2on-2off contact

[ness_bc]

Hey All,

 

I am sick of hit and miss contacts so was thinking I would try and train a 2on-2off. As my girl is getting to the end of her agility career its more as an experiment for any future dog so I thought I would have a go at teaching her.

 

She already has a very solid nose target.

 

I thought the progression would be to stick the target at the end of a piece of board or steps but then problem is she jumps off and then touches it. What have I missed.

 

We don't have proper contact equipment to practice on at home. Just a bit of plywood and steps.

 

Thanks,

 

Sally and Ness

[Kat's Dogs]

Plywood is fine. Dazzle does 2o/2o contacts.

 

Start with a leash, walk her down the "contact" and once she is in the position - tighten the leash so she can't go farther and give the reward (what is on the target plus verbal praise). If she falls off (or jumps off) simply lift the back paws back onto the position. This is just helping the dog. A clicker REALLY helps for teaching 2o/2o. If she is running down and just won't stop - rather then the just a leash what we do (usually for beginner crazy dogs) is put a baby gate or similar in front of where the dog will be so they HAVE to stop or run into it. But it sounds more like you just need a leash to stop her before she walks her back feet off.

 

On a side note, there is more and more talk about the dangers of 2o/2o contacts. It is not really a good position for a dog's body to be in and can put strain on their back. You said she is getting to the end of her career - if it is because of age, I would not suggest teaching these contacts. I did a lot of work with Dazzle to get her to do the 2o/2o position as low on the contact as possible so she doesnt have to be in such a strange position, so she more just has her back paws on the very edge of the equipment. But that is hard to get, and really hard when you just start teaching these contacts. ORTO contacts, running contacts, or 4 on the floor contacts are safer for the dog. So if she is a larger dog, or an older dog - I don't suggest teaching these contacts as a first choice.

[ness_bc]

Hmm we are behind the times at our club - most just have hope and pray contacts ROFL. I only have access to proper contact equipment once a week so didn't think running contacts would be a good idea. The only other variation here would be 2o/2o. Nobody else uses any other variation. She isn't a big BC - about 30lbs (15kg) but she has just turned 6 so yes the reason I am thinking she is near the end is because of that. She isn't super fast but enjoys her agility still. Do you have any explanations for teaching the other types then and which would you recommend.

 

I just want to experiment a bit so I am in a better position when it comes time to teach a new puppy.

 

ETA. She is clicker trained.

[ness_bc]

I was playing around with getting her to drop on the end because at least she was keeping her backside on the piece of board.

 

It was only on a slight slope with a step holding it up.

[airbear]

Wick learned her 2o/2o completely away from contact equipment. We followed Susan Garrett's stair method: Second article from the top, minus the clicker bit as I am not a clicker trainer (I tried, didn't work for us).

 

Once she can give you the correct position on cue (whether it's stairs, a park bench, a tree stump, what have you) you can introduce the command on equipment. Wick is a huge fan of her 2o/2o position because she is a weird dog - she will give it to me anywhere (although lately she has been thinking it's optional on the frame! Stupid quick releases ):

 

On a tree stump:

 

On a DW (well, 1o/3o):

[Tassie]

Hi Sally - (is it hot in Adelaide?)

 

We seem to be having luck with putting the target down just off the end of the contact - a bit further out for the A frame - about 1 foot off the end of the DW. I'm pairing the target touch with the cue 'touch'. and then the release 'good'. This was what Mary Ray was teaching us at Camp Tailwaggers. She asks the dog for a wait before the release - then on course, just omits the wait and goes straight into the release. So you get what's effectively a running contact on course.

 

To deal with the jumping off problem - if you have food on the target, then I'd only do it with a buddy, who can snatch the food off the target. If you're clicking, then withhold the click if Ness jumps off. I'd also try different positions for the target so that you can find one which fits her stride pattern as she comes down.

 

Touch wood, it's been working for us. We've had a lot of off-course DQs lately, but no missed contacts, except for a couple of fly-offs off a very heavy see-saw at Warrnambool - in company with most of the other dogs there!

 

I'm thinking it would be worth trying what the people who went to the Rhonda Carter seminars heard about. As I understand it, she believes a lot of problems are release problems, so she has the dog sit (I think) on the ground at the end of the obstacle, and the handler goes back and runs past the contact, releasing the dog as s/he goes - I think. Check the Yahoo lists.

[Kat's Dogs]

I forgot to add that on all of Dazzle's 2o/2o contacts she must wait until I tell her to go to the next obstacle - so once she understood the Touch then we proofed her so she would hold the contact no matter what. This also helped her to make it every time - just knowing that she has to go and STAY there.

[ness_bc]

Thanks for the reply guys,

 

Yep Tassie its boiling hot in Adelaide. Neither Ness or I think much of the weather at present as its interfering with our UD training . As for it being a release problem since I have never trained a contact I can't really blame Ness for only occasionally hitting it.

 

Thanks for the Susan Garrett link airbear I was trying to look for it but couldn't find it written anywhere for free .

[Northof49]

Originally posted by ness_bc:

Hey All,

 

I am sick of hit and miss contacts so was thinking I would try and train a 2on-2off. As my girl is getting to the end of her agility career its more as an experiment for any future dog so I thought I would have a go at teaching her.

Just be prepared that 99% of the time, re-training contacts is not very successful - if a dog has been performing the contacts in a specific way for an extended period of time - in the excitement and stress of trialling, the dog will default to the previously learned behaviour which sounds like the old point and pray contact execution. Most people re-name the piece of equipment, as you are asking for a different behaviour to now be performed on it.

 

As well, in order to re-train anything in agility, you cannot re-train and trial at the same time. You need to be prepared to pull the dog from trialling for several months to try and get the new behaviour well established in your dog.

 

I am not saying don't try to re-train, just be realistic as to the outcomes.

 

Also, make sure you are satisfied that physically and mentally your should be doing 2o2o contacts.

 

Good luck

[Northof49]

Originally posted by ness_bc:

She isn't a big BC - about 30lbs (15kg) but she has just turned 6 so yes the reason I am thinking she is near the end is because of that. She isn't super fast but enjoys her agility still.

If she is only 6 that is when a lot of dogs are really in their prime for competing in agility. There is no reason that she should not be competing when she is 10/11/12 years old.

[BeezSK]

What we have done is make a rectangle box (we use the bracket thing for measuring a dog's height) to put at the bottom of a contact. You set it there and have the dog stay at one end of the contact while you go over to the other end then you call your dog over the obstacle. Reward them as soon as the front feet get in the box. If they miss have them go back up on the contact and try again. Once they are in the right position keep treating and rewarding. Eventually when they know where you want them you can wait longer amounts of time to treat.

This technique worked on a masters level dog with horrible contacts, within 2 weeks she had a perfect 2on/2off wait on every contact obstacle.

[Northof49]

Originally posted by BeezSK:

What we have done is make a rectangle box (we use the bracket thing for measuring a dog's height) to put at the bottom of a contact. You set it there and have the dog stay at one end of the contact while you go over to the other end then you call your dog over the obstacle. Reward them as soon as the front feet get in the box. If they miss have them go back up on the contact and try again. Once they are in the right position keep treating and rewarding. Eventually when they know where you want them you can wait longer amounts of time to treat.

This technique worked on a masters level dog with horrible contacts, within 2 weeks she had a perfect 2on/2off wait on every contact obstacle.

Two weeks of training is not going to guarantee that the dog is going to do this in competition - it takes way more than that - I have watched people re-train contacts for about 16 years now.

 

The other thing is whether or not the handler is going to maintain criteria in the ring, or settle for less because they want to try qualify in that run. If you take this dog and run the contact with it, and keep running by the dog, it probably is not going to stick the contact.

[MrSnappy]

I'm going to agree with Northof49. I retrained Tweed from a running contact to a 2o/2o and it took a year for him to reliably do them in a trial - even now he doesn't do it completely consistently.

 

I back chained Piper, which drove my instructor mad - she was not allowed to go over contacts for a long time, just do the 2o/2o. Hers is excellent. I also taught them both to "hit it" on the stairs outside of agility. And though Tweed is a Masters level dog, if he misses a contact in a trial we go over that obstacle again and again until he does it. Thank you patient judges

 

RDM

[Kat's Dogs]

I have re-trained a few things for Dazzle with no problem. As long as you are very consistent and proof very well, and at a trial you need to EXPECT the dog to do the behavior - then as long as you trained it right you should have a problem. I have done it, and know people that have done it. It isn't a one week thing for sure, but it isn't really hard either. Go for it!

[BeezSK]

We had a fun match on the weekend, not a full blown trial but full courses and full speed/timed runs at our normal trial venue. Training seemed to stick. Full-proof will be in February at the next trial I guess.

[Rosanne]

Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:

On a side note, there is more and more talk about the dangers of 2o/2o contacts. It is not really a good position for a dog's body to be in and can put strain on their back. ... ORTO contacts, running contacts, or 4 on the floor contacts are safer for the dog. So if she is a larger dog, or an older dog - I don't suggest teaching these contacts as a first choice.

Just wanted to mention that with a high-drive, fast dog, any position is going to be hard on their body. .. my very fast boy has full running contacts, and I think his a-frame behavior is very hard on his front end. He usually does a 3-stride a-frame (1 up, 1 over, 1 down), and the landing on the ground can be quite a shock to absorb.

I think the ORTO or setting the taret out farther as you suggested so that the dog comes down farther before stopping is the better way to go - it encourages them to still slow down and shift their weight back (which is what my dog does NOT do), but lessens the impact on the ground since they are not as vertical when they land.

[Kat's Dogs]

In terms of it being hard on the dog (and yes, what in Agility ISN'T hard on them?) I didn't really say it before, but the longer they hold the position the more that has any effect. So it doesn't matter so much in a trial, but while you are training 2o/2o and keeping the dog in that postition for awhile to proof the behavior is when you really need to be carefull about how high up on the contact their back paws are and how much their back is curving.

 

6 years isn't very old though, so you shouldn't have a problem with putting strain on her back as long as you are keeping an eye out.

[ness_bc]

Thanks for all the suggestions. As for pulling from trials we only enter about 5 trials a year if we are lucky so she doesn't get that many chances to practice the behaviour. So while she has been doing agility for ages she hasn't entered a ton of trials especially in the last 3 years.

 

What is the 1RTO method?

 

Last night I just got my clicker out after luring a few and waited to see what she would offer me on the board. In other words played 101 things to do with the board. It is only on a slight angle. Propped up on a wall that is about 3 bricks high. I took away the target at the bottom because she was getting frustrated at not getting clicked just for nose touching so started picking it up.

 

We got her onto the board and she started offering sits half way up the board. I withheld the click and she offered a 2o/2o drop on the bottom. To encourage the drop at the bottom I was placing food a bit out from the board and between her paws. Is there any way I can get the stand rather than the drop or should I just go with a drop. I don't think the drop would work particularly well on the scramble because of the angle.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

Sally and Ness

[Kat's Dogs]

The ORTO (One Rear Toe On) is when the dog only has one rear paw on the contact, and that one paw is way on the bottom of the contact. Because it is this way there is little to no strain on the dog's back once they are in their contact position, they are more or less just standing on the ground in a very natural position. You can train it in much the same was as the 2o/2o contacts but you are clicking/rewarding for 1o/3o instead! The main downside is that if the dog is excited they can accidtently run off the contact and end up just standing next to it - but that isn't so bad in a trial because the dog still got the contact, it just looks kind of funny.

 

As for the drop, if you don't click for it, it might just fade out. Dazzle used to always sit/lay on her contacts but stopped after the initial training stage and once we started actually doing them on courses. If you want to actually stop her from dropping, if you just put your hand (or foot) under her once she is in the 2o/2o to prevent her from dropping and click for the stand I bet you would lose the drop pretty fast. A drop would be a bit odd for the dog on the A-frame, but if you just left it I figure that she wouldn't try to drop on it anyway - then the only thing is that you have a gray area in your training and that can cause problems later on. To be consistent on all the contacts, I would just eliminate the drop for simplicity, but if she sits/downs while you are proofing the contact that would be OK (staying in that position can be tiring so if the dog is there for awhile they will usually go into a sit/down).

[ness_bc]

Yes a drop would be odd and I appreciate the angle we are working with is only slight so a drop is fairly comfortable. I could put my foot underneath but I was trying to remain out of the picture as I figured if she offered the behaviour it would become much more handler independant.

[Kat's Dogs]

Of course it would be better if she would offer the stand to you, but that might be hard because she is already used to dropping. I think that it would be fine for you to help once (and click for it) and then after that don't help anymore. Because it is such a big switch from what she was doing, I would help just the first time - give her something to go off of. Letting the dog do it independent is important, but I don't think that it is to the point that the dog gets frustrated. So if she isn't offering anything else it wouldn't be an awful thing to help her out.

[Rosanne]

Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:

In terms of it being hard on the dog (and yes, what in Agility ISN'T hard on them?) I didn't really say it before, but the longer they hold the position the more that has any effect. So it doesn't matter so much in a trial, but while you are training 2o/2o and keeping the dog in that postition for awhile to proof the behavior is when you really need to be carefull about how high up on the contact their back paws are and how much their back is curving.

Not that's its central to the thread, but I think usually it's the dogs that impact hard coming into this position that develop problems. My mother's dog takes a big, fast stride dropping in to position, rather like a lawn dart - she goes straight in to the ground, hard. Once she's there, I don't think standing there is really any stress on her. . .

 

But the OP's dog doesn't sound like she's THAT wild, so I doubt a stop-contact/2on2off will hurt her.