My poor pup got bitten :(

[ShellyF]

Out walking today on the sailing club docks with our pup (on a leash) and a visiting mechanic had his dog with him - unleashed. ‘He’s friendly’ he shouted out. Our pup approached (by my side) with his wagging tail and the other dog - an older black lab - was wagging his tail too. I let them continue to say hello and all seemed fine. The visiting dog trotted back down the dock and we followed to chat to our friend. The dogs met again and then the loudest shrieking squealing yelping came out of my pup mouth. I saw the lab had my pups mouth in his and wasn’t letting go. And he wasn’t playing, he was biting aggressively. 

I’m embarrassed to say I can’t remember what happened next. My pup’s squealing seemed to cause me to blank out but my husband said that our pup got free but was still squealing as if in shock and frightened. My husband went and got in front of our pup to block any further attack and I pulled pup away to check him over. I wanted to pick him up and cuddle him but I mustered my most confident voice to reassure him and checked him over. No skin broken. 

Of course the owner didn’t apologise or appear even bothered. His only remark was ‘well he’s never done that before’. 

Although we are unlikely to meet this dog again I want to make sure that I approach the next dog we meet - especially if it’s a black lab - in the right way as for all I know this experience may make my pup wary and potentially aggressive towards other black dogs now and I have painstakingly been successfully socialising him up to this point. 

Any words of wisdom for me please!

 

[CptJack]

I will say that while this is scary and bad, the dog wasn't actually biting aggressively.  Roughly, scaring the crap out of your puppy, but if a lab was attacking aggressively you wouldn't have a puppy left, much less 'no skin broken'. 

Breath, be careful going forward, don't allow your puppy to greet strange dogs for more than about 3 seconds or at all when on leash, be confident or fake it for your pup's sake.

[ShellyF]

Thanks and I take your point as no blood was drawn. The lab certainly wasn’t playing though!

 

[GentleLake]

I can't help but wonder if the Lab was telling your puppy off for being fresh.

Dogs are completely in control of the severity of their bites. If the Lab had had any intention of actually harming your pup, it would have. I'm really guessing it was either a warning or a reprimand and your puppy acted like most babies do and had a little tantrum.

[CptJack]

52 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

I can't help but wonder if the Lab was telling your puppy off for being fresh.

Fogs are completely in control of the severity of their bites. If the Lab had had any intention of actually harming your pup, it would have. I'm really guessing it was either a warning or a reprimand and your puppy acted like most babies do and had a little tantrum.

Yeah, pretty much my thought.  Puppies also tend to over-react.  Especially if they don't have experience with corrections from adult dogs and tend to be rude little jerks who 'deserve' the telling off. 

 

 

[ShellyF]

I hear what you’re saying. I wondered the same. Our little guy is used to other dogs and serious play fighting though. My husband and I saw the aggression from the lab. We are usually the ones telling other people that things are not as serious as they seem but we do have experience with aggressive dogs and know the difference between a dog saying ‘back off pup’ and a nasty interaction. 

Anyhow, my question was more about dealing with the situation of him meeting his next dog - especially one that looks similar. I know I could easily send the wrong signals. TIA

[gcv-border]

28 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

. Our little guy is used to other dogs and serious play fighting though.

Anyhow, my question was more about dealing with the situation of him meeting his next dog - especially one that looks similar. I know I could easily send the wrong signals. TIA

So your pup is used to 'serious play fighting'. OK, but maybe he tried it, or started this 'serious play fighting', and the experienced lab wasn't having anything to do with it and corrected him.

It may be a non-issue, and you don't know until the next time your pup sees a similar dog. If he does show fear, or fear aggression, IMHO I would start densensitizing him.

[ShellyF]

Yes our pup has experienced serious play fighting e.g. he’s been on the other end of an adult dog’s overly rambuctious advances without yelping. He was standing wagging his tail when the lab went for him. My only thought is that it was at a point where we were nearer the boat that his owner was on and may have thought he needed to protect it.  Public dock so not appropriate but that was the owner’s issue - not the dog’s. It was a nasty interaction and a long one. It’s always the dog owners that give away clues. He clearly thought he had control of his dog in order to let it off leash, his words indicated that the dog hadn’t done it before but his actions said it all - no surprise at what his dog had done, no apology, no attempt to get off the boat and get the dog under control and when he called the dog the dog ignored him but eventually backed away which in hindsight I now realise is when my husband marched towards the dog. 

Anyhow i’m just venting. I’m going to take our pup to a quiet ‘on leash’ country park today where we normally meet two or three dogs and i’ll see how he reacts. 

[jami74]

12 hours ago, ShellyF said:

Although we are unlikely to meet this dog again I want to make sure that I approach the next dog we meet - especially if it’s a black lab - in the right way as for all I know this experience may make my pup wary and potentially aggressive towards other black dogs now and I have painstakingly been successfully socialising him up to this point. 

Your poor puppy

And poor you!

We've had a few interactions that haven't been fantastic (although nothing like you've described) and what I've learnt from it is that even if an interaction appears to go well initially I'll now keep on moving to keep the interaction as short as possible. There's been a couple of times when I've thought our puppy had made a friend, then the other dog got grumpy seemingly for no reason, so now it's a quick hello and move on. I also try to avoid narrow paths. That way our puppy has plenty of opportunity to give another dog a wide berth if he wishes, or to get away if he is not enjoying the interaction. I watch him very closely and can see the difference now between wanting to be chased and wanting to get away, if he wants to get away I get him away. 

Our puppy has learnt to be a lot more respectful of other dogs. Initially he'd wag his tail, quick sniff and then jump on their heads. After a few corrections from other dogs he seems to be able to read other dogs better. It now looks more like "Do you want to be friends?" rather than "I'm coming to get you ready or not!". He seems to know which dogs to approach and which to avoid. We see a lot of black labs, some he'll approach happily, others he'll take a wide berth. I'm not sure how he knows because they all look the same to me. I'm sure your puppy won't think 'Oh no, a black lab!', there might have been a subtle communication from that dog before he bit your puppy which your puppy will know in future means back off quickly. We went through a little stage, maybe a week, where ours didn't want to greet other dogs so we went round them all. i did not force him to approach other dogs. I worried a bit but then it passed. Our puppy seems a bit intimidated by very big dogs and will be super calm and cautious, loves medium size dogs and wants to play with them all and a bit wary of small dogs, especially ones with very short noses that breath noisily or googly staring eyes.

Yesterday on the lead we walked past an owner with two off lead dogs, the first dog was a golden retriever type and they sniffed and wagged tails as we passed. The second dog a few steps later was a very small Jack Russell which he completely ignored. I was surprised because it looked like he hadn't even noticed it, he just carried on walking and looking forwards next to me, it was near the end of our walk and he was tired. Another few steps later the Jack Russell came running after us snarling. It looked aggressive rather than playful and my puppy tucked his tail between his back legs and was trying to hide behind me to get away. I've not seen him look scared like that before. The owner eventually managed to catch it and carried it away without a word. No idea what it was about my puppy that provoked the Jack Russell, I wondered if he was starting to smell like a male dog and if that would provoke reactions from other intact males.

 

[terrecar]

It may very well have been an overly harsh correction. I've seen them, and I've also seen dogs that were more tolerant and better at correcting a rambunctious pup.  But that's a human judgement; dogs don't think of things like unintended consequences.

If the pup was in the dog's face, a correction would not surprise me, and in my judgement would not be inappropriate. Or, let's say the Lab was suffering from arthritis in his cervical disk area. Dogs with this problem are more likely to correct an approaching pup, even when it doesn't appear to be appropriate. 

However, a correction from an adult dog is not usually a lengthy affair. 

I wouldn't necessarily characterize the pup's reaction as 'bratty' if the screaming was fear induced. I would consider the pup's behavior bratty if it were given a warning and did not back off. There's no way to know from what you've typed if that's the case. 

However, I'm fairly certain the Labrador inhibited his bite, which is lucky for your pup. The thing to do now is try to keep from allowing your own anxiety to travel down the lead when you encounter strange dogs. But protect your pup.

My own opinion is that, unless I know the other dog, I will not allow a pup to greet an adult dog. Socializing doesn't necessarily mean interacting; it can simply mean becoming accustomed to the presence of other dogs that are either on lead or within the owner's control. My strategy is to allow a pup to interact only with dogs I know.

I avoid off leash dogs in general, unless I think the owner has a clue. I don't wish to deal with dog owners with a sense of entitlement allowing their dog to approach people and other dogs who do not wish to be bothered.

[ShellyF]

These replies are super helpful. 

Thanks so much! 

[urge to herd]

I'm pretty good at reading Gibb's body language. He's ok with a polite greeting, pretty darn tolerant of puppies, and really not ok at all with canine rudeness. I can see/feel him stiffen up when a dog barrels in or gets too close and stares. I say cheerfully, 'that's all good, let's go now' or something similar.

Frequently the other dog's owner is saying the 'he just wants to be friendly!'  Nod, smile, keep walking.

And I've been on the other end of that particular leash. Shoshone was very picky about other dogs, and she did NOT tolerate puppies. Ever. I  kept an eagle eye out for puppies, and indeed other dogs. 

Ruth & Gibbs

[ShellyF]

I took advice noted above. Went to walk in quiet park today. Met a lady sat on a park bench with two dogs at full stretch on flexi. ‘Oh they are friendly’ she said. I kept my pup back and explained I was observing as pup had got bitten yesterday. She made no attempt to control her full stretch dogs who were now growling. We walked on and she said as we left ‘it’s only because they’re on a leash’!

On the positive side, our pups wasn’t afraid to approach with tail wagging although he did step back when they growled. He was also happy to obey me as we walked on. 

So at least I know he’s not been completely scared off dogs - which is good  

[GentleLake]

29 minutes ago, ShellyF said:

She made no attempt to control her full stretch dogs who were now growling. We walked on and she said as we left ‘it’s only because they’re on a leash’!

SMH Eejit!

[D'Elle]

My thought is that the lab was correcting your puppy's behavior for some reason, as that is often done by the adult dog grabbing the shout of the younger dog. Sounds a bit overly firm to me, but we don't know why....as was suggested that lab may have physical issues or simply be getting on in age and have less patience. Remember also that sometimes border collies' play styles are sufficiently different from that of other dogs that the other dogs may react negatively. All that aside, I agree that if the lab were actually being aggressive there would have been damage. I really hate it when something like this happens. It terrifies me to have my dog potentially at risk even if there's no damage done. 

I never, ever allow my dog to approach a strange dog who is not on a leash. I pick up my dog and go away or if I cannot pick the dog up I will simply turn in another direction. It's just too risky when the strange dog is not under direct control.

[ShellyF]

You are right Re strange dog not on leash. Because we were at a private boat club and the visitor was with someone we know well I guess it lulled us into a false sense of security. Lesson learned! 

[coffeegirl]

D'Elle is right, you just can't trust off-leash dogs. Take another route that avoids them. For one thing, there's a big power inequity even if you dog wasn't...a puppy. Your dog was on a leash, the other one wasn't, right? That's not a good situation. But that's how you learn, so good on you. 

But this is why it's so rude to have dogs off leash in public. It teaches them they're king of the world, and the other dogs will never come after them (because they're leashed). 

More importantly, let me just say I feel you on the owner's response. I HATE THAT stupid nonchalance. I get that they're surprised and embarrassed, but grow a spine and take some responsibility, you jerks. You don't know that their dog is actually friendly, no matter what they say. You don't know the dog. So when their dog lurches at your dog, it scares the crap out of YOU (not to mention your dog), and that is a violation worth apologizing profusely for. Same goes for these, "friendly" dogs that come bounding at full speed up to your leashed dog. You get to think, "oh, do I have to try to kick off this strange dog now, or is it going to eat my dog?" for half a second. That sucks, and the owner should apologize sincerely. Every time. They need to stop letting their dogs off leash and scaring people--it's so selfish. We share the public space and none of this is acceptable.

Now if you're at a dog convention or something, and you know off-leash dogs are part of the equation, then fine. You're prepared. (Or you know to avoid it.) But that is not a sailing dock. That is not a public sidewalk. That is not a public no-off-leash park.

My dog has her friends, and everyone else we just give a wide berth until we know them better.

[ShellyF]

Thanks @coffeegirl

Wise words indeed. A few days after the incident we went out on a strictly ‘dogs on a leash’ trail. Most of the dogs we encountered were off leash. Most walked on by but while I had Merlin on a leash and in a calm down a big lab strolled over. I asked the owner to keep her dog away please and she called him. Thankfully he obeyed. 

Another family walked by and I noticed a dog standing about 20’ behind them, stopped. ‘Is that your dog?’ I asked. They said ‘oh yeah, he’s scared of rocks and paths. Just walk on by him’. I said I wouldn’t. I explained that our dog had recently been bitten and that we would calmly wait for them to sort the situation out. The woman sighed and sent her husband back to get the dog, like it was all my fault! Grrrrh!

[coffeegirl]

Yeah, you're going to feel really vulnerable while he's little. My pup is almost 8 months now, and I'll say it gets better when they're a little bigger and you don't feel so exposed. When they're bigger, you can feel more peeved when people try to say crap like that (because they're being selfish and making you uncomfortable with their, "deal with it" attitude) and not so panicked and desperate. And of course it's hard, because you do have to get the little pups out and exposed to things, but all you really want to do is avoid this nonsense.

But it really does get better. Hang in there. You're a good dog mama and this period where you have to growl so much and be vigilant is only so intense temporarily.

PS--When they start to get a little bigger, you also start to feel more secure that every little thing won't imprint them for life, because you start to see their true personality emerging, and how resilient it is (or where exactly it's unique). And that's a relief, too. (But it's not there until it is.)

[Flora & Molly]

I don't understand why people have to be so rude or annoyed if you ask them to leash their dog and explain the situation to them. 
But then again, I don't understand a lot of rude behaviour 

I mean, it shouldn't be a hassle to put a leash on your dog. I prefer to have my dog loose, but I always leash her when I see a dog who is on leash. Even if it is in an off-leash area.
I always figure there must be a reason that a dog is on a leash. Be it aggression or just training purposes. So the owner probably doesn't want my dog to come up and greet them. 

Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir  

 

@ShellyF I'm glad you are standing up for your pup. That's always difficult to do, especially if people are being rude about it. You are doing the right thing!

 

[ShellyF]

Thanks