graciesmom Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 I have a 7.5 year old bc (Grace) that we picked up in a pet store as a pup. I wasn't looking for a pup and typically wouldn't have bought one in a petstore, but she was underage (not yet six weeks), sick and in need of surgery. In retrospect, I should have asked them to pay me..... Anyway, I knew that bc's were active dogs and started training for disc sports as soon as she healed from her surgery and was off antibiotics. Long story short, the first 18 months of her life she was in and out of the vet and is still pretty neurotic about leaving the house. Anyway, I finally was ready to enter her first competition and was looking for a regional event when she took a fall in the yard. She seemed fine a little later, but I kept thinking there was something wrong with the way she was walking. She started taking frequent breaks during practice and quit doing her beautiful turns. I didn't pursue the competition with her because she was clearly not capable any longer. We have always lived in smaller cities and our vets kept saying that she seemed ok, but never took any x-rays. HD was not diagnosed until it had progressed to the point that she needs total hip replacement. Since I just quit my job to return to school we can't do the surgery. She still loves to play frisbee and fetch and anything else we offer, but I am worried about how much to allow. The vet says she can do whatever she wants as long as we keep the play-time short. I worry that she still tries to jump and sometimes overdoes it out of a sense of competition with our other dogs. Any suggestions (other that pain medication) on pain and risk management would be very much appreciated. Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 My neighbor has a rottweiler with displasia. That dog gets around pretty well. I think that they kind of get a feel for what they can and cannot do. He limps but he has been like that for years and I think he is 9 now. He doesn't run but he walks all over the backyard. And if he gets too stiff he just goes and lays down. Border collies tend to have a lot of heart and can overdo so I would be kind of careful and watch out for him. My little Ellie is crippled and she gets around OK. She runs on three legs and walks on four. But if she over does she kind of backs off and takes it easy for a while. You can give them an aspirin (not any of the other over the counter pain relievers like Tylenol or Alleve or any of that stuff. Just plain ole aspirin. And that seems to help. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Suelee Robbe Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 I am a little confused. Your dog had a permanent chronic condition and you don't want to consider pain medication??? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 Suelee, I guess I should wait and let Candace speak for herself...but I'm getting really tired of folks either not reading things completely, or jumping the gun and assuming things, on these boards. What Candace SAID was, "any suggestions (other than pain med) on pain and risk management would be appreciated." She did NOT say that she did not want to consider pain medication!! My take on it is: she knows about pain meds, is probably giving them, and just wants MORE info. Eh, Candace? (Ah, the joys of impersonal communication....) diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciesmom Posted August 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 Diane, Thanks, yes I do know about pain meds and give both aspirin and rimadyl as needed and prescribed by the vet. I also give glucosomine/chondroiton. I am looking for other information like activity level or massage techniques that I can do at home, etc... Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted August 15, 2002 Report Share Posted August 15, 2002 Please check out the rimadyl. I am not a vet and certainly no expert. But I have heard that rimadyl can cause severe liver or pancreas problems - like fatal side effects. I don't know how good my source was on this but it would be worth looking into as there are other good medications. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Suelee Robbe Posted August 15, 2002 Report Share Posted August 15, 2002 Ahhh, I understand. The reason why I ask is there are new, better pain meds available. A colleague of mine just finished a clinical trial with Celecoxib., a cox2 inhibitor. I would bring that suggestions to your vet. The reason why this drug is so nice is it lasts so long. One pill lasts all day and the difference in these dogs is really wonderful. Here is an article that may answer some of your questions, but it is over 1 year old. http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proce...000/PR00189.htm Your veterinarian probably is not aware of this yet as the recommendation has not made it into the literature. Interestingly, they did many of the toxicity studies on dog to get the drug approved for use in humans so we have a good understanding on how to use it. I am talking as an owner that manages a chronic hip dog. Celebrex is a wonderful thing. Have your veterinarian call the ISU orthopedic team for a consult and he/she should get the info need to prescribe this drug. The other very important thing to do is keep you dog thin, as skinny as possible. I weigh my dog on a monthly basis, and if she gets over 32 lbs I cut back on her food. You can't feed these dogs free choice because they don't exercise enough. You should be able to feel ribs, spine and hip bones easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted August 15, 2002 Report Share Posted August 15, 2002 As many people know I do flyball with my dogs. I have heard of many people that do dog sports (agility and flyball) with their dogs that have hip dysplasia. In fact there is a dog on my team that has it and the doctors say he has SEVERE HIP DYSPLASIA and they aren't sure how he is even walking, much less running as fast as he does. Plus this dog had knee surgery awhile back. When the owners moved to MD they were not racing for about 3-4 months, in that time there HD dog's hips started causing a lot of problems, including muscle atrophy from lack of use. Since he started back up he is doing much better. A friend has a dog with HD that does flyball in FL and up until they decided the dog needed his hips xrayed at the age of 8, you would never know this dog had HD. The dog still does not show signs. All dogs will be different in there pain tolerance. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU SHOULD DO DOGGIE SPORTS or the such. You just need to figure out how much your dog can handle exercise wise. Some HD dogs can handle a full day of work/playing and others can barely walk across the room. I would also suggest taking your dog swimming as much as possible. It is less stressful on the joints but gives them great exercise. Kim Centreville,VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciesmom Posted August 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Thanks for the responses. I have a few more questions now. What do you know about side effects on the celecoxib. Vet does regular liver checks with the rimadyl. I have chronic back problems myself and I give pain medication the way I take it: just when necessary for relief and well being. As to keeping the weight off...very difficult question here. We just moved last year from a place where there were lots of squirrels who were apparently no match for our disabled fat dog. Our Gracie went from a pretty 34 pounds to a portly 70. We have managed to get 7 pounds off since we moved and left those lethargic squirrels in the west texas dust, but how do i get the weight off? I don't think she will lose any more and we barely feed her now. Do you know of any flyball groups in the northern Kentucky/southwest Ohio region? I have looked on the web, but have not had luck finding any or getting response from e-mails? I do think Grace could do it - she is still very active and eagerly learns new stuff? Final question - anybody know anything about doggie massage? Thank for the help. You guys rock. Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 A lot of flyball teams will not accept dogs that are really overweight. I am starting my own team in my area and an overweight dog will be allowed to train but I will not allow them to compete until thay have lost the weight. I would talk to a vet or nutritionist for dogs about the weight. Being that overweight will make the hips a lot worse and cause extra pain. You need to make sure to give your dog exercise but not too much at the beginning, you want avoid overexercising an overweight dog with HD. Work up to more exercise. How much food are you giving and what kind? You may need to switch to a lower calorie food and cut back even more. My dogs only get 1 cup a day, fed twice a day. You might be amazed at how well your dog will do just loosing the weight. But checkout the Flyball Homepage website at www.flyballdogs.com and check under teams. If there is a team near you, they will be listed. You can also join the email list and post a question to see if there are people in your area and how to contact them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Okay, Diane thanks for making the effort to understand Candace even though you might have misunderstood Sue Lee in the process. Poor you! That's something I would do, but as you said, "Oh the joys of impersonal communication." Sue Lee. Thanks for the great info and link on pain medication. You are such a wonderful resource. Is there a reason you didn't respond to my thread on whelping? I'm just wondering if you were busy and didn't see it, which is completely understandable,or if you thought the topic was problematic or inappropriate somehow. I ask because I am trying to understand the whys and wherefores of sharing health info on the web, not to put you on the spot. Candace, good luck with your hurtin' pup. Just a thought. Is there a place you can let her swim? ------------------ Margaret retired terrierwoman, border collie wannabe drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Margaret, I'm sure Suelee can speak for herself, but in case she doesn't get here right away, I thought I'd point out that she's a large animal vet and may not have whelped enough puppies to want to make a statement on that topic. Or she may have other reasons entirely.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Getting that weight off her will be the best thing you can possibly do for her. Suppose your ideal weight was 130 and you weighed over 260 pounds -- that's the ratio we're talking about here. Think your joints would hurt? You bet they would. It's not easy to do, and it will take a long time to get it off an arthritic dog. We went through a major weight loss with an Australian shepherd (she was pushing 90 pounds and should have been about 55). The first thing we did was banish all dog treats. She was very clever in getting one or two treats a day from each of the six people who were then living in our household. We also eliminated all table scraps. She got her dog food, and she got nothing else. Then we started walking her. First it was a gentle mile or so each day, and then we worked it up to a bit longer, and then to twice a day. Now, two years later, you would never know that she was nearly debilitated by arthritis. She is playful and active at 11 years old. She is not svelte, but she is not fat either. We continue to try to keep her weight in line, and we provide her with glucosamine and chondriotin, and keep her exercise level constant. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Yes yes yes....put Gracie on a diet....it will help her tremendously. I have a 5yr old German Shepherd that was diagnosed with CHD in her right hip as a 2yr. When she was 2 yrs, I let her weight creep up to 75# from a lean weight of 62#. I noticed that she didn't jump up like before, she was favoring her right rear leg and could barely get up the morning after exercising. I had horrible visions of hip surgery and a shortened life. I immediately put her on a diet and reduced her food. Where before I estimated her portions by eye, I began using a measuring cup to feed her exactly 2 cups of kibble a day (my pet BC only gets 1 cup a day). I looked for the lowest fat kibble I could find (Nutro Lite...some senior foods are good too). The diet made her feel like she was starving (she still thinks she's starving), so to ease the transition I added canned pumpkin to her food ...it is a good nonfat filler. I also put her on glucosamine supplements (I use Synovi-MSM). And, as Bill said, no treats or table scraps....only kibble and diet appropriate food. I brought her down from 75# to 60#. I can feel her hip bones (not prominent but definitely visible) and there is a good cut at her waistline. I can feel her ribs and backbone with very gentle pressure. You would never believe she was the same dog. Three years ago she was an old lady of 2 yrs and could barely get herself up to chase a ball or dominate my Border Collies. Now at 5 yrs, she races around, accompanies the BCs and I on bike rides and hikes, jumps for balls (I don't try to do this often) and shows no ill effects the next morning after hard exercise. Until recently, I had her in agility (we quit because of my lack of interest, not hers...she was very high drive about it). I can't say enough about the importance of keeping weight off a dog.....especially a dog at risk of CHD, arthritis or other skeletol/joint problems. At this point, I really don't believe that she will ever need hip surgery (knock on wood). She acts younger now than she did at 2 yrs. Good luck. I hope your dog feels better soon. Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciesmom Posted August 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Alright...Alright.... You guys win. Yet another food reduction. We already work about 30 min to an hour in the evenings with the frisbee, but I will add a walk to the routine (wouldn't hurt me either). I probably needed to reduce the frisbee time any way. Maybe she can work me up to a jog. Did I mention that she has lost 7 lbs? Thanks for the help. Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted August 16, 2002 Report Share Posted August 16, 2002 Candace, What are you feeding Gracie? What is the fat and protein on the label? I've found that you can only reduce food so far and the dogs really feel starved. It is better to reduce food somewhat but focus more on reducing fat. As I said before, you can add non-fat filler like canned pumpkin which will give the dog the sensation of feeling like something is in its stomach. I've been there...it's hard having those pleading eyes and whining saying "FEED ME!" Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted August 17, 2002 Report Share Posted August 17, 2002 I'll second Elizabeth's advice on the pumpkin...she posted it here awhile back and my wife uses it on her Beth - who if she isn't working hard puts a couple pounds on her butt FAST... Beth loves the pumpkin, Mary cuts her food in half and makes up the bulk with the canned pumpkin (not pie filling) and Beth drops those pounds in no time at all... Now, if somebody would keep me in a kennel and feed me pumpkin... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 18, 2002 Report Share Posted August 18, 2002 I?ll second (or third or whatever) the advice about the pumpkin ? though you can use other veggies as well. (There?s a debate about cooked vs raw/grated). I used to be able to manage my BC boy?s weight with weight reduction kibble and a lot of mashed cooked vegies as filler - he had a nice full tummy, his coat was lovely, and he was still happily competing in obedience (and even jumping dog for fun) at 12 and a half. One of the good things about using veggies as filler is that the bowl looks more like a ?normal? meal, so you feel less like you?re starving the dog!! Do you have any doggie swim centers handy? I took my two oldies to one when I was visiting in another state, and they had a wonderful time. It?s non-weight-bearing controlled exercise, and they have to work harder than just walking. It was a long narrow warm pool and the dogs were on lead swimming along the edges with the owner just walking around the edge. (I saw one lady ? a regular ? reading a book while she walked around ? seemed a bit risky to me ? I would end up in the pool with the dogs if I tried that!!) Well done on the 7 lb reduction already. It?s a nice start ? and the more weight she gets off, the more she?ll be able to exercise etc. etc. By the way, will she eat raw carrot/apple/celery/zucchini etc.? My dogs just loved things like that, and it?s a nice lo-cal treat for when those melting brown eyes start working on you. ------------------ Barb [This message has been edited by Tassie (edited 08-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Suelee Robbe Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Candace, The current research suggests that celexcoxib is considered one of the safer nosteriodial's out there because of it's particular affinity for cox 2 receptors. As far as the appropriateness for your dog, it is important to have your veterinarian help you decide that question. It is great to hear you are going to work on reducing Gracie's weight. That really will be more effective than any fancy new pain med. Margaret, Julie was quite right. I have no direct knowledge pertaining to the question you had asked. I have never even watched a normal whelping on a dog, and can only lay claim to doing one k-9 c-section in practice over 5 years ago. I am sure there are several vets that read these boards. Most of them work long hard hours in practice and spend several hours a week answering questions from their own clients. I am a little bit different as my job is in academia, but my participation in this section will still be sporadic at best. My productivity is not measured by the number of questions I answer over the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciesmom Posted August 27, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Just an update... We dropped Grace at the kennel last week and had them go ahead and reduce the food. She now gets about a cup of old fart dog food (don't panic, it isn't really co-op dog food) and actually lost a little more while we were gone. I cut her frisbee time and started walking (last night was our first). I was afraid she would be mad about the loss of frisbee time but since she now gets it more often in shorter bits and gets to walk all by herself without the other dogs she acts like she is now the princess of the house. Thanks for the tip on the celecoxib, I will check with the vet next trip. Now that Grace is walking me every evening, maybe she could cut back on my food... Candace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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