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Hi everyone

 

I signed up about four years ago when I got my Willow. Best damn dog I ever had. I guess you can call me a Collie convert. Before her I've only had a late childhood cocker, Shadow. That dumb dog was dumb as rocks by comparison, but I miss her still and always will.

 

In the beginning, before I got willow, I found this site very helpful. I had decided I wanted to raise a dog properly, and OBEDIENTLY. Naturally, I had many questions and needed much advise. This community helped me train an amazing dog with one small niggle that grew from slight to somewhat aggressive, to sometimes OMG levels.

 

I did try searching, and I hope my plea for advise is in the right discussion tab, but the word aggressive brought no results.

 

Willow is indeed leash trained but lives primarily off leash as I feel a dog should.

On walks into the city the leash is employed, though not always. She is quite good under voice control.

If only city park rangers would appreciate this.

But I digress...

When a dog comes up, Willow leashed or otherwise, doesn't necessarily act aggressive. Her tail is wagging and generally acts inquisitively. In fact often Willow is eager to greet the other dog, leash pulling towards them if we're, say, inside the brewery with other dogs.

What happens next it seems to me is mostly up the exterior dogs personality. If that dogs energy is low there are generally no problems. Very little nipping if any and certainly no lunge bites.

Yes I said aggressive lunge biting.

If the other dogs energy is high, and that includes harmless puppies that are generally little harmless energy fur balls, the teeth come out. Lips curl plenty and sometimes she chases off the dog usually clamping on a chunk of dog fur before sending them off whimpering if I'm lucky. Something a bit more serious on either side if I'm not.

 

Before you say it I took her to obedience classes as a puppy. Tons of exposure of all kinds, including plenty of time at dog parks when she was growing up.

Willow is now four and a half years old, and suffice it to say, we gave up on dog parks a while back.

I'd give anything to have a dog that plays with other dogs in a dog park but I could no longer risk having a dog get hurt--or being sued for that matter.

I just wish Willow was more manageable around other dogs. I really like breweries that allow dogs if I'm honest, they're my happy places.

Now I knew collies were generally a nippy breed, and as I pup I made sure to curb her trying to nip and heard me, but this is ridiculous.

I could really use some expertise here.

Maybe I'll try to take a vid or something next time we go out too.

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Tess is the same age as your dog and behaves exactly the same. She is extensively socialized, goes with me to loads of diferent places, gets lots of physical and mental exercise, trains advanced obedience and some dog sports.

 

There's dogs she loves and plays beautifully with, dogs she likes more and more as she gets to know them, dogs she ignores, dogs she atacks. She has never made another dog bleed, but she sure sounds like she wants to kill them when she puts her heart to it. She hates pushy in-your-face dogs that want to be friends no matter what. She generaly dislikes goldens, labs and pits for their over friendliness. She's awfull with small dogs and pupies. She's even worse with nervous scaredy dogs, she wants to flatten them to the ground. On the other hand, she loves free roaming dogs, maybe because they have tons of experience in learning other dogs and read her signals well.

 

Many borders are like my dog and your dog. Many aren't, and never will be, dog park material. I know I would never take Tess to a dog park. And yet, rare is the day she doesn't play with a dog. But I know her well and only allow interactions that I know she will apreciate.

 

Your dog doesn't really sound liike an agressive dog (although it's hard to impossible to form a valid opinion from a few lines of description). But he sounds like a fairly normal dog selective border. That's how many of them are.

 

I don't think of my dog as agressive or as having a problem. That's just who she is. I simply control her environment. Other dogs don't just get in her face, because I don't allow it. And she doesn't get to go to other dogs off leash, unless she knows and likes them or shows she's happy and comfortable with them (she's pretty easy to read, first 3 seconds near a new dog and I know exactly what she thinks of him).

 

Would I like to have a dog that is comfortable with all other dogs? Yep. But I don't. And thinking of her as a perfectly normal dog that has some quirks really helps. Because not all dogs are the same. And she has so many astounding qualities, it doesn't really matter in the long run.

 

She's the same with people, she loves many but hates it when a complete stranger looms over her, arms outstretched, wanting to pet her. She has shown teeth and growled. And she has the right not to love unwanted aproaches, so I just don't allow strangers to pet her, unless she says it's okay. And 30 seconds of me talking to a stranger makes hiim a friend in her eyes, so not a problem.

 

It's easier and fairer to work with the dog we have than to keep wanting it to be something else. Not saying that corrections aren't needed sometimes, and most of all, that training isn't needed. But at the end of the day, all dogs are diferent and have a right to that diference.

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Tess is the same age as your dog and behaves exactly the same. She is extensively socialized, goes with me to loads of diferent places, gets lots of physical and mental exercise, trains advanced obedience and some dog sports.

 

There's dogs she loves and plays beautifully with, dogs she likes more and more as she gets to know them, dogs she ignores, dogs she atacks. She has never made another dog bleed, but she sure sounds like she wants to kill them when she puts her heart to it. She hates pushy in-your-face dogs that want to be friends no matter what. She generaly dislikes goldens, labs and pits for their over friendliness. She's awfull with small dogs and pupies. She's even worse with nervous scaredy dogs, she wants to flatten them to the ground. On the other hand, she loves free roaming dogs, maybe because they have tons of experience in learning other dogs and read her signals well.

 

Many borders are like my dog and your dog. Many aren't, and never will be, dog park material. I know I would never take Tess to a dog park. And yet, rare is the day she doesn't play with a dog. But I know her well and only allow interactions that I know she will apreciate.

 

Your dog doesn't really sound liike an agressive dog (although it's hard to impossible to form a valid opinion from a few lines of description). But he sounds like a fairly normal dog selective border. That's how many of them are.

 

I don't think of my dog as agressive or as having a problem. That's just who she is. I simply control her environment. Other dogs don't just get in her face, because I don't allow it. And she doesn't get to go to other dogs off leash, unless she knows and likes them or shows she's happy and comfortable with them (she's pretty easy to read, first 3 seconds near a new dog and I know exactly what she thinks of him).

 

Would I like to have a dog that is comfortable with all other dogs? Yep. But I don't. And thinking of her as a perfectly normal dog that has some quirks really helps. Because not all dogs are the same. And she has so many astounding qualities, it doesn't really matter in the long run.

 

She's the same with people, she loves many but hates it when a complete stranger looms over her, arms outstretched, wanting to pet her. She has shown teeth and growled. And she has the right not to love unwanted aproaches, so I just don't allow strangers to pet her, unless she says it's okay. And 30 seconds of me talking to a stranger makes hiim a friend in her eyes, so not a problem.

 

It's easier and fairer to work with the dog we have than to keep wanting it to be something else. Not saying that corrections aren't needed sometimes, and most of all, that training isn't needed. But at the end of the day, all dogs are diferent and have a right to that diference.

Thank you Teresa and I agree

She is who she is and I love her for it. I'm just curious to see if there is something I could be doing to slowly nudge her temperament in a different direction. Honestly I've already half resigned myself to having a dog who just doesn't know how to play with her own species.

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This is well, a lot of dogs, especially border collies. My oldest male is not tolerant of rude, pushy, in your face dogs (that includes puppies). He too, may show initial interest in meeting a dog or puppy that is pulling on their leash or is whining to greet us, but we just keep walking. For the most part both my dogs ignore other dogs because they have learned that they don't need/have to/get to go up to them. If I were to allow him to greet one of these over the top dogs, he too would do an initial sniff then the teeth would be shown and if the dog doesn't get the idea to back up, then he too has nipped to get his point across.

 

Keep your dog on a leash (especially inside a business) and you shouldn't have problems. Levi goes all kinds of places with me on a daily basis and we don't let him meet dogs that fit the above description (we honestly rarely every let our 2 dogs greet strange dogs while out on leash). IMO, dogs should not be someone else's problem in public and should not be made to or allowed to greet every single dog they come across. No one should feel obligated to stop or talk to me because I want my dogs to meet theirs. I may be the minority in that, but if I am in public with my dogs then I am there to spend time/exercise with my dogs and not everyone else's. And of course, you can't always predict what the other dog will do. You can only control you and yours.

 

I also wanted to add that these type of interactions are clearly stressful for your dog, as they were for mine. It is better for everyone to keep your dog by your side and enjoy your time together instead of trying to make him greet dogs you know he isn't going to enjoy meeting. Again, if you show your dog that he does not have to interact with these dogs, he will likely relax and be fine in public. I constantly get praise from strangers on how well behaved or calm my dogs are in public. I look out for them and don't let them get into situations that are stressful (I too don't want to meet every stranger I see on the street).

If they only saw Levi's reaction if some big shepherd or doofy doodle thing came running up to his face, they would think he was 'aggressive" too.

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If the other dogs energy is high, and that includes harmless puppies that are generally little harmless energy fur balls, the teeth come out.

 

Puppies are obnoxious. Said with love, I do love puppies, but seriously when it comes to meeting other dogs, puppies are the worst. They jump, they're crazy, and they have sharp teeth.

 

My BC hates puppies, and I don't blame her. If a puppy greets her properly, she is fine, but I can tell from a mile away if we're going to have an issue, and I don't let it happen. Because it isn't fair that your dog is "Aggressive" and their dog is "just a puppy" and "just wants to say hi"

 

I highly recommend you read this article by Suzanne Clothier (https://suzanneclothier.com/article/just-wants-say-hi/) it totally changed how I interpreted how my dog behaves. Now if is is a crazy puppy, we walk on by.

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My boy is very tolerant of puppies & smaller dogs. He also likes greeting larger dogs who have good dog manners. He Does Not Like bouncy, in his face, let's wrestle dogs At All.

 

He's usually on leash when we meet other dogs. I watch him closely, and the least sign of tensing up I give his leash a little tug and say 'let's go' and he's happy to move along.

 

The article by S. Clothier is perfect. Most of the dog owning people i come across tend to be not-so-clued-in to dog to dog manners. I have recently encountered a few people who actually told me that their dog didnt' like other dogs. I thanked them for that.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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I'm going to be blunt so I'll apologize now (though I really don't think anyone should have to apologize for being direct so long as it isn't rude).

 

Willow is indeed leash trained but lives primarily off leash as I feel a dog should.
On walks into the city the leash is employed, though not always. She is quite good under voice control.
If only city park rangers would appreciate this....

 

...What happens next it seems to me is mostly up the exterior dogs personality. If that dogs energy is low there are generally no problems. Very little nipping if any and certainly no lunge bites.
Yes I said aggressive lunge biting.
If the other dogs energy is high, and that includes harmless puppies that are generally little harmless energy fur balls, the teeth come out. Lips curl plenty and sometimes she chases off the dog usually clamping on a chunk of dog fur before sending them off whimpering if I'm lucky. Something a bit more serious on either side if I'm not. (Emphasis added)

 

With what you've written, can you seriously claim to be confused about the city park rangers' not appreciating off leash dogs, especially ones like yours?

 

A dog who isn't good with other dogs, even if the other dogs are ill mannered and not well controlled, should absolutely never, ever be off leash in public. Period.

 

It's your responsibility to control your known dog aggressive dog anywhere and everywhere you could possibly encounter another dog. And since you can't always prevent the type of dogs Willow doesn't appreciate from approaching her, she should probably wear a muzzle when she's out and about.

 

Border collies are not uniformly a nippy breed. You've just got one with a short fuse who isn't under owner control.

 

I understand that you took her to obedience class as a puppy. It wasn't enough. Stop making excuses for her and consult a good behaviorist, someone who's certified in animal behavior who can help you deal with the issues you find yourself with now that have nothing to do with puppy obedience. Willow needs to learn some alternative behaviors rather than attacking dogs she doesn't like.

 

And you need to learn some alternative strategies to prevent her from going off on any dog she doesn't like.

 

If you continue on your present course you are likely to get sued sooner or later. Or worse, have your dog taken from you and euthanized.

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I agree with GentleLake--aggressive lunge biting and "something more serious" (?) is a bit beyond the pale, and way beyond what's acceptable from an off-leash dog. I only walk my dog in places where leashes are required because I've worked very hard with her to overcome her dog reactivity. She sometimes doesn't do well even with very friendly off-leash dogs. If I ran into your dog in a city park and she started aggressively biting mine, I would be terrified and furious. Some laws are there for a reason, you know?

 

As far as being able to take your dog places, you should think about what your goals are. Free play at the dog park? That's going to take a lot of work and may be impossible. Hanging out on leash at the local brewery? You might just need to get comfortable saying "my dog isn't friendly". As long as all dogs are on leash and the owners are paying attention, it shouldn't be an issue if you never let the dogs meet.

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I didn't read your original post very carefully the first time I came through. I just did, and I missed a LOT of info, my bad.

​I agree with Gentle Lake & MeMeow. I can also easily envision a situation where your dog bites a human who is trying to intervene. Not good.

 

I know it's difficult, I had a dog aggressive dog and made excuses, too. Bottom line~ it's not safe for other people and their dogs for your dog to be off leash in public. Muzzling is a good idea, as well.

 

A friend had a dog who bit other dogs, and also bit children. I gave her the best advice I could: a) get a good trainer, B) muzzle him and c) keep him away from children. She did none of these things, and would up surrendering him to Animal Control. They put him to death.

 

Please don't take that chance w/Willow.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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I agree with all advice given above completely.

And will add another thing.

When you take an aggressive dog off leash into a place where there are other people and dogs, you are making a huge mistake that could cost the life of your dog. Think about this very seriously.

 

Please consider other people and their dogs! If I am walking my dogs and an off-leash dog approaches us I become extremely stressed and so do my dogs. I am afraid, because the dog is not under direct control and I don't know what it will do.

Now, consider what this will do to someone who is afraid of dogs, or to a dog who is afraid of other dogs! Seriously, to allow this to happen is simply unacceptable.

 

As for Willow, consider this. If you are in a park or, say, a cocktail party, and some boorish loud pushy person or a rude obnoxious child starts leaning on you talking loudly in your face or trying to climb your leg or kiss you, how would you feel about it? You wouldn't like it. You might even yell or push the person away, or be very annoyed and offended that the child's mother allowed him to bother you like that.

 

This is what you are putting your dog through if you take her off leash into a place where there are other people and dogs.

This is what you are putting other people and other dogs through if you take her off leash where there are people and dogs.

 

Please don't continue to do this. Leash your dog. Start observing her very closely when you are out. See if you can recognize the signs that she is feeling stressed or overwhelmed. If this were my dog I would never take my eyes off her when we were out, except to keep from running into things. Close and constant observation can tell you a lot.

See a behaviorist and do some work with her.

But most of all, leash your dog.

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Hi there ~

I feel for your frustrations, especially as I have a 9 month old pup who may also grow up to be problematical around strange dogs. The sad fact is, some dogs are just wired a little differently than others and are not very social. Nature sometimes can't be entirely overcome by nurture. But please permit me to add a few responses below.



Willow is indeed leash trained but lives primarily off leash as I feel a dog should.
- I agree a dog deserves all the freedom it can responsibly and safely handle. However, it's your job to discern when she cannot rise to that safe responsibility and take control yourself. Leashes keep our dogs safe.


On walks into the city the leash is employed, though not always. She is quite good under voice control.
If only city park rangers would appreciate this.
- If regulations require a dog to be on leash, then city park rangers have every right to not appreciate a loose dog. Again, a leash keeps your dog safe. If a backfire spooks her into traffic or an aggressive dog chases her into the street, what then? Most of all, if another dog triggers a nasty response from your off-leash dog, you will catch the blame and your dog may suffer the consequences. Use the leash when you need to keep her safe.


When a dog comes up, Willow leashed or otherwise, doesn't necessarily act aggressive. Her tail is wagging and generally acts inquisitively. In fact often Willow is eager to greet the other dog, leash pulling towards them if we're, say, inside the brewery with other dogs.
- How certain are you that this tail wagging and seeming eagerness do not also contain anxiety and tension? An anxious or tense dog will sometimes head straight towards a perceived threat - and a wagging tail is NOT always an indicator of friendliness. Pay close attention to your dog's body language. Is she loose and soft and smiling with a loosely-wagging tail? Or is she tense, taut, pulling, eyes staring at the other dog, tail held high and wagging stiffly?

What happens next it seems to me is mostly up the exterior dogs personality. If that dogs energy is low there are generally no problems. Very little nipping if any and certainly no lunge bites.
Yes I said aggressive lunge biting.
If the other dogs energy is high, and that includes harmless puppies that are generally little harmless energy fur balls, the teeth come out. Lips curl plenty and sometimes she chases off the dog usually clamping on a chunk of dog fur before sending them off whimpering if I'm lucky. Something a bit more serious on either side if I'm not.
- That tells me all we need to know. She is not relaxed and just looking to make friends in these meetings. She is also quite anxious, worried about what she's going to encounter and if what she finds upsets her, "the teeth come out."

Your job, if you don't want to end up with a lawsuit or a vet bill, is to protect her from having to handle these encounters by herself. Yes, I'm saying "protect." She probably thinks she has to make these preemptive strikes before the other dog can do something scary. You need to step in and prevent the entire situation from happening.

She does not need to meet other dogs. She does not need to make new friends. I think it's a human misconception that dogs are supposed to be these amazingly social beings. We don't want to befriend everyone we see, so why should our dogs? Some dogs are not social. Some are very discriminate in whether or with whom they are social.

If you think about it, Willow is not really enjoying those encounters. Every time this happens, she is stressed and uncomfortable, and each time a bad incident occurs, it's reinforcing her sense that she must take care of the problem. She shouldn't have to. You will have to do it for her. Prevent meetings with those high energy dogs or wiggly puppies and if she is off leash, work on her obedience walking near you, so she doesn't end up 100 feet away with a face full of somebody else's boxer or pitty-cross.

Another thing to bear in mind is this: border collies can be terrible breed snobs. It's not at all uncommon for them to have an aversion to the more forward, upright, jolly and in-your-face dogs. Boxers, labs, bully breeds, Rotties, German shepherds - any of these forward-seeming breeds can trigger a border collie's dislike. They sometimes also have no use for the little yappy, snappy types and sometimes they are not comfortable with puppies. In short, border collies often don't like dogs who impinge on their personal space.

It's probably not for lack of anything you should have or could have done. It's mainly because border collies aren't just like other dogs. Some love everybody and everything, but some are just a little weird. And they're not always as good about being social or making friends like breeds such as Golden Retrievers or labs. ;)



Willow is now four and a half years old, and suffice it to say, we gave up on dog parks a while back.
- Good. From everything I've heard, dog parks can be one of the worst places for a border collie. There's just too much chaos and movement and too many other-breed dogs who don't respect another dog's personal space.

 


I'd give anything to have a dog that plays with other dogs in a dog park but I could no longer risk having a dog get hurt--or being sued for that matter.
- A wise decision. I have never owned a border collie whom I'd be comfortable with in a dog park. I can trust them around a trial field full of border collies, because they all speak the same canine "language." But the dynamics change hugely when other breeds are put in the mix, because they don't "speak" Border Collie.

I just wish Willow was more manageable around other dogs. I really like breweries that allow dogs if I'm honest, they're my happy places.
- Then bring her. But keep her on leash. Dogs should not be off-leash in any place of business, there's too much risk of all sorts of accidents, not the least being the dog tripping up a waiter. ;) Also, her being on leash will allow you to protect her from potentially unwanted attentions of other dogs.


Now I knew collies were generally a nippy breed, and as I pup I made sure to curb her trying to nip and heard me, but this is ridiculous.
I could really use some expertise here.
- Nope, border collies are not "nippy." They are, A . triggered by movement and noise, and B. jealous of their personal space. Border Collies are dogs bred for centuries to respond to and utilize body language and body pressures while in the course of moving livestock. So it pretty much fries their synapses when other dogs insist on barging into, barking into, bouncing into, sniffing into, wiggling into and otherwise intruding on a border collie's personal bubble. You are right about the other dogs' energy - too much of them is too much for her.

It definitely depends on the individual border collie as to how they respond to the pressure - or threat of pressure - from another dog. As I mentioned in the beginning, I have a 9 month old who would like to be a little fear aggressive. When he was small, he would shy way, but lately a few times his method has been to see a dog that scares him and then head straight for it. He seems to think if he can get in a preemptive growl or snap, he can stop the dog before it does anything to him. So, my job is to protect him, help him, watch his back - and keep him on leash when there are strange dogs nearby.


It's my hunch, not being there to actually see what's going on, that your dog feels like she has to handle every situation by herself. And that should be your job. My advice therefore is to be more proactive. Don't ask her to make friends, protect her from the approach of dogs whom you feel may set her off and in short, make sure you have her back.

At 4 years old, she may never become a truly friendly dog. But that's okay. She doesn't need to be friendly. She just has to not be aggressive. If you are a regular at certain places, then choose her meetings for those dogs and owners with whom you know she is compatible, and just practice your "leave it" with everyone else.

That's my outlook for my male pup. I don't care if he never makes new friends. I don't care if he never goes on a big romp at a dog park. I don't care if he's only friends with a dozen dogs in his whole life. I only care that he trusts me to protect him and watch his back, so that he will learn to not act out on any aggressive urges. In fact, I would be over the moon if he just grows up to learn he can totally ignore most of the other dogs in the world. After all, I'm not a big fan of crowds or parties myself. ;)

I hope this helps! :)




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If city law requires that she wear a leash than I guess I can't say anything there, except that I don't like leashes on my dogs either.

 

You said if the dog is low energy there isn't a problem. Her snapping at higher energy dogs that bounce around and get in her face is totally normal, and in my view, totally appropriate behavior from a dog.

I have a dog like this, and to protect myself, I keep her on leash. I try to prevent dogs and owners from coming up to her, but off leash dogs sometimes make it before I notice. Her cringing against my legs is sometimes when I notice, and chase it off. She has snapped a couple times, but never made contact. As long as my dog is on leash, if another dog gets bit it's the owner's fault for letting their dog invade my dog's personal space. She isn't a berserk, lunging barking thing, but only reacts of the dog is actually sniffing noses with her.

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  • 3 years later...

My 18 month old male border collie Javier shows aggression toward myself and my husband. He sill be sitting on the sofa with us on our lap just chilling and then out of nowhere he growls and lunges toward whomever he is sitting with. He has major food guarding aggression and we leave him alone when he eats, our female border collie Lucy knows to stay by her bowl and does not approach him if there is food or bones around. I find that easy to deal with even though I hate it but him being aggressive toward us is something else. It just comes out of nowhere and scares the heck out of me. I never know if I should let him up to sit with me because he is so lovable and sweet util the Cujo comes out. I am the dominant one so I can see him trying to push me but now he is doing it to my husband and its just scary. I don't want to get rid of him because I fear what other people would do to him abuse or put him down. I don't want that and feel he is still young enough to turn around. Any ideas or thoughts?????

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Hire the services of a qualified and certified dog behaviorist. What your dog is doing is not normal and is dangerous for both you and the dog. If he bites someone outside your family you could end up in court and your dog could end up on death row.  It sounds as if he has been doing this for a while, and he has not had any consequences  which means he has learned that snarling or biting and food guarding is OK. Get some professional help with this right away. 

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Hi - just saw Michelle R's post and part of it sounded familiar to me - dog lying chilling on sofa then suddenly growling and lunging, presumably with no warning or apparent cause. 

My 2 year old collie is genetically deaf and will exhibit a "startle" response under certain circumstances.  One of these is as he is beginning to fall asleep, as your dog may be doing on the sofa.  You've probably experienced it yourself - starting to fall asleep when something suddenly jolts you awake and for a moment you don't know where you are.  It's fairly common in deaf dogs, not suggesting your's is, but it sounds similar and may occur in dogs with OK hearing as well.  He'll growl and quickly lunge at whatever is nearby often with a snap of his jaws.  It's very quick, lasts only for a second or two, but as I know from experience, if you happen to be close, you could get hurt in the instant before he realizes where he is and that everything is OK.

I've no specialist knowledge here, only my own experience to go on, but as far as I'm concerned that "startle" reaction is not aggression.  If it lasts more than a second or two then it's something else and , yes, qualified help would be more appropriate.  Totally different from the food guarding.

If it is "startle" how do you deal with it ?  I live with a deaf dog so I suppose I've just gotten used to watching him as closely as he watches me and avoiding, as best we can, situations that might startle him.

 

  

 

    

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