Jump to content
BC Boards

First time poster with two BC Questions


Recommended Posts

Totally agree with CptJack. We have lots of fosters who come through here who know nothing. "Ahht!" is one of the first things they learn, and they learn it means to stop doing whatever it is you're doing. Regardless of how you view the semantics of "no" vs a "correction" vs an "interrupter" with all of the above the dog stops the undesired behavior, correct? Stopping the undesired behavior by looking at you, getting out of trash, stopping their forward movement, what have you, IS offering new behavior that you theoretically reward. Certainly you want to do this without making the dog fearful of you.

 

With puppies who are chewing because they are teething, however, it can be very useful to offer them something that is ok to chew on which only further reinforces the desired behavior: "don't chew on that, but feel free to chew on this instead."

 

I didn't interpret any of the responses to mean "don't tell her no" but rather "don't confuse/frighten her by simply yelling at her without showing her what the correct behavior is". The correct behavior can absolutely be as simple as "stop what you are currently doing", and in my mind that is what a sharp "ah ah!" means. I interpreted some of the responses to mean that mindlessly saying "no" over and over again without rewarding the appropriate response will teach a pup nothing and possibly cause her shut down.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If "TL;DR" means what I think it means, I apologize for writing another long post.

 

I think Captain Jack was apologizing for the length of THEIR post by providing a brief summary at the end of their own. (My younger son replied to one of my emails once with TL:DR, which is the only reason why I know what it means).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and I reserve "no" for two things: (1) a casual, "no, we're not doing this" (as in, we're going into my office - are we first stopping off at the office down the hall where dog treats are always on offer? The dogs stop and look at me, expectantly, near the door to the Treat Lady. "No" means we don't have time today. Or I'm heading out the front door - "no" means "you're not coming with me"). They don't take it personally in either case, as it's offered casually. (2) "you just took a wrong flank". Except that more often than not, it means *I* just gave the wrong flank. It's intended to be offered as "make another choice". Again, I try to offer it as dispassionately as possible.

 

If I were interacting with a puppy biting on me, I'd be likely to yipe, and play would immediately cease. I'd *never* muzzle a puppy for this - it'll never learn bite inhibition that way.

 

Doing something really wrong (like chewing on the leg of a chair) would be greeted with a growly AACH! to get them to stop what they were doing - then I'd redirect them.

 

And crates are your best friend if you have a puppy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I like the sound "Oi!" as a corrector/interrupter. With different tones of voice, volume and intonations it can be very effective. It is also something that I do not say in normal use.

 

For me, I do have a "No" command, which is a "stop what you are doing right now". This may be used when they are about to do something unsafe, like enter a dangerous area, or pick up something dangerous.

 

We reached our fourth dog before we had a chewer (other than normal puppy teething issues). Antler has been a lifesaver,

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kiran is a heck of a chewer - and more of a biter than my previous dogs - , but Kiran is half ACD so it's very much expected.


I think actually a lot of people think all herders use their mouth/nipping to herd and it gets passed around as a general warning against the whole group. Then expanded to include being massive chewers. It is obviously not universally applicable (gsds, aussies and ACDs are the only place I think it's actually much of a thing - could be wrong about that one, though.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

So reading this I have two trains of thought. First, Im not adverse to teaching a pup no. BUT Ive also noticed a trend among many pet owners that they dont give the pup anything else to do with the energy. So teaching no also requires good management and making a good choice available (no sense trying to teach pup no shoes when youve got 10 pair at pup level and nothing pup appropriate to choose).

 

I prefer to redirect on to something else because Im a bit of a lazy housekeeper and I find if I consistently offer them a toy or a chew then they learn faster what to grab that they can keep. Plus I think that they learn quickly that these are what you grab and everything else is off limits.

Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI I have been following this with interest of course and learning. Our back porch heated and cooled with glass on 3 sides 15x20 ceramic tile floor has been pup proofed and Gina has a old leather shoe to chew on. She now gets crate time for trying to bite or growl at her people. Our porch looks like a puppy play ground!

 

She is also getting No, when she does something wrong and offered alternatives. She rarely gets No and its Not yelled but firm. Its interesting to read in your help section where both No and Ahh are offered as corrective stops.

 

I also made up a Flirt stick and she loves it. We are looking forward to the time when she picks up on fetching the ball and of course a Frisbee. The shake gallon jug with treats and dog food is another winner as far as Gina is concerned.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there ~ Super cute puppy! Congratulations! :)

I just wanted to echo a couple things. One, I also cannot agree with a muzzle for a 11 or 12 week old puppies. There is absolutely no need to muzzle a normal, healthy baby dog. They chew because they are teething and they continue teething for the next 6 months or so, and they chew to explore their world.

So, let her chew. Just don't ever give her a chance to chew the wrong things. Keep incorrect things out of her reach, provide her with tons of the correct chewie toys, and use x-pens and/or child gates to keep her out of rooms you don't want her in.

Prevention is the very best tool. I spent the first few months of my current 2 pups' lives here just telling them NO and stuffing a proper toy in their mouths. Made it much easier on our furniture and rugs - and did I mention using x-pens? I might not have a house left standing if I didn't have x-pens to corral my two darlings when little, so I could take time to do laundry or tend to chores or you know have a life. :P

Lastly, be wary of leaving a small pup outside alone. You'd have to be 100% certain she could not dig or chew an escape, you'd have to be 100% certain nothing and no one could get in, and with winter coming on, her small body will not be able to regulate against cold temperatures. There's just not enough furnace in her little frame to generate adequate heat. So, bear that in mind whatever you decide. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

:) Our yard was well escape proofed thanks to our use of concrete and other means when we had our lab. Gina is working on her Digging 101 class, small amounts of dirt are flying.

 

When she is good, No is seldom needed and she is provided an alternative toy from the above list. Getting better day by day.

 

Muzzle is only used when needed, usually on visits to see my mother in law in the care center. Gina has brought joy to that ladies life and usually is so good. Thanks for the help.

 

Yes we do tend to spoil our dogs, does not everyone?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having to put a muzzle on a dog so she can safely visit in a nursing home says to me that the pup isn't mature enough for that kind of activity.

 

There's a reason that most if not all therapy dog registries require a dog to be at least a year old before it can be certified.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised the facility allows this. This pup could do as much damage to an elderly person's skin with her nails as she can with her teeth. (Ask me how I know.) Are you also putting booties on her?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Muzzle is on per my post above. No the care center hasn't concerns, why do you?

I have never seen so many nervous Nellies. For the record its Assisted Living and they bring dogs or puppies in all the time without issues.

 

I just want to add that I am 74 years old and I may be new here, but I am on many, many different Forums and User Groups. Plus I had a very successful working career not as a dog trainer however. I ran a Department when I was teaching full time the past 12 years, I was considered competent.

 

When I posted about the positive results of our dog / puppy visiting my mother in law I did not expect to be attacked with so many negative comments. Read back in this Thread and read the negative feedback and arguing about the use of the word No for Pete's sake! Gee whiz folks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Muzzles on young puppies not properly acclimated to them can create a life time of issues - and that's outside the problems of frustration of not being ABLE to mouth, and potential to form HORRIBLY negative associations to being around people. Ie: It's like the reverse of positive socialization; it's likely to cause negative associations, be a bad experience to the puppy and lead to behavioral consequences you're not going to like down the road.


Also frankly any pup who is still inclined to mouth is probably also still

A-) Not housebroken entirely

B-) Not fully vaccinated

C-) Likely to jump. And nails do as much damage to fragile older people's skin as teeth.

 

Basically it's just all around bad for both the old people and the puppy. No one wins here, nothing positive is gained, at all, but you risk a whole lot of bad.


We're not "Nervous Nellies" . We just recognize 'bad idea' when we see one. And this? Is not just a bad idea it's a terrible idea.

 

PARTICULARLY with a puppy who is growling when you handle her, per your other thread!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Chiming in here for the first time after having read this thread entirely.

 

I cannot help wondering why the original poster keeps deleting his posts.....

 

I don't think we are Nervous Nellies, although I can see how a newcomer might get that impression.

Instead, what I am, and others here are, is what I call a Contingency Thinker.

 

In other words, I and some of the others here tend to think things that concern our dogs (and most likely everything else as well) through to all of the possible outcomes. Doing this isn't negative or assuming the worst or being nervous. It is simply a way of being aware of all the possibilities, and most especially when you are dealing with a puppy there are a whole lot of possibilities. If you think ahead to what might happen if this, and if that, then you can prevent a great deal of trouble for you and the puppy, and potentially also prevent tragedy.

 

All that any of us want is for every border collie to have a good home, and be happy with the person who is equally happy with her. We are trying to help.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Muzzle is on per my post above. No the care center hasn't concerns, why do you?

I have never seen so many nervous Nellies. For the record its Assisted Living and they bring dogs or puppies in all the time without issues.

 

I just want to add that I am 74 years old and I may be new here, but I am on many, many different Forums and User Groups. Plus I had a very successful working career not as a dog trainer however. I ran a Department when I was teaching full time the past 12 years, I was considered competent.

 

When I posted about the positive results of our dog / puppy visiting my mother in law I did not expect to be attacked with so many negative comments. Read back in this Thread and read the negative feedback and arguing about the use of the word No for Pete's sake! Gee whiz folks.

 

Just wanted to point out that there is not one uniform training point of view on this forum. It would be pretty dull if that were the case, and not really much of a discussion group.

 

It's quite unusual to muzzle a puppy. Young puppies encounter the world through their mouths, and I can understand people being concerned about possible negative effects of muzzling in the long run. I can also understand the opposite point of view -- that it's no big deal if used occasionally. I tend toward the second view, but only if the owner is able to read the pup's reactions accurately. Since not everyone is able to do this -- and not even everyone who thinks they are able to do this can do this -- it's not an "attack" for people to point out possible pitfalls to someone they don't know.

 

As for discussion about the word No, well, a lot of people are on these Boards because they are very interested in dog training and enjoy considering and discussing the fine points of it. To some people that's like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin -- a total waste of time. To others, it's part of working out how they can develop their training relationship with their dog to the max. One of the most interesting things I've ever observed was watching Kent Kuykendall -- an accomplished trainer and handler of working sheepdogs who can put a dog where he wants it to be and make it understand what he wants it to do from hundreds of yards away -- work out with a dog their mutual understanding of the meaning of the whistle commands he was going to be using. Before that, I thought you just taught a dog what a command meant. But on that occasion I witnessed a feedback loop in which man and dog taught each other what they understood the commands to mean, and worked toward a common agreement. (ETA: For those who might be interested, a recent article in the science section of Wired refers to this phenomenon, and a couple of comments here on the Boards about that article are also worth reading.)

 

So please be patient with us. When people offer advice, consider it, and take what you find helpful at the moment and ignore the rest. If you're completely satisfied with the methods you're using now, nobody's going to keep you from continuing with them. If you're looking to find something that might work better, think about the suggestions offered. As d'Elle says, we are only trying to help.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OP, you asked for opinions and received thoughtful, knowledgeable responses. The fact that they do not validate YOUR opinions does not make us "nervous nellies" or "negative". Or argumentative; on the contrary posters on this board by and large are incredibly respectful of others' opinions, and there is certainly a wide range of opinions. Every once and while there does seem to be new posters who get angry that older posters don't agree with them and decide we're all out to get them...

 

If, instead of merely looking for an echo chamber to validate whatever opinions you already hold, you are indeed looking for advice on how best to guide your completely adorable pup into a healthy and well trained adult, then I highly encourage you to stick around and continue asking questions and read previous threads (the search function is great!). You will be most welcome. The catch, of course, is that you will learn nothing and Gina will not benefit if you are not able to do so with an open mind. If you think you have nothing to learn, then perhaps a discussion forum is not for you. We do, after all, like to discuss things here. ;)

 

Training a dog is far more nuanced than many people realize, and training a puppy as intelligent and sensitive as a Border Collie adds heaps of layers of nuance, finesse, and importance of timing. It can be a challenge, but one that is well worth it. Everyone here can learn something from everyone else, and there is a wealth of knowledge on these boards. For Gina's sake I hope you are able to take advantage of that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...