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Many young dogs come in too tight, up the middle, circle at the top and many novices correct them w/o leaving the post. The c-shaped OR results.   The outrun is the sheepdog's psychic motor and it is much easier to screw up than improve.  You can, and some have, pattern train the OR with a fence.  You can, and most farmers do, simply let the dog figure the outrun on its own  because dopey outruns MAKE THINGS HARDER for the dog. Most will get there in the end.

The only effective, safe outrun correction I know is Derek Scrimigeors. It is also useful for redirecting a more complex outrun later.

The instant the dog starts to go wrong, he downs it - sometimes five yards from his feet.  He walks to the dog, saying" Down, down" so dog doesn't restart, gets between the dog and the sheep, blocking the dog and smites the earth on the error side and resends.  If the dog goes wrong further out: repeat.

 

Donald

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On 7/13/2018 at 12:22 PM, Donald McCaig said:

Many young dogs come in too tight, up the middle, circle at the top and many novices correct them w/o leaving the post. The c-shaped OR results.   The outrun is the sheepdog's psychic motor and it is much easier to screw up than improve.  You can, and some have, pattern train the OR with a fence.  You can, and most farmers do, simply let the dog figure the outrun on its own  because dopey outruns MAKE THINGS HARDER for the dog. Most will get there in the end.

The only effective, safe outrun correction I know is Derek Scrimigeors. It is also useful for redirecting a more complex outrun later.

The instant the dog starts to go wrong, he downs it - sometimes five yards from his feet.  He walks to the dog, saying" Down, down" so dog doesn't restart, gets between the dog and the sheep, blocking the dog and smites the earth on the error side and resends.  If the dog goes wrong further out: repeat.

 

Donald

i will try what you are suggesting. today was our first day in the open (meaning a large fenced field, that is all I have available). it was not horrible, I was able to work much better on flanking in both directions and wearing, but the outruns did not go well...very tight. 

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On 7/17/2018 at 2:50 AM, Maja said:

Make a video next time you are in the open :) 

I have two if you have the patience to watch it...the first is in a more open area, the second is in one of the bigger field. in the second video I did not position the camera well so only a portion of the field is visible.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12iXYwpB-taYm6WSo4Wd_6XERU2C8uthI

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12tcIwjAlDmaQ-4J4AbF3AMLQEYprWSMl

yesterday was "come bye day" ;-) , I practiced quite a bit with some difficulties. I also started the daisy wheel exercise to make the outrun wider, but my positioning is not correct. 

I am also starting to recall from sheep, but this has been so far quite difficult.

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31 minutes ago, Donald McCaig said:

If you cannot recall off sheep you have no down and can’t use Derek’s method for widening the outrun. It’s hard to learn everything at once. Donald 

yes, I agree...it took me quite some time to get a lie down, before I could not even stop him. now this seems under control, but recalling from sheep is what I need to focus next before I can go any further with training.

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33 minutes ago, Donald McCaig said:

If you cannot recall off sheep you have no down and can’t use Derek’s method for widening the outrun. It’s hard to learn everything at once. Donald 

also, when I recall from sheep which command is best to use? on the herding dogs book is suggested to use: that'll do, here! but should this command only used at the end of the session? should I use a different one to have him walk away from sheep but still continuing with the training?

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You can use whatever directive you want, including "sweet potato" if that's what turns you on. ;)

Kidding aside, it's remarkable how the dogs learn to differentiate different means for the same words. It's tone of voice, context and I'm sure a bit more, but they just get it.

Your asking this brought to mind something I hadn't thought of for years. My then very young niece had been staying with us for a while and observed us working with the sheep and also saw the dogs at home. One day she blurted out, "aunt roxanne, 'that'll do' means everything!"

 

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14 minutes ago, GentleLake said:

You can use whatever directive you want, including "sweet potato" what turns you on. ;)

Kidding aside, it's remarkable how the dogs learn to differentiate different means for the same words. It's tone of voice, context and I'm sure a bit more, but they just get it.

Your asking this brought to mind something I hadn't thought of for years. My then very young niece had been staying with us for a while and observed us working with the sheep and also saw the dogs at home. One day she blurted out, "aunt roxanne, 'that'll do' means everything!"

 

yep, coming from obedience training, I had quite a bit of difficulties with embracing the nuances of the lie down command...that sometimes it means slow down, or stand there or stop for a moment, or lie down. or use lie down several times, with a soothing voice to keep him in place.... but I already know which one will be my command if will ever get to the point to be able to do a shedding: Dracarys! :D:D

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4 hours ago, Donald McCaig said:

If you cannot recall off sheep you have no down and can’t use Derek’s method for widening the outrun. It’s hard to learn everything at once. Donald 

"If you not recall off sheep you have no down"? I don't see the causality you seem to imply. I have trained dogs trough a phase in which they had a reasonable "down", but at the same time crappy "recall off sheep". For Derek's method a solid down should suffice shouldn't it?

 

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12 hours ago, Smalahundur said:

"If you not recall off sheep you have no down"? I don't see the causality you seem to imply. I have trained dogs trough a phase in which they had a reasonable "down", but at the same time crappy "recall off sheep". For Derek's method a solid down should suffice shouldn't it?

As far as I know, the dog does a bad flank, you down it, and it has to down and stay.  You move to yo a position to where the dog has go towards the handler and away from the sheep in order to widen the flank, and if the dog does not have off-sheep recall, it will go in the opposite direction toward the balance and away from the handler.  .  

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15 hours ago, Luana said:

yep, coming from obedience training, I had quite a bit of difficulties with embracing the nuances of the lie down command...that sometimes it means slow down, or stand there or stop for a moment, or lie down. or use lie down several times, with a soothing voice to keep him in place.... but I already know which one will be my command if will ever get to the point to be able to do a shedding: Dracarys! :D:D

I remember when I was training Bonnie's lie down  with Derek's method, and I was explaining about how the tone of voice is used in some group. It really freaked out the obedience folks :lol: who thought I was ona highway to Total Disaster.  

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3 hours ago, Maja said:

I remember when I was training Bonnie's lie down  with Derek's method, and I was explaining about how the tone of voice is used in some group. It really freaked out the obedience folks :lol: who thought I was ona highway to Total Disaster.  

I have done quite a lot of mistakes since I started this training, one of it was allowing training methods I was not feeling comfortable with,  as I did not know much about working with sheep. the trainer I am working with right now, she has been great to help me with control, but she is very much obedience oriented, this is why I have decided to be pretty much on my own (for bad or for good) and work with her sporadically. it is not easy to find a good border collie trainer, which embraces the methods I see discussed on this board.

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I've never had a good dog who'd abandon his sheep with a single "That'll do." Standard remedy for good-but-keen and part-trained alike is a hard down as the hander circles to the same side of the sheep as the dog. Keen dog won't happily down on the OR either. The dog who drops when he's almost off contact may not listen when worried of losing control. Donald

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On 7/24/2018 at 7:49 AM, Maja said:

As far as I know, the dog does a bad flank, you down it, and it has to down and stay.  You move to yo a position to where the dog has go towards the handler and away from the sheep in order to widen the flank, and if the dog does not have off-sheep recall, it will go in the opposite direction toward the balance and away from the handler.  .  

I see your point. Of course it is a rather gray area with dogs in training. I would regard a "recall of sheep", me calling the dog to me and walking away from the sheep together  without using a leash. Someting I accomplished with my current trainee, Seimur in a weirdly early stage (not my brilliance btw, he is very biddable).

Stopping a dog with a good down, and walking to him with his focus squarely on the sheep the whole time, even though he doesn't break the down to go to balance does not count as a "recall" in my book ;) .

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2 hours ago, Smalahundur said:

Stopping a dog with a good down, and walking to him with his focus squarely on the sheep the whole time, even though he doesn't break the down to go to balance does not count as a "recall" in my book ;) .

That's not at all what I was saying :) .  You down the dog that is in the middle of a bad flank, lets say at 4 o'clock. It has to down now, not 5 m later.  You go toward the dog, past the do and behind it. The bad flank is too tight so you are at 3 clock but wider than the dog, so the dog is at 10m radius from the sheep at 4 o'clock, and you are at 15 m radius at three o clock. Now, in order to make the dog come to you, the dog has to move away from the sheep and towards you. If the dog is hard to call off the sheep , it won't do it, but go the other way - toward the balance.   

One nifty technique I know is of there is a bad flank you down the dog and position yourself on this side of the dog  where you want it to go. And then wait. 

Eventually the dog thinks " what the blazes?" and turns its head to look at you and at this moment you give the flank command, and voila!  a byooteeful flank :D

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If you watch your first video listed...when you put pressure on the dog - step toward him, bend toward him, wave the stick.. to attempt to get him further off sheep  the dog pushed back.  every time.  pressure causes this - you push he pushes.  if you watch while you are walking opening up the area giving the dog room, taking pressure off his outruns are better.  No tail flipping, more relaxed.  

The sheep need to react and teach him when he is wrong, not simply stand by you.  There is no reason for him to do a wide outrun because of the sheep you are using and the fact that no matter where he is the sheep will be the same.  Might be fine sheep for a lesson or two but not what he needs now.

The distance from the sheep are due only to how the sheep and dog interact.  It is not a set distance.  

Where are you in Ohio?  Be happy to help you. Have clinics twice a year with Jack Knox coming to my place.

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32 minutes ago, denice said:

If you watch your first video listed...when you put pressure on the dog - step toward him, bend toward him, wave the stick.. to attempt to get him further off sheep  the dog pushed back.  every time.  pressure causes this - you push he pushes.  if you watch while you are walking opening up the area giving the dog room, taking pressure off his outruns are better.  No tail flipping, more relaxed.  

The sheep need to react and teach him when he is wrong, not simply stand by you.  There is no reason for him to do a wide outrun because of the sheep you are using and the fact that no matter where he is the sheep will be the same.  Might be fine sheep for a lesson or two but not what he needs now.

The distance from the sheep are due only to how the sheep and dog interact.  It is not a set distance.  

Where are you in Ohio?  Be happy to help you. Have clinics twice a year with Jack Knox coming to my place.

I am in the Akron area. are you in Ohio? and which kind of sheep do you suggest to use? I do not have much of a choice as I have to use the sheep that are available to me at the farm I'm going, but right now I'm using a mix a dog broke sheep (they call them test sheep) and lighter sheep. here they also have what they define trial sheep, that I assume are going to be much less dog broke.

I did notice that if I walk out of balance he does a better flank, as well as if I am close to the sheep. but if I send him from farther away the sheep start to move as soon as he starts to move.

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10 hours ago, Maja said:

That's not at all what I was saying :) .  You down the dog that is in the middle of a bad flank, lets say at 4 o'clock. It has to down now, not 5 m later.  You go toward the dog, past the do and behind it. The bad flank is too tight so you are at 3 clock but wider than the dog, so the dog is at 10m radius from the sheep at 4 o'clock, and you are at 15 m radius at three o clock. Now, in order to make the dog come to you, the dog has to move away from the sheep and towards you. If the dog is hard to call off the sheep , it won't do it, but go the other way - toward the balance.   

One nifty technique I know is of there is a bad flank you down the dog and position yourself on this side of the dog  where you want it to go. And then wait. 

Eventually the dog thinks " what the blazes?" and turns its head to look at you and at this moment you give the flank command, and voila!  a byooteeful flank :D

I should be behind the dog correct? so if he is at 4 o'clock, shouldn't I be at like 4:30 or so, to the side where I want to send him off again?

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I think I know the place you are training.  Nova?? 

The problem with sheep that are used by lots of different dogs is they learn staying next to people is safe.  They don't act like real sheep much of the time.  I am an hour outside cincy in Indiana. 

I think I saw you mention Derek, have you attended a clinic of his?  He came to WI years ago.  He does not put so much pressure on the dog rather he puts pressure on the ground.  He has great success with that concept.  I have used it with some dogs.  Mostly I would rather teach the dog to give when I ask/ correct them for being to tight rather than using pressure to try to keep the dog correct.  If the dog has the responsibility to do things correctly then he learns to think and use his instincts.  If you train mechanically and want to tell him every step then you have to know when and where the dog should be.  You have to read sheep better than the dog.  Not many people can do that.  

You can check out my web site www.clearfieldstockdogs.com

 

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12 hours ago, Luana said:

I should be behind the dog correct? so if he is at 4 o'clock, shouldn't I be at like 4:30 or so, to the side where I want to send him off again?

The dog is at 4 o clock,  if you want him to go on away , you would be at 3 o clock (roughly of course).  

The dog is at 4 o clock,  if you want him to go on comebye, , you would be at 5 o clock (roughly of course).  In the video I posted earlier, I do something like that, except the video shows how  stepping into the dog (the first time) can cause the dog to tighten (so wrong outcome), and stepping away from the dog, after it passes the handler, makes the dog go wider (so desired outcome). It does not utilize Derek's technique which is a bit different, but his also uses the idea of not creating the pressure directly at the dog.  

(I'm sorry I write in spurts due to time limitations right now.)

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18 hours ago, denice said:

I think I know the place you are training.  Nova?? 

The problem with sheep that are used by lots of different dogs is they learn staying next to people is safe.  They don't act like real sheep much of the time.  I am an hour outside cincy in Indiana. 

I think I saw you mention Derek, have you attended a clinic of his?  He came to WI years ago.  He does not put so much pressure on the dog rather he puts pressure on the ground.  He has great success with that concept.  I have used it with some dogs.  Mostly I would rather teach the dog to give when I ask/ correct them for being to tight rather than using pressure to try to keep the dog correct.  If the dog has the responsibility to do things correctly then he learns to think and use his instincts.  If you train mechanically and want to tell him every step then you have to know when and where the dog should be.  You have to read sheep better than the dog.  Not many people can do that.  

You can check out my web site www.clearfieldstockdogs.com

 

yes you are correct. the Farm is in Nova. I would love to attend a clinic with one of the best, if not the best handler in US but Indiana is too far for me, already going to Nova is a trip every weekend. I agree about the sheep, but my plan is to start to move to trial sheep as soon as I have a decent recall and then try a different farm that is about 50 minutes from me to expose him to other sheep.  At the farm where I started to train Spillo (unsuccessfully) the sheep were quite heavy and stubborn. this farm now is closed to any training because of high predatory occurrence (coyotes). but I'm planning to go back there as well. right now Nova is serving us well to establish control, which is my main objective at the moment.

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8 hours ago, Maja said:

The dog is at 4 o clock,  if you want him to go on away , you would be at 3 o clock (roughly of course).  

The dog is at 4 o clock,  if you want him to go on comebye, , you would be at 5 o clock (roughly of course).  In the video I posted earlier, I do something like that, except the video shows how  stepping into the dog (the first time) can cause the dog to tighten (so wrong outcome), and stepping away from the dog, after it passes the handler, makes the dog go wider (so desired outcome). It does not utilize Derek's technique which is a bit different, but his also uses the idea of not creating the pressure directly at the dog.  

(I'm sorry I write in spurts due to time limitations right now.)

I'll try all the variations and see what works best for us, I already anticipate he is going to blow me off on the recall ;-). this is my plan for next weekend.

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Good explanation Maja. I suppose this is what I have heard called Derek's "dangerous ground" method. I have been wondering about what was meant by that term. You and Donald made that clearer. It has also been my experience that stepping in/ pressuring the dog does not always yield the desired results.

I am just coming back in the house from a training session with Seimur. He still has a tendency to slice in at the top. I decided to experiment a little, positioning me like Maja describes (nothing new, like in the daisy wheel exercise  Vergil Holland describes). But now, instead of putting pressure on the dog I smithe the offending piece of ground  like a madman (feeling slightly silly :) ), and resend. It worked really well, after just a couple of times  he really widened out at the top.

I have no doubt we will need time to consolidate this but for now I am really satisfied with the effect of this approach. 

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