantee in two different lights. If a breeder had to replace or refund for every pup they produced that was a ggenetically "defective" within thier control, they'd wisen up to the fact that their line has trouble in it instead of sticking their head in the sand and saying nothing and continuing to breed. Now of course I am speaking of those that mass produce for $$$$ or other accolades.

 

Epilepsy is a problem in the breed by turning our backs on it doesn't make it go away nor does it help the breed.

 

Karen

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Guest C Denise Wall

Karen wrote:

 

"Oh not at all. I am thinking though that something along the lines of what ISDS does would go a long way to help irradicate the disease in the US."

 

Karen,

 

I'm interested to know what makes you continually state our eye policies would be more effective if we followed the lead of ISDS.

 

Are you aware that ABCA eye recommendations and policy are based on advice from the best in the field, including world renown retinal disease specialists and population geneticists?

 

ABCA has been the leading funding source for a DNA test for CEA which will be available within a year or so. The CEA affected rate has remained stable at about 2.3% in this country for many years. We're close to being able to control this genetic disease in this country largely through the efforts of ABCA Registry.

 

 

"Epilepsy is a problem in the breed by turning our backs on it doesn't make it go away nor does it help the breed."

 

Epilepsy is recognized by ABCA as a current health problem. A member of the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee, Mellissa DeMille, a PhD in genetics with specialty training in neurogenetics, is heading the work on this problem.

 

For current info, please go to:

http://www.americanbordercollie.org

 

Look under the "Health and Genetics of the Border Collie" link on the right hand side of the page.

 

Other health information can be found under the link for "Committee reports" - "Hip Committee Report" and "Eye Committee Report".

 

C. Denise Wall, PhD

ABCA Health and Genetics Committee Member

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Karen,

 

Above I defined what a guarantee means to me. What you're proposing, essentially, is a satisfaction guarantee -- that you'll refund money or replace the pup if they aren't happy with some aspect of their pup's health status.

 

When I say that a product is guaranteed against a particular defect, it means that I believe it does not have that defect, nor will it develop that defect over time. There is no way I could honestly say that about a puppy with regard to any genetic disease other than CEA, and, absent test breedings, all I could say is that it is or isn't affected by CEA.

 

That's a major distinction, and one that I think gets lost in the majority of puppy transactions where a guarantee is a concern. People like Bonnie -- trying to be responsible breeders -- say their pups are guaranteed against epilepsy, which creates the impression that they will not have it. And yes, probably 99 percent of them will not have it. Perhaps even fewer will not. But that doesn't help the puppy buyer understand that despite everyone's best efforts, there will be an occasional pup with a genetic defect, and some of those defects may not become apparent until the dog matures. It also doesn't help the puppy buyer understand that an accident can cause siezures that mimic epilepsy.

 

Puppy millers will be puppy millers. There's very little we can do about them. They are experts at evading policies and dodging responsibility. Imposing rules and regulations will simply cause them to stop registering their dogs with the ABCA. Perhaps this would be no great loss, but it doesn't mean they would stop breeding their questionable lines and selling them to pet stores or passersby in the grocery store parking lot.

 

Just curious -- what part of the ISDS policy on CEA do you like? Denise Wall certainly knows that I'm not always a cheerleader for the ABCA's breeding guidelines, but I think they have absolutely gotten it right on their guidelines for CEA.

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

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Last spring I was looking for a little lap dog (I missed my CiCi who would lay on my lap with a paw on my book as I studied). I was considering a yorkie and so started studying up. I had never bought from a breeder before and all of the resources said you should ask about a health guarantee. What I learned as I talked to various breeeders was that their responses told me much more than just whether or not they offered a guarantee. I could tell which ones were puppy mills. The puppy mill people generally made it clear that their only concern was their bottom line and not the welfare of the dog. Breeders that really were concerned about their dogs were knowledgeable about the breed, and were clear that I needed to make the grade as an owner before they would place a pup with me (sounds a bit like some of the folks posting here). As a potential buyer these are the kinds of things to look for from a breeder (knowledge and protection of the animals). You take a certain risk when you bring a pup into your home and you have a certain responsibility. Asking for a health guarantee for me wasn't about making sure that the pup was risk free, but making sure that the breeder wasn't unscrupulous. I didn't understand that until I started asking the questions, though.

 

Candace

 

BTW: I ended up getting my baby from a rescue group; her breed is listed as little black fluffball.

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Bill-

 

I don't quite see how a guarantee means that the puppy buyer thinks the dog is fool-proof for genetic diseases. After all, most guarantees outline some sort of re-imbursement- why bother if the breeder is absolutely sure it won't be a problem?

 

I don't think anyone "has" to have a guarantee- so much is between the breeder and puppy buyer. Most of my pups went to close friends and the only guarantee was for me- that they work them and don't shoot them if they suck- send them back. I don't think it has to be signed in blood and subject to scrutiny by the world. But I do feel that for the average person looking for a pup- a health guarantee does show a breeder that is worried about more than whats going in their pocket. It may not be true across the board, but it would be a case of buyer beware if a breeder was not willing to make a minimum effort to stand behind their pups.

 

 

 

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Jaime R. Green

http://www.hometown.aol.com/smokjbc/SmokinJbc.html

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Jaime,

 

Your "guarantee" sounds like a reasonable one. But it's not actually a guarantee -- it's a contract. It is based on common sense, and a mutual understanding of what the dog is bred for between the breeder and buyer.

 

I'm afraid this is going to degenerate into a discussion of semantics about what a guarantee is (if it hasn't already). My point is that any puppy buyer would do better learning what the real genetic concerns of the breed are and discussing them with a breeder, then running those discussions through his or her thought processes and seeing if they make sense. Then, and only then, can you make an educated choice about a pup.

 

Simply insisting on a guarantee makes me think that this is someone who wants the quick and easy answers, as opposed to someone who is willing to think things through and to try to understand the dog, its breeding, etc. They're probably not the kind of people I'd want to have my pups.

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