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Guest borderkatahdin
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Guest PrairieFire

Hey Elizabeth -

 

That sounds like one way to do it.

 

But doesn't it seem, well, condescending, to assume that people are so stupid, unconcerned, or uncaring so as to not want healthy pets...?

 

This isn't a putdown of your particular vet at all, but general thoughts on an "industry" that views us all as stupid children needing to be "guided" in our best interests...

 

To me, it is a bit of an unsettling concept. But I guess that's just me...

 

Trailrider - very interesting article, thanks. The references to "informed consent" I think apply to what I feel so strongly about...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 08-02-2002).]

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Bill,

I personally don't feel the need to be managed in such a way.....however....

 

After working in rescue for awhile, you begin to realize just how stupid and uncaring and childish people can be about their pets. Bill, your perspective is distorted because you are very knowledgeable about proper pet care...it makes sense that "guidance" by the pet care industry would offend you. The vast majority of people are clueless and need their vet to tell them what is "right". Many people who have pets just don't think they are worth the expense of proper care....throw some Old Roy kibble out the door from time to time and sprinkle some flea powder on Spot if you (not the dog) get a flea bite. Heart worm meds...wa's that?

 

My rescue group constantly has to remind itself not to assume what people do and do not know about proper care of animals. Heck, you see it here on this very Board...most people know very little and are looking for guidance.

 

For your own purpose (and mine), do what you think is right.

 

Elizabeth

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Guest PrairieFire

Oh Cholla - in regards to annual vaccinations and possible problems -

 

From the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, vol. 207 Aug 15, 1995:

 

"In the past, it was believed that annual vaccination would not hurt and would probably help most animals. However concerns about side effects have begun to change this attitude. One disadvantage to over-vaccinating is cost. The client is paying for something with no effect or with the potential for an adverse reaction. I believe that adverse effects are increasing because we are putting more and more components into these animals .......There is a real concern that vaccines may predispose certain genetically susceptible individuals to immune-mediated disease. The more antigens we administer, the higher the potential for hyper-sensitivity. Type 1 is IgE mediated; type 2 cytotoxic antibody mediated; type 3 immune-mediated, type 4 cellular mediated. All of these hypersensitivies are natural parts of the immune response, but they cause a certain amount of tissue damage. In many cases it is impossible to show a direct connection between damage and a vaccine, since it is the accumulation of many antigens over many years that results in clinically evident disease."

 

Conventianal and traditional.

 

And published 7 YEARS ago...

 

Well, Elizabeth, I understand what you are saying - but still think proper education and information to be more valuable, more helpful, and certainly more respectful, than "tricking" folks into proper beahviour...

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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Oh boy guys don't get me going on this one..it boils down to MONEY!

 

Everyone needs to be an informed consumer and NOT afraid to challange a vet or a doctor for that matter. I'm totally with Bill G. on this one..

 

Sadly alot of vets and doctors make decisions based on money..Lucky my vets don't. Vaccines are a big money maker for them, relatively cheap and easy to give. Easy money.

 

A few months back when I lost my aussie..at the emergency clinic the vet wanted to operate right away and start fluids etc. Now this dog was unresponsive, had bled out and was in shock. Needless to say when I asked him if he was nuts he let it be known what he thought of me. When my regular vet looked at the report he just shook his head. He told me that if I had hit one more red light on the way I would have arrived with a dead dog. That if I had gone along with the er vet I would of had a $1500. bill and no dog.

 

Now on to doctors (I told you not to get me started) a few years back a horse bit the end of my finger off. At the er the dr. asked me who was with me..when I told him I had drove myself he said that I needed to call someone, as they were going to have to take me in to the operating room and do surgery on the finger. When I told the dr that a simple nerve block done correctly in the finger would be a lot easier (and cheaper) he asked if I was in the medical profession. Guess what they did the nerve block...One hour later I drove myself home.

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Guest Suelee Robbe

This has been a good discussion. There is a "scientific method" (for lack of a better term) to the practice of medicine that has been sweeping the medical profession. It is called Evidence-based Medicine (EBM)

 

This is an actual methodology that takes the very best evidence (research) and combines it with the specific needs of the patient (patient judgement)and the situation (doctor judgement)to come up with the best plan of action. The problem is with this method is it requires time.

 

But in my opinion this is the way that vet med should move. I suspect a large number of veterinarians would not be up to date on the latest evidence on vaccination. In a way, it is their education that has failed them. They were taught dogma medicine. When in fact 50% of what vets were taught 10 years ago is out of date. They lack the skills and the time to keep up to date. My old professors never taught me that what they were telling me and requiring me to memorize would be proven wrong in a few years!

 

With that said, I will make my comments with the usual disclaimer that I am not a small animal vet. I don't even treat my own pooch.

 

The reason why the rabies vaccine is approved for 3 years is because of a rigorous method of research. Other vaccines will behave differently. Lepto vaccines have a short lived immunity and IF they are needed (some parts of the country have sig. problems with lepto) it may be needed even more than once a year. A vaccine schedule that works for one part of the country will be different that another. The problem is acquiring the evidence to help take some of the guess work out of the picture.

 

I have dairy goat herds that have to be on a C&D vaccine once every three months or they start having clostridial problems. I also have sheep range flocks that never get vaccinated for anything. I believe they both are correct until their management changes.

 

But all in all, I think it is great you all are questioning the dogma. My very best clients are ones that question my thought processes.

 

Bill, the Doc that stated they haven't seen a case of distemper reminds me of an experience I had when I was a senior vet student. I had a neurologist tell me that 90% of dogs with seizures have brain tumors. It blew me away. I told my local vet and he scoffed. He said, yep that might be true in a referral practice because they mostly see dogs that won't respond to medication.

Your vet that hasn't seen distemper is a vet that hasn't practiced much or hasn't practiced much on the front lines. My first BC died of distemper when I was in vet school. Local vets do see a lot of it in unvaccinated animals. That is why we need to use careful evidence and not just what we were taught and our own personal experiences.

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