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Signs of Ball Possessiveness


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For those wondering, Shadow has been doing great and has made a lot of progress on recall and loose leash walking. She's now about 4.5 months old and has just about the best personality I could have asked for. She's at daycare with ~3-5 other dogs during the day, and has no aggression problems there. She'll go and take toys or bones when the others have left them and horde them on her bed, but she doesn't show any signs of aggression with the other pups.

 

Recently I started playing fetch with her in the creek at the dog park; I think she's already obsessed with it... She immediately wants to go down to the creek when we get there, and when we do go down she'll turn and stare at me like..."Throw it!" Before when I'd throw her ball it'd be in a field without other dogs around. She completely ignores the other dogs while we're playing fetch. One dog really wanted to play a few days ago and she started getting annoyed by it because she was busy! Since then she's started to air nip towards some dogs that get in her personal space while we're playing fetch. She hasn't bit any of them yet, but I'd really like to help her chill out a little, if possible, while we're doing this 'important task'.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

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I wouldn't play fetch every time you go there. She can't be the one telling you when it's time to play. You have to be the one who initiates it. Stop bringing the ball and only reintroduce it when she stops going straight to the creek and looking to play with it. That should break the habit. Then only bring it once in awhile. If she starts getting nippy, the game stops and I would leave. That should associate, you nip while we play, we leave.

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My four year old male is the same way with dogs he doesn't know. If we're out in an open field playing fetch his focus is on the ball, not play with other dogs he doesn't know. He's fine with strange dogs that approach him slow and soft but if they come at him fast he'll flash his teeth or snap. This I believe comes from a place of fear, not confidence so I do my best to protect and keep him distanced from dogs he doesn't already know. You might need to do the same.

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Border collies are very 'personal space' protective. And joking aside, I think they are just wired to be team & task oriented, so fetching a ball is very like work to them.

 

I stopped taking Gibbs to my local dog park for fetch because it just made him nervous. He very appropriately tried to let other dogs know he wasn't interested in playing with them. And with lots more people coming early in the mornings during summer months, I just gave up, and found a couple other venues.

 

You might be able to 'soften' her a little bit by keeping an eye on other dogs approaching her and intervening for her. As far as teaching her to be more accepting of other dogs interfering with her activities, I wouldn't hold out much hope. Perhaps others with more experience might have ideas, but none of my border collies so far has taken kindly to their games of fetch being interrupted.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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Tess also dislikes other dogs bothering her games with me. She's doing something important there, she has no patience for silly dogs wanting to play.

Like Ruth says, Tess also isn't able to learn to react diferently. It's who she is and very much a border thing. I send other dogs away and don't let them bother her, or otherwise stop the game and put away the toy when I see a dog coming. But I don't expect her to be friendly to dogs interupting her play with me. After all, one of the reasons I wanted a bc was this incredible orientation towards team and task. Border collies amazing characteristics come with a price.

 

I wouldn't call it ball possessiveness (it could be, of course, there's no saying without seeing it), But it sounds like the tipical border absolute concentration on what he's doing with his person, and that's got not much to do with ball possessiveness.

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My personal opinion is that dog parks are best for calm activities such as socializing with other dogs, walking, exploring, sniffing and so on.

 

Highly intense and focused activities like fetch just don't seem to work well in a group of strange dogs from all backgrounds who don't know each other. I would find another place to play fetch and use the dog park for calm strolling, exploring or to let her play with other dogs at their own pace. I don't see this as possessive ball behavior either. Just wrong setting/place for that kind of activity.

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More of the same, but Heidi also does not like dogs disturbing her games of fetch. I think it's partly a little Resource guarding of the ball, but even when they are sniffing her/trying to initiate play she'll ignore for a bit and then tell them to bugger off.

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My Jester was very serious about fetching whatever was thrown. He was convinced that it was his life's work, and some had to get done every day no matter what. He had zero patience with other dogs getting in his way while he was working on fetch. I never once considered this to be a problem that required intervention on my part.

 

I agree with others who have said that dog parks are not the place to play such games, especially with a border collie. It only leads to trouble.

 

When I brought in a foster dog, sometimes they would try to play with Jes or get the ball or frisbee when he was fetching. He always told them off in no uncertain terms. I never interfered, and very soon the other dog learned either to leave Jes alone when he was fetching or else developed his or her own version of the game which did not interfere with Jester. The latter is what Kit did and they played side-by-side very happily in this way for many years.

 

I suggest you don't play fetch with him when other dogs are around in the park. Find a different place, with no dogs, where you can throw something for your Shadow. Your yard would do fine if you have one. Jester didn't care how much space he had.....if you threw something three feet he was just as happy. I bet Shadow would feel the same way. Let the dog park be for other activities if you want to go there.

 

I personally am not a fan of dog parks at all and would never take my dog(s) to one.

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I echo what D'Elle says about 'side by side' vs. 'interrupting me doing my job'. My pack of 3, all at the Bridge now, had no problem at all playing fetch within the pack. Each dog had their own ball, and would follow its trajectory as it flew out of the chuckit. The few times I actually saw a dog pick up what I knew to be a ball thrown for another dog, the 'that's not MY ball' would get spit out in haste, and the search for the correct ball resumed.

 

But the whole interrupting thing was Just Not Done, at least by my border collies, once they had learned they each had their own ball to chase.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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attachicon.gifcreek.jpg

For those wondering, Shadow has been doing great and has made a lot of progress on recall and loose leash walking. She's now about 4.5 months old and has just about the best personality I could have asked for. She's at daycare with ~3-5 other dogs during the day, and has no aggression problems there. She'll go and take toys or bones when the others have left them and horde them on her bed, but she doesn't show any signs of aggression with the other pups.

 

Recently I started playing fetch with her in the creek at the dog park; I think she's already obsessed with it... She immediately wants to go down to the creek when we get there, and when we do go down she'll turn and stare at me like..."Throw it!" Before when I'd throw her ball it'd be in a field without other dogs around. She completely ignores the other dogs while we're playing fetch. One dog really wanted to play a few days ago and she started getting annoyed by it because she was busy! Since then she's started to air nip towards some dogs that get in her personal space while we're playing fetch. She hasn't bit any of them yet, but I'd really like to help her chill out a little, if possible, while we're doing this 'important task'.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

I'll mainly echo what others have already said. You get to say when - and if - you play fetch, not her. And I think playing fetch around dogs who are not part of her family is not a good idea.

 

If I were you, I'd just skip playing ball if any other dogs are anywhere near. Don't even get the ball out of the car. Border collies are very focused on whatever they think their "job" is and interruptions can lead to the snappish behavior you see. I think it would just be easier on everyone involved if you simply avoid the situation entirely and let her be among other dogs without the ball in the equation. Time enough to play fetch when other dogs are nowhere in the vicinity.

 

My two cents' worth, anyhow. :)

 

 

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Thanks everyone for your advice so far. Much of what you said I kind of suspected based on her behavior and my understanding of the breed's desire to work. At first I figured oh she just wants to do her job uninterrupted, but was then a little concerned when a friend (unfamiliar with the breed) was telling me her nipping like this was a bad sign...

 

We went to the dog park the other day; no ball and no creek this time. She did go stand by the gate waiting to be let down to play, but quickly listened each time I told her we weren't going. We'll probably keep ball play to a minimal there now, and only when I can make sure she's not interrupted by others. Thanks again.

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It was a surprise to find that Ben, my almost blind rescue enjoys fetch. He follows the sound of the ball as much as the shape. He also likes to get close to my feet and dives this way or that to intercept it if I kick it (I thought about setting up a little goal with kiddies skittles). He is extremely focussed and takes it all very seriously indeed. Other dogs don't bother him. Maybe because he is so fixated and doesn't see them anyway! That said my neighbour has a ball obsessed cocker spaniel which wouldn't hesitate to try to grab the ball so I wouldn't throw it while he is around.

Ben is a bit like Shadow in his obsession. If I have the ball with me, that is all he is bothered about. So I decided it would be better not to always take it. That way, he takes more interest in his surroundings and I avoid being viewed as his well trained human. :rolleyes:

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I see similar traits in my boy Mac, we occasionally play fetch at a dog park that is very close to my home. Literally the second Mac is inside the gate he is in crouched 'eye' position waiting for me to throw the ball. When he is playing (or working perhaps!) he shows absolutely no interest in other dogs and does get annoyed if they try to play while he is finding the ball. Interestingly if the other dogs are also chasing the ball he doesn't seem to mind as they are not bothering him! He has always been very timid around dogs he doesn't know so I actually think it has been quite good for him because when he is so focused on the ball he doesn't get so worried about all the other dogs around and it's helping him to realise other dogs aren't all bad. Will keep an eye out for any guarding behaviours though.

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Pineapple, why don't you try playing "soccer" with your blind dog?

 

It involves playing fetch with a large ball, even a beach ball, and having the dog retrieve it by pushing it along with his snout. You can even set up a little obstacle course for him to push the ball through to make it more exciting for him.

 

The person who adopted Kelso, my most "famous" foster dog, plays this game with him and I have seen video of him doing it, It is clear that he loves the game!

 

You could also try the same thing you are doing, whereby you boot the ball along with your foot, and he pushes it back, or farther along, only using a huge ball that he can see.

 

Just an idea.

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Thanks D'Elle

I tried him with a large, light ball which my old dog used to play with but he showed no interest - maybe because he couldn't grab it with his mouth and carry it - or toss it up in the air or make it squeak! But maybe I gave up too easily - will try again. I could certainly do with ideas. He is not interested in tug games and even though he is very food motivated, he has yet to work out the kong. :rolleyes:

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You might not even have to sacrifice a Kong if you put something really yummy in it. Most dogs can't resist liverwurst. Or cream cheese. Cut up some bits of hot dog and slather with one of those. Don't pack it too tightly at first. Make it easy to get it out and be rewarding.

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liverwurst=doggy crack

 

I have seen a dog who "isn't interested" in food or treats perk up and get a whole new attitude when it's liverwurst. I first tried it on Kelso, who had no interest in doggy treats, and since then have seen it liven things up for other dogs.

 

come to think of it, I need to get some and mix it with my Kit dog's food. She is 15 and a half and is getting pretty picky about her food. I haven't tried that yet.

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Well I won't write off his interest just yet as he is still surprising me.. We have had a heatwave and the river is low. Today he amazed me by paddling around (previously he wouldn't even dip a paw in water). Then he doubly amazed me by picking up a stick and playing with it. Ever since my old dog got a stick injury, I haven't encouraged it but it was nice to see.

None of this would have happened if I had had the ball because once he knows it's there, he is totally fixated. I can't get away with hiding it either because he can smell it

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  • 2 weeks later...

Its hard to take Shadow to other places besides the dog park because I'm in the middle of the city... I am starting to have second thoughts on taking her there at all, there's just so many things she can get away with at the dog park. And then there's always the fact that if I don't bring her ball, she'll find 2 or 3 right away laying around at the park. Another issue besides balls just laying around is that about 1 in 5 owners will have a ball to throw for their dog, and of course she thinks it's okay to butt right in.

 

She's started showing defensiveness for her ball at a park now. As she's growing and becoming more confident in herself its a bit more aggressive than the small nipping she was doing a few weeks back. If an unfamiliar dog approaches her while she's resting with her ball she'll become aggressive and openly show that she doesn't want them around.

 

There's only about one other place nearby where I might be able to throw her ball for her. I was wanting the dog park to be a place where she could socialize and play more, but I'm not confident we can make it that as she's easily able to play fetch anywhere with anyone. I'm also wanting her to not think she needs to do this everyday. I hide her ball while we're at home, otherwise she'll bring it to me and whine to play. I'm thinking of trying to spend more time with her working on other things like perhaps games and obedience. I've also contacted a herding instructor who we'll probably start working with in this upcoming month.

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Trick training can really keep those brilliant minds busy. Gibbs has had some odd back problems, no diagnosis but it was recommended I cut back his fetching by a lot. So he gets to fetch one or two days a week, and we work on silly tricks and behaviors the rest of the time.

 

There are tons of YouTube videos, Kikopup is a good place to start.

 

Good luck ~ you're doing the right thing by taking steps now to prevent trouble later on.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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I hear more and more [dog behaviorists, trainers and chiro/rehab specialists] that mindless ball-fetching is not good for dogs - either physically or behaviorally. A few games of controlled fetch is OK, but they are discouraging ball fetching as a form of exercise. So don't feel guilty if you have to give up fetch.

 

As Ruth said, trick-training is great. Also look into classes or free videos for teaching rally, freestyle (dancing with your dog), nosework, mind games, etc. All of these can help you develop a stronger bond with your dog than letting your dog think of you as her personal ball machine.

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Agree with the trick training as a solution.

Maybe a few throws with the ball could be her reward for a well-executed training session.

 

I found that with jester, indoor play was even more exciting to him, just throwing a soft toy in the living room.

 

There is also Musical Canine Freestyle. You dance with your dog. No actual dancing ability required, and it is really fun for both of you. Good bonding, too. Look up some videos on that. Maybe see if there's a group or club or class in your area.

 

If you do decide to continue with fetch as a play, you can always find a place to do it, even in a city.

 

I lived in LA with a fetch-loving border collie. He didn't care if I threw the ball or frisbee forty feet or four feet, it was all the same to him. So I had a series of places I could take him on different days and times of day. Some were just patches of grass the size of a living room, but that worked. Sometimes is was a school or playground at dawn. It was a challenge, because to have a dog off leash in these places, or in parks, was not legal. But at the right times of day no one was there.

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